The Bodyswap Theory

[Mr Ares]

No... Rand will win TG as Rand! Not MORIDIN! Their bond is useful because, perhaps Rand will be able to track him through it... and besides, Moridin is Ishamael, all he wants is Rand dead, but he wants to wait until after TG, so he can become the new DO...

What? No-one wants to become the new Shai'tan (or at least no-one mentioned in your post). Moridin wants to destroy the world, break the Wheel, kill time, end the universe, and so on. Just destruction. He doesn't want to kill Rand at the moment, he issued a do not kill order in KoD. He may want to kill him eventually, but it's not at the top of his wishlist at the moment. Presumably this has something to do with uncertainty as to what would happen to him if Rand died, because of the link.

[Mysterious]

I think that Moridin wants to convert Rand to the "Dard Side" not to kill him. Moridin actually believes in what he's fighting for and everything for him is a means to an end. Because Rand is the Champion of the Light Moridin might believe that he has some sort of direct connection to the Creator that can be exploited.

 

Just throwing my 2 cents worth

 

 

 

 

Mysterious

[ThebigeyeAm]

yeah i agree that rand cant win it as moridin that would suck balls.maybe they swap bodies then swap back all things point 2 this body swap dont they.maybe this swappin happenin after the bore is resealed?!?!this last books guna have to be huge to work

[billoumm7]

ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN BODDYSWAPING! there will be NO BODYSWAPING! AGGGH!

 

you people dont get it do you?!!! Rand is rand and will always be rand... even as lewis therin, he will be rand, not ishmael... (aka mordin)

 

GET THIS INTO YOUR HEADS! DAMN IT!

 

 

Edit: Watch your language, certain words are not allowed on DM.

/Maj

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Hey, I know this was a couple pages back, but if Min's viewings are tied to the soul and not the body, then how is it that she doesn't see further than the death of the body and on into their next lives??

[wconn1979]

no... rand will win TG as rand! not f...ing MORDIN! their bond is useful because, perhaps rand will be able to track him through it... and besides, mordin is ishmael (rand never killed him in tel.r.) all he wants is rand dead, but he wants to wait untill after TG, so he can become the new DO...

From http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/

Ba'alzamon attacks Rand in the Heart of the Stone trying to rip out his soul. Rand gets Callandor and chases Ba'alzamon through Tel'aran'rhiod. Rand finally kills him, stabbing him through the chest with Callandor. (TDR,Ch55)

After Rand slays Ishamael, the Great Lord captures his soul and gives him a new body and a new name, Moridin.

[deathgate]

Not sure Moridin's body is such a great catch. He has so much saa in his eyes he may be blind himself by the last battle. Maybe Rand has to leave to fight the Dark One and Logain uses a weave to make himself look like Rand to lead the rest of the forces. He gets killed and then everyone realizes who it was and he gets glory and death.  ;)

[billoumm7]

or rand could just put him in charge, and fight the DO one on one....

[benr]

I don't think Rand will fight the DO one on one, two on one, or any way.  He will attempt to re-seal the bore.  He may, however, fight some or many of the Foresaken...maybe even Moridin, which will be the scene of the body-swap, if it occurs (and with all of the foreshadowing, it seems likely it will, whether we want it or not).  I also don't think Rand will be able to hide himself from the DO; especially if the proximity is close to SG; the body-swap is a consequence of the weird relationship forged between Moridin and Rand, not a conscious decision.  It will, perhaps, fool some of the Forsaken.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Quite simply, it fits. After this i believe that Moridin in Rands body will escape, and the Dark One will be defeated. In the epilogue we will come to Moridin, hiding as a beggar, feeling despair, yet some hope that he may yet recover things. Alivia and Rand will approach and kill him. Rand is actually dead, in the sense that this world defines death: that his body is dead. Yet he lives, and the death and the living are concurrent. Alivia and Rand collaborated in the death. He blurred with another man, and one did live and one did die. Then there is the fact that i dont see our hero ending up as a beggar at any stage, and then there is the ongoing unhealable damage that RJ is inflicting on him.

 

The problem with this is that it really doesn't fit the "To live you must die" criteria because at this point Moridin is defeated and attemting to regroup and therefore is not a direct threat to Rand's life.  Therefore, in this scenerio Moridin's death is not necessary in order to Rand to continue living.  There is a prophacy that mentions that The Dragon's blood must be spilt upon the rocks of SG, and I think that this litterally means that Rand must die in order to defeat the Dark One.  If the bodyswap does occure I think it will involve Moridin entering into Rand's body and dying in his place on SG. It would a cool ironic twist if Moridin ends up dying because a certain wound that he, himself, put in Rands body comes open at the wrong time.  As to what Role Alivia will play I'm not completely sure.  Perhaps she will assist Rand in defeating Moridin after the bodyswap or perhaps she is a darkfriend and will inadvertently kill Moridin while thinking she is killing Rand.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

no... rand will win TG as rand! not f...ing MORDIN! their bond is useful because, perhaps rand will be able to track him through it... and besides, mordin is ishmael (rand never killed him in tel.r.) all he wants is rand dead, but he wants to wait untill after TG, so he can become the new DO

UNQUOTE

 

So Rand being alive after Tarmon Gaidon means Moridin gets promoted to Dark One status? Nah.

 

I dont think Moridin will be alive after Tarmon Gaidon. Remember the viewing Min had about Rand and someone else merging, and one lives and the other dies? At first everyone thoguht it was Lews Therin, but Lews Therin is already dead, so it must be Moridin. So either Rand dies or Moridin dies. I would love to see the bodyswap happen, and if it does I cant see anything else happening re that viewing, so one of em dies. Rands body dies with Moridins soul in it.

 

I would LOVE it if Rand, in Moridins body, somehow figures out where the next Forsaken meeting is, goes there as Moridin and acts as Moridin throughout the whole meeting and learns some good stuff. That would be as good a feat as Osan'gar being under Rands nose for ages.

[deathgate]

The problem with this is that it really doesn't fit the "To live you must die" criteria because at this point Moridin is defeated and attemting to regroup and therefore is not a direct threat to Rand's life.  Therefore, in this scenerio Moridin's death is not necessary in order to Rand to continue living.  There is a prophacy that mentions that The Dragon's blood must be spilt upon the rocks of SG, and I think that this litterally means that Rand must die in order to defeat the Dark One. 

 

Could Jordan use the old let someone (Rand) die but someone (Alivia) balefires whoever kills him so he can live again? Would be kind of cheap after Mat, Aviendha and Asmodean.

[Raistlin]

Could the body swap be to let Rand use the true source to seal the bore.

[Majsju]

Could the body swap be to let Rand use the true source to seal the bore.

 

The True Source is Saidin and saidar, so Rand is using it all the time... ;D

 

I suppose you mean the True Power. In that case, even if a bodyswap did happen (which it will not), Rand would not be able to use TP, since it requires direct permission from the DO, as well as a wish to use it.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Yes, but we've seen that the Dark One is not aware of everything, perhaps unable to see past the world of the physical and into peoples' thoughts. If that is the case, might Rand be able to enter the body of Moridin and be given access to the True Power by an ignorant Dark One? Of course this is just to revive the debate; I don't actually believe this will happen.

[Asmo]

Yes, but we've seen that the Dark One is not aware of everything, perhaps unable to see past the world of the physical and into peoples' thoughts. If that is the case, might Rand be able to enter the body of Moridin and be given access to the True Power by an ignorant Dark One? Of course this is just to revive the debate; I don't actually believe this will happen.

The Dark One may let Rand in Moridin's body access the True Power to do whatever he is supposed to intend to do, except, how would Rand know about it anyway? Unless Lews Therin instructs him in that, which seems unlikely - the man is frightened witless over things like sa'angreal and balefire and other male channelers, and the Dark One's power is in a league of its own when such things are concerned - presuming Lews even knows much about it in the first place. And at any rate, once he realizes what Rand is doing, the Dark One can go all like "STOP!!", and so much for it. Unless you suggest whatever Rand needs to do happens instantly. Unlikely, since just cleansing the taint took the better part of a day.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Could Jordan use the old let someone (Rand) die but someone (Alivia) balefires whoever kills him so he can live again? Would be kind of cheap after Mat, Aviendha and Asmodean

UNQUOTE

 

Alivia is going to help Rand die though, not make so its as if he didnt. Balefiring the person who killed Rand wont help Rand die, so I doubt that will happen.

[Asmo]

QUOTE

Could Jordan use the old let someone (Rand) die but someone (Alivia) balefires whoever kills him so he can live again? Would be kind of cheap after Mat, Aviendha and Asmodean

UNQUOTE

 

Alivia is going to help Rand die though, not make so its as if he didnt. Balefiring the person who killed Rand wont help Rand die, so I doubt that will happen.

 

Not to mention that with reality already dissipating, Balefire really isn't a good thing to use these days. I doubt anyone will resort to it again, at least from the Light. "Hey guys, we won the Last Battle, but we used too much Balefire and now the Pattern is unravelling and everything will plunge into total chaos. Darnit, better luck next time." *world explodes*

[Hybrid]

Saidin is the contributing factor of the link, which is likely why Moridin has given over its use entirely, something he never did before in all his three thousand years.

 

The impression I got was that the TP has some sort of negative effect on the world or reality.  The passage with the Watcher in aCoS says something like "to his senses, the world screamed in agony" or some such when Moridin Travels with the TP.  I always thought that this was for the increase in chaos or whatever.  I also got the impression that he was exclusively using the TP since his revival before the incident, but I have no evidence.  I personally think that some sort of merging theory is more likely than the bodyswap, especially your pet theory about the Moridin/beggar thing.  Also, I believe Rand will be in beggar-mode before TG after faking his death, and this ties into Egwene's vision: he is needed for TG, but the world is happy that he isn't around to mess up all the nations.  Why, I have no idea.

[Toy and Minion]

I can tell that about half the fans of WoT will be disappointed by the ending.  Half want Rand to die, half don't. (More or less).  RJ knew what he was doing. He had the ending down before EotW was finished.  It is set in stone; and people threatening to destroy a book because the ending isn't how they wanted it to be, isn't going to change that - they'll only be out the money they spent to buy the book.  When it comes out, read it and bathe in its glory.  :)

 

Now, as to the Bodyswap theory, it's a good one.  It has a lot backing it up, and it is the most concrete theory I've seen.  Does that mean it will happen to a certainty?  No.  And I doubt it will (or at least not like Luckers has stated).

 

And I have a beef with the Aliva part.  I don't see how her killing Morridin in Rand's body will signify as killing Rand.  I get the whole "death of the body" thing, but I just don't see that as fitting the bill.  I believe RJ had something far more surprising in store for us.

[Matrim DeLaneous]

CONCLUSION AND TIE IN

Now, thats all very good, and whatnot, but whats the ultimate tie in that i suggested was the reason i constructed this theory?

 

Quite simply, it fits. After this i believe that Moridin in Rands body will escape, and the Dark One will be defeated. In the epilogue we will come to Moridin, hiding as a beggar, feeling despair, yet some hope that he may yet recover things. Alivia and Rand will approach and kill him. Rand is actually dead, in the sense that this world defines death: that his body is dead. Yet he lives, and the death and the living are concurrent. Alivia and Rand collaborated in the death. He blurred with another man, and one did live and one did die. Then there is the fact that i dont see our hero ending up as a beggar at any stage, and then there is the ongoing unhealable damage that RJ is inflicting on him.

 

I dont nessasarily like the bodyswap. I just think it is the only thing that fits all the facts, and is the most likely to occur.

 

I've recently started a re-read of the series and found something in EOTW that seems to provide additional support.  Moreover, I didn't see any reference to this "Rand Dream" in the initial post from Luckers.  I didn't bring the chapter / page reference with me today, but to paraphrase:

 

Rand Mat & Thom heading south on Domon's riverboat after the Shadar Logoth escape.  Rand has a dream where he's in a maze being chased by Ba'alzamon.  The dream shifts to where Rand sees his own image in a bunch of Mirrors.  Then he sees Ba'alzamon's image as if it were his own... things blur, etc, etc.  In short, the two images meld together until there is one. 

 

(As it's like the 5th time I've read it, I truly believe there is more forshadowing in EOTW than in any other book in the series)

[Luckers]

It does seem to fit.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Hello everyone.

 

In a fit of pure randomness, I've decided to chime in here.

 

It is fairly well documented that, my friendship with Luckers notwithstanding (hello, by the way, Luckers) I am not a fan of the body-swap theory, so any objections/theories should be considered in that light.  That said, I've had some thoughts recently that might have bearing on the subject.

 

This may get involved ... and is certainly speculative, so bear with me.  ;D

 

So.

 

One of the problems that has always bugged me is this; the apparent stupidity of Shai'tan and his best buddy, Elan Morin Tedronai/Ishamael/Ba'alzamon/Moridin.  The crux of this alleged stupidity is this: why not just freaking kill Rand?

 

It seems clear that Ishamael could have done so at just about any time in the early books.  He knew where Rand was, and even if he wasn't 100 percent sure which of the three boys was the Dragon, he could easily have just done for all three and had it over with.  Yes, Rand beat him at the Eye, but he was using the Eye.  Yes, Rand beat him at Falme, but he had the Horn/Heroes who were somehow connected to his battle.  And yes, Rand beat him in Tear, but he had Callandor.  In between each of those encounters, surely Ishamael could have found SOME opportunity.

 

Lanfear I can understand.  She had romantic issues, and as some scientific studies indicate, love actually shuts down some parts of your brain (and is addictive, see: dopamine).  Be'lal I can understand.  He wanted Rand to get Callandor for him.  Aginor and Balthamel get a pass; they weren't 100 percent sure who was who, they were both half bonkers, and distracted by the Eye.  The rest probably didn't have a shot at him before Tear, and were more concerned with their own coming kingdoms anyway.  But Ba'alzamon is ultimately a pragmatist.  So why not just kill him?

 

Maybe, in order to really win, he needs Rand's soul separated from the Wheel.

 

Consider the encounter in Tear.

 

There is Rand, about to take Callandor.  Ba'alzamon clearly does not want that.  He makes no banter, no long taunting conversation as is his usual modus operandi.  Quoth Ba'alzamon:

 

"'Twice in this life I have offered you the chance to serve me living.  Twice you have refused, and wounded me.  Now you will serve the Lord of the Grave in death.  Die, Lews Therin Kinslayer.  Die, Rand al'Thor.  It is time for you to die.'"

 

... wait for it ...

 

"'I take your soul!'" (TDR ch 55)

 

And that is exactly what he tried to do.  His attack is described thus:

 

"Ba'alzamon's blow struck him [Rand] as he leapt, struck inside him, a ripping and crumpling, tearing something loose, trying to pull a part of him away."

 

Ba'alzamon isn't messing around here.  But he didn't try to kill Rand in any of the simpler but very effective ways that we know he could have, lightning, fire, balefire.  Any should have worked ... Rand didn't have time to stop him.  Instead, he tried to rip out his soul.

 

As interesting to me is the way in which Rand saved himself.  He wove nothing.  He simply grasped Callandor and filled himself with as much Power as he could hold.  The simple act of holding the Power, in sufficient quantity, was defense enough.

 

So, what was Ba'alzamon doing?  Exactly what he said he was doing: trying to take Rand's soul.  I think he was trying to SEPARATE Rand's soul from the Wheel.

 

Why wouldn't simple death be enough?  After all, the Dark One can access unwary souls after they die.  But the Dragon's soul doesn't go through the normal post-death process.  He is bound to the Wheel.  So maybe he had to be ripped from it before his soul could be made to serve the Dark One.

 

Why would simply holding the Source defend him from that?  The Source is the Power that turns the Wheel, so it is not impossible that simply holding the Power can strengthen a soul's bond to the Wheel.

 

(As a side note of interest, this would have implications for Birgitte, as well.  Her soul was ripped from the Wheel.  Healing could do nothing, or at least, do nothing more than Heal her body.  But the Warder bond ... which tied her soul to a soul holding the One Power ... saved her.  And now, she is apparently reconnecting or reconnected with the Wheel.)

 

If all that is so, then why hasn't Moridin tried such a direct approach since?  Rand can hold much more of the Power in himself than he could before unaided; he did not reach his full strength until after the events in Tear.  Also, after those events, he almost always has an angreal or sa'angreal nearby; he got the fat little man in Tear, and the access keys to the great sa'angreal before Moridin was back on the scene.

 

It was only after Rand had the power (and the Power) to truly threaten Ba'alzamon that Ba'alzamon in turn used "conventional" killing force.  Perhaps given the choice of death and a postponement of the final reckoning (by sending the Dragon soul back into its own normal cycle, still tied to the Wheel through a "conventional" death) a postponement seemed the least worst option.  But clearly, that was the next to last in the list of desirable outcomes from Ishy's standpoint.

 

Consider at this point ... what was Ishamael doing in the prologue of tEotW?  Perhaps he had come not to merely kill Lews Therin, but to take his soul.  And Lews Therin created just such a postponement by escaping into a "conventional" death.  (Consider Ishamael's final statement of that prologue in that light ...)

 

So ... what does all this have to do with the body-swap?

 

Moridin is a liar.  Let us consider that he may have intentionally "crossed the streams" in Shadar Logoth.

 

Yes, I know he said "I don't know what happened" when Rand asked "What happened there?"  But he's a liar.

 

Yes, I know he seemed genuinely irritated ... however, not only is acting a key part of lying, but forming the link was clearly an uncomfortable experience.  Maybe he was genuinely irritated ... but still did it on purpose.

 

But .. Moridin still seems genuinely eager to get rid of the bond!  Sure, but again, sometimes people do things that are irritating to themselves on purpose.  Consider pregnancy.  How many women have ever been eager to "get rid of this blasted thing in my belly", but got pregnant entirely on purpose, and really do love their kids?  Committed people are willing to do uncomfortable things for reasons they deem sufficient, but are still eager to get it over with.

 

But how could Moridin have set this all up?  Well, he clearly knew a lot about the developing situation regarding Rand and Sammael, and knew of Sammael's trap set in Shadar Logoth.  He also undoubtedly knew of Rand's penchant for using balefire.  Perhaps he put himself in a situation where he knew Rand would be pressed and very likely to use it, so that he could use that opportunity.  Relatively low risk, high reward.  If Rand didn't use balefire, then no bond would have formed, and Rand would remember Moridin as nothing more than some guy who helped him out in Shadar Logoth.  A strange occurrence, yes, but no reason for Rand to suspect him of being a channeler, much less one of the Forsaken.  The first "special" thing Moridin did cross the balefire streams.  After that, it probably didn't matter to him that Rand might come to be suspicious in time.  The die was cast.

 

But how does this help Moridin?  Because it has now connected his soul with Rand's, which may be a precursor to ripping it out.  Consider that the "bond" is somehow affecting Rand's ability to seize the Source, which may be his only defense against soul-ripping.

 

Perhaps ... just perhaps ... the possibly coming body-swap (and or other effect) is an unintended side effect of the procedure Moridin is using.  Whatever the Dark One has planned, it is really risky, according to Demandred.  Moridin is, by his own self-admission, trying to play both sides.  And capturing (not killing) the Fisher is apparently the key to victory.  So, maybe this is the risk: played right, the bond between Moridin and Rand can take out Rand's soul, giving Moridin possession of the "Fisher".  Played wrong ... something else happens, and Rand wins, maybe in Moridin's body.

 

Anyway ... its been fun galavanting off into speculation land again.  And no, this isn't my return party, just a nostalgic dropping by, a sort of, "Hello, I'm still alive, and I still like you guys."  I probably will be back more often later in the year as we approach the release of "A Memory of What All Our Theories Used to Be But Now Are Proven Wrong" (I hope).  But this is sort of my way of letting you know ... you never know ... I might be watching ... mwahahahaaaaa.

 

 

 

[Dmitri]

I've recently started a re-read of the series and found something in EOTW that seems to provide additional support. 

 

Good that you've found it, though better first read the thread - it was mentioned on page 4, not so far away.

 

[Thor]

I don't think so RAW, I think Ishamael was just trying to sever Rand.  Which is why the attack failed when Rand grabbed Calandor to strengthen his connection to the source.