The Bodyswap Theory

[anamul]

Kadere, sorry to disappoint you, but Rand actually dying in this age and being reborn in other age, as an explanation of "TO live you must die", is very lame and ridiculous.

First, the question wasn't asked in that context.In WOT everyone get born again in other age.

Second, according to Nicola's foretelling....Min, Elayane and Aviendha being with him and he being dead but still living, make your theory impossible.

 

Just because Harriet love a particular line, doesn't means she wants to implicate it in WOT. If she does, it will SUCK. There is a lot of interesting proverve and dialogue in English literature...that doesn't mean you have to or you can implement them where-ever you like despite the contradiction.Also it isn't Romeo and Julliet or some kind of Charles dickens novel.

 

Body swap theory has its merite....more than your Rand geting Reborn theory. No offense Pal, but I couldn't help but roar with lughter when I read it.

 

I don't care how it happens, as long as Moridin keeps his filthy hand off the trio(Elayne, Min and Aviendha). Come to think about it, what about the bond?

Is the warder bond is a bond to soul? or body?

If it is a bond to soul, then they will know instantly upon seeing Morridin.

[Kadere]

Well thanks anamul for missing the point of my post. I wasn't creating a new theory of what's going to happen. I have no idea what's going to happen, neither do any of the rest of us. The only people who know are Harriet, Wilson, Brandon Sanderson, and RJ's secretary.

 

The point of my post was that the all holy body swap theory, as it's being outlined by Luckers, has holes in it. There could very well be a body swap, obviously Rand and Moridin have a connection, obviously Rand is injured, does this mean there has to be a body swap? Maybe. But even if there is I don't believe it will happen the way Luckers says it will. And if it does that would really suck considering we'd then already know the ending.

 

The line that Harriet found in RJ's notes was written by RJ, not Harriet. It makes perfect sense in the context of the series where Rand touches everything with his Ta'vareness, and how all the books open with the wind. Will it be used in the series? I don't know. It seems likely, but that's up to RJ and Brandon. RJ was a southern writer and the way he wrote was in fact poetic, even if you can't see that.

 

The body swap theory does have some merit, I just don't believe it's the be all end all of the possible endings, and I think it has a bunch of holes, as I listed.

 

No offense oh pal, oh buddy, oh chum of mine.

[Llewin]

So where is the link to the discussion on possible theories on rand's death/not death? or to the debate on bodyswapping? ...since this is apparently not supposed to be it?

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Also, in Min's viewing, the two men merge, not swap.

UNQUOTE

 

I dont take that as strong evidence against if Im honest. While Mins viewings are accurate, it only gives her an image to go with. The viewings dont give her the full details. It is like a prophecy but with an image rather than words, and that means the viewing could be metaphoric just as much as a worded prophecy could be. A good example is in book 7 at the start in one of the prophecies about Rand it says "He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow." We all know that Rand wont physicallygo up to a mountain and say "Kneel!" and whatnot, its a metaphor. I think Mins viewings are the same in a way.

 

Even if that is wrong, which it very well may be, if the Bodyswap happens then it will be a merging of Rands soul with Moridins body, so it could easily fit Mins viewing.

 

It is obvious that Alivia will play a part in this if it happens though, and thats the only thing I cant fit into any of it. Unless of course, something else happens after the bodyswap.

[anamul]

Well, Kadere, Come and gone like the wind, can't happen, unless Rand dies completely, which is impossible according to all the viewings and foretelling we saw in WOT.

 

It could be that, no one other than Elayne, Aviendha and Min will know that he lives. So this poetic line could come from some one elses point of view. Like Egwene for instance.

 

If Rand actually dies, I am going to burn the book, thats a promise. The whole series will suck. Despite all the threat and hint, and "The last enemy to be destroyed is death" thingy, Rowling was compelled to keep Harry alive, otherwise the whole HP would have crashed from highest pinnacle to lowest.

 

If I want to read poetry or philosophy, I will rather read Robert Frost,or Shelly and the like or Plato and Aristotle.I am reading WOT to enjoy LOR type epic, not Romeo and Julliet.

 

Stephen king and some other people intervened with Rowling, when there was whispher about she might actually kill off Harry potter. I guess, they adviced her that it will be suicidal.

 

Also, it isn't GRRM or Steven Erikson. And Brandon Sanderson's writing may be poetric, but I don't think he is a fan of killing the main character in the End of a book or series. Take Elantris for instance.

 

Also we can assume that RJ have left instruction concerning Rands death and coming alive.I don't think he went through all the trouble to make him just simply drop death.

 

So whatever Sanderson want,he have to go by RJ's wish.

[Luckers]

My main problem with it is Min. Why, or better yet HOW, does Min look at Rand al'Thor in EotW and forsee MORIDIN'S future as a beggar? How does this work exactly? She doesn't see the future of the body, she sees the future of the person. I mean you're asking us to believe with absolute certainty that Min is seeing Ishamael's future, as Rand, in his body, as a beggar. Why then wouldn't she see RAND'S future in Moridin's body? I mean even that would make a little more sense here since she's looking at Rand.

 

Firstly, Moridin as the Rand-beggar is a pet theory, not nessasary in the actual reality of the bodyswap. And I'm not asking you believe anything, absolute certainty or mild pique.

 

As for Min's visions, we have no evidence that she sees only things of the soul. Rand's body is the physical reality that influences the pattern, and according to Moiraine she sees 'glimmers of the pattern'. Why on earth would she not percieve the realities of that bodies influence of future events?

 

I also don't see the necessity of having Alivia around when he wacks poor pathetic Moridin. She's suppose to help him die, and by doing that she goes with him to kill his old body? Why not send anybody else, or do himself now that he's got the awesomely young and strong body of Moridin? Wouldn't it almost make more sense for her to have something to do with the actual soul swapping body swap? Provided there is one at all. Killing Moridin isn't really helping him die, it's simply making sure that no one ever discovers Moridin.

 

Firstly, the is no necessity for Alivia--no goal, no plan. But its stated by Min, so clearly it's a reality. And i don't see how it would involve her in the body swap--the link is there, it all that is needed, and if you don't believe that read KoD. Aside from which that would not be 'helping him die'.

 

As for your final point, i covered that directly in the post--death is a physical event in this world, the death of the body. She, by killing his body, helped him die. Read the post, it'll help with that question.

 

And then there's the viewing/foretelling/dream of Elayne, Min, and Aviendha standing around a funeral bier with Rand on it. I'm guessing in the world of this theory it means Rand's body. So wouldn't that mean that Elayne, Min, and Aviendha are all in the dark about the body swap? So they all decide to basically cry over Moridin. Why not tell them?

 

I dunno. To protect them maybe? Its hardly relevant--that they won't know is not an issue here, simply a reality of their lives.

 

And if it's actually Moridin's body with Rand in it, then wouldn't they see Moridin's body, not Rand's?

 

What? We're talking about Moridin in Rand's body--it'd look like Rand.

 

I mean you could say that basically he decided not to tell all his girlfriends so that no one would no he's alive. But if that's the case, living was practically worthless. He's now alive in Moridin's body yet he can't interact with his girls, he can't marry them, he can't interact with his kids. He's virtually a beggar who has to stay off the grid. UNLESS the funeral bier with Moridin in Rand's body on it ACTUALLY is taking place just because they don't know about it YET! In which case, that almost makes sense, but I can't understand why it was so important to have so many foretellings/viewings/ and dreams about. The whole thing seems very very very King Arthur, in which it really is indeed King Arthur with his sisters around him taking him to Babelyon. But if it's really Moridin, who really cares if he's dead?

 

Using capitals doesn't change the realities. You're building a bridge of straws, trying to pretend that the idea that he hides for a time after Tarmon Gai'don is outlandish. They had dreams a foretellings because it was a big event--The Dragon's soul swapped bodies, and everyone thought him dead.

 

He won't stay away from the girls, and i dislike your attempt to cast this theory in such idiotic extremes.

 

Speaking of caring if he's dead, I believe you stated in a previous thread about this same subject that you believed that Egwene's man who's dying but it's important that he doesn't die while others are building his funeral pyre was in fact Moridin in his beggar/Rand body state. But I don't get this at all. Why the heck is it at all important that Moridin doesn't die?

 

It's not. I'd say the dream speaks to Rand being hurt somewhere. Moridin in Rand's body is dead, and everyone believes that he is Rand, and that Rand is dead, yet out there Rand needs help--it explains why he didn't tell the girls.

 

I mean in the theory Rand and Alivia are going to go wack him anyway. So is it really important that Rand and Alivia don't do that? Cause that'll really suck when they do. And if you're actually saying it's Rand as the man a) Why didn't Egwene recognize him at all? b) Why didn't he look horribly injured from the missing hand and the light sensitivity? c) At what point is this? I mean if the man is Rand before the Last Battle and he's dying and they're already building his funeral pyre then Rand by the end of KoD really should be DYING, and he's not. If he gets worse to the point that he is DYING then how's he going to show up to Shayol Ghul at all? If it's after the last battle then by your theory it's Moridin, or it's Rand in Moridin's body, in which case a) again who cares if Moridin dies and b) if it's Rand in Moridin's body then he's already WON the Last Battle and he can croak when ever. Or, it's Rand in Moridin's body after the Last Battle and it's important he not die so that he can play bridge on sunday and see his kids. If it's Rand dying and somehow Egwene doesn't recognize him, maybe it's Rand "dying" and Alivia is there helping him into the other body.... don't know. Heck it could be someone totally different.

 

 

None of that is to do with me, or my theories.

 

I don't know. I think it would make more sense for Rand to just DIE after Tarmon Gai'don, or maybe act as a beggar for a while and then die, but actually DIE so that he can live again in another Age

 

That possibility is precluded by Niccola's foretelling. 'he who is dead, yet lives'. Concurrent realities. Rand's new life is immediate, actually concurrent with his death.

[Valinthros]

 

I don't think that there is any proof yet that Moridin is not using saidin at all.

 

It's commented on by the Forsaken.

 

However, if you closely...  Rand has the sickness only when he channels, this is after the fight in Shadar Logoth.  Suddenly, now it's happening when he ISNT channeling.  Also, I beleive at one point, Morridin's face is contorted with rage when Rand seizes Saidin.  This seems to suggest that the link that was formed has to do with reaching out to the true source, for both of them.  When Rand feels ill, and he's not channeling, this could be interpreted as Morridin reaching out to Saidin.

 

The forsaken comment on it;  do we have a confirmation that the forsaken watch Morridin's every move?  I dont think that's enough to say he isnt channeling Saidin, only to say he's not holding saidin every time a male forsaken see's him.  Amd if the link sickness goes both ways, it makes perfect sense that he would hold the true power only around other forsaken.  I dont think he would risk showing weakness if he had the choice.

 

Other than that, great post Luckers.  This is very close to what I put together myself from all the clues.

[Kadere]

Firstly, Moridin as the Rand-beggar is a pet theory, not nessasary in the actual reality of the bodyswap. And I'm not asking you believe anything, absolute certainty or mild pique.

 

As for Min's visions, we have no evidence that she sees only things of the soul. Rand's body is the physical reality that influences the pattern, and according to Moiraine she sees 'glimmers of the pattern'. Why on earth would she not percieve the realities of that bodies influence of future events?

 

As to your first point then I'm really glad that you add this pet theory that you don't necessarily believe into every thread about your theory.

 

As for Min's visions we have plenty of evidence that what she sees is connected to the soul. The thread of the pattern is connected to the soul. If she only had to look at the body to see the future of the body then she could look at dead guys and see just how deep their graves are going to be. When she looks at Siuan and Leane after they've been stilled she doesn't see as many auras around them because of the stilling. We know that the use of the Power is in part connected to the soul. So if what she saw was the future of their bodies she'd have an easier time seeing their futures after they were stilled.

 

I dunno. To protect them maybe? Its hardly relevant--that they won't know is not an issue here, simply a reality of their lives.

 

Hold that thought.

 

What? We're talking about Moridin in Rand's body--it'd look like Rand.

 

Actually I'm talking about Rand in Moridin's body and what happens there. Since according to your body swap they swap bodies.

 

Using capitals doesn't change the realities. You're building a bridge of straws, trying to pretend that the idea that he hides for a time after Tarmon Gai'don is outlandish. They had dreams a foretellings because it was a big event--The Dragon's soul swapped bodies, and everyone thought him dead.

 

He won't stay away from the girls, and i dislike your attempt to cast this theory in such idiotic extremes.

 

You mean all three of those words in capital letters used for emphasis? In your theory he's in Moridin's body which would mean he has to stay away from Elayne, Min, and Aviendha otherwise everyone would be wondering why these hussies are now groping this new guy right after Rand's death.

 

You say he won't stay away from his girls, yet earlier you said that they won't know and that it's not a big issue just a reality of their lives. In the  reality that you yourself have created with this theory it makes it virtually impossible for him to have a happy ever after because of the body swap. Nothing I wrote was outlandish or extreme, I was commenting on the outcome you created after the body swap. One part of your argument says he'll stay away from the girls, and now you say he won't. If he does then that would suck for him, if he doesn't no one will understand.

 

And I didn't create the "idiotic extremes" of this theory, and I'm a little shocked you get so defensive about it. It's just a theory, and it's your job to defend it, not tell me I'm playing unfair by disagreeing with it. If it's impolite of me not to agree, I think you should sanction a warning for everyone never to disagree with your holy body swap theory.

 

It's not. I'd say the dream speaks to Rand being hurt somewhere. Moridin in Rand's body is dead, and everyone believes that he is Rand, and that Rand is dead, yet out there Rand needs help--it explains why he didn't tell the girls.

 

You just said he tells the girls, so did he or didn't he?

 

None of that is to do with me, or my theories.

 

Actually it all does. Because you just stated that the man is Rand dying. So why didn't Egwene recognize him? b) Why didn't he look horribly injured from the missing hand and the light sensitivity? c) At what point is this? I mean if the man is Rand before the Last Battle and he's dying and they're already building his funeral pyre then Rand by the end of KoD really should be DYING, and he's not. If he gets worse to the point that he is DYING then how's he going to show up to Shayol Ghul at all? If it's after the last battle then by your theory it's Moridin, or it's Rand in Moridin's body, in which case a) again who cares if Moridin dies and b) if it's Rand in Moridin's body then he's already WON the Last Battle and he can croak when ever. Or, it's Rand in Moridin's body after the Last Battle and it's important he not die so that he can play bridge on sunday and see his kids. If it's Rand dying and somehow Egwene doesn't recognize him, maybe it's Rand "dying" and Alivia is there helping him into the other body....

 

That possibility is precluded by Niccola's foretelling. 'he who is dead, yet lives'. Concurrent realities. Rand's new life is immediate, actually concurrent with his death.

 

Only if you conclude that "he who is dead, yet lives" means what you think it means.

[RAND AL THOR]

Isn't it funny how people divide authors into:

 

GROUP A: Authors who kill their main characters!

and

GROUP B: Authors who keep their main characters alive!

 

Really weird. Perhaps authors should kill main characters in some books and keep them alive in others. This was of classifying is the strangest I have met so far. ;D

[Mr Ares]

This is fantasy. You have tyo include GROUP C: authors who kill their main character and bring him or her back from the dead!

[RAND AL THOR]

This is fantasy. You have tyo include GROUP C: authors who kill their main character and bring him or her back from the dead!

 

True true. But, personally, I have always disliked that event. Complete and utter death of the body followed by revival in ANY way is something that I dislike. Of course many people like it but I'm just stating my view. After a person is medically dead, it seems really strange that he may be revived (despite that this is FANTASY we are talking about). It won't be so in AMOL of course.

[havoc110]

MIN VIEWING: [Min]"Rand, I like Alivia, But she is going to kill you." [Rand replies]: "You said she was going to help me die… Those were your words." [WH: 25, Bonds, 483]

 

Luckers,

 

Thanks for the "Bodyswap for Dummies" summary.  If I didn't have my own theory, I would put some support in for this one.  The above quote is bothering me, though, and it has to do with any number of scenarios involving Avilia.

 

First:  The quote is an indirect reference.  Does the original converation where Min says "help Rand die" take place on-screen?

 

Second:  Min's viewings aren't words, they're images.  So why should we ignore her statment "She is going to kill you" in favor of her supposed original words "help him die".

It would seem like she would be the best expert on the feeling of her visions.

 

I've only used the EWoT viewings index, and a brief scan of that section of WH, but the fact that Luckers doesn't have more direct evidence on this viewing either leads me to believe that none exists.

 

So are there earlier and/or more direct references to this specific vision?

[Jakobus]

I haven't read them all in about a year.. so forgive my childish idea.

I think that the swap will occur during the last battle, Rand will be facing the DO, die, but in that moment Moridin and he will complete the link, internal battle occurs and Rand comes back as Moridin and finishes the job. I guess that goes with group C of authors.

That kinda goes with Min's viewing of them merging (the internal battle) and then Rand lays low as a beggar afterwords. But this is just what i thought of while reading the forums, probably not right but I can't wait for Brandon Sanderson to finish it... :)

[Dashiva]

 

If Rand actually dies, I am going to burn the book, thats a promise. The whole series will suck. Despite all the threat and hint, and "The last enemy to be destroyed is death" thingy, Rowling was compelled to keep Harry alive, otherwise the whole HP would have crashed from highest pinnacle to lowest.

 

 

 

 

Weve just had a couple of discussions on these boards about spoiling other book series.

 

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,31441.0.html

 

I feel i must give up reading these boards, because everything gets spoiled. what a shame.

[CUBAREY]

Weve just had a couple of discussions on these boards about spoiling other book series.

 

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,31441.0.html

 

I feel i must give up reading these boards, because everything gets spoiled. what a shame.

 

Well you cann't really expect people not to use plots from other books that have been in print for a consiserable time on boards. That you may want a "prestine" experience when you watch the last Potter movie but expecting others not to mention the books in a fatasy cite is a bit preposterous.

[Mr Ares]

First: The quote is an indirect reference.  Does the original converation where Min says "help Rand die" take place on-screen?

No

 

Second:  Min's viewings aren't words, they're images.  So why should we ignore her statment "She is going to kill you" in favor of her supposed original words "help him die"?

It would seem like she would be the best expert on the feeling of her visions.

Min's viewings are images, but when she knows what they mean, she knows. If she knows that a certain image means she will help him die, then she knows that Alivia will help Rand die. She sees no difference between "help him die" and "kill him". Also, one reason to listen to Rand over her revised interpretatio is that Rand has the ability to remain dipassionate about his own fate, while Min can't be as unfeeling about what will happen to him. Notice that she doesn't disagree with Rand's correction.

[Luckers]

As to your first point then I'm really glad that you add this pet theory that you don't necessarily believe into every thread about your theory.

 

I didn't say i don't believe it, i said its not nessasary to the bodyswap. And why wouldn't I add it? I like the idea... it has a certain poetry to it.

 

As for Min's visions we have plenty of evidence that what she sees is connected to the soul. The thread of the pattern is connected to the soul. If she only had to look at the body to see the future of the body then she could look at dead guys and see just how deep their graves are going to be. When she looks at Siuan and Leane after they've been stilled she doesn't see as many auras around them because of the stilling. We know that the use of the Power is in part connected to the soul. So if what she saw was the future of their bodies she'd have an easier time seeing their futures after they were stilled.

 

I agree completely--in point of fact my guess is that she actually sees some aspect of the soul. I would also point out that we also know that the bodies state can effect the soul, as seen by Rand's exposure to the taint causing the LTT manifestation. As such I have no problems with Min being able to percieve the future of Rand's body beyond when his soul leaves it.

 

But, if you want to argue that--i a do agree, its possible--it still doesn't really matter since she didn't actually see Rand as a beggar, she saw a beggars staff around Rand--it was Perrin who saw his face in the beggar dream, and Perrin's dreams indicates realities--metaphorical representations of events. Not the personal state of the image. So yes, there is no requirement for it.

 

Quote

What? We're talking about Moridin in Rand's body--it'd look like Rand.

 

Actually I'm talking about Rand in Moridin's body and what happens there. Since according to your body swap they swap bodies.

 

Perhaps some clarification then. Here is what you said in reguards to my beliefs on Egwene's dream about a funeral for a man who was not dead and must not die.

 

If it's after the last battle then by your theory it's Moridin, or it's Rand in Moridin's body, in which case a) again who cares if Moridin dies and b) if it's Rand in Moridin's body then he's already WON the Last Battle and he can croak when ever. Or, it's Rand in Moridin's body after the Last Battle and it's important he not die so that he can play bridge on sunday and see his kids.

 

So, i was replying to you, no--the body everyone is gathering to mourn and set on fire is Moridin in Rands body--it looks like Rand. Perhaps they have that body, perhaps they don't--the fact that there is a funeral pier suggests they do, but either way they see Mori-Rand's dead body, and think Rand is dead, so they are gathering to mourn him somewhere. Hence my comment to you. "We're talking about Moridin in Rands body. It looks like Rand". The body that Egwene sees, the one in the bed that is dying, is Rand in Moridin's body.

 

As for it being important that he not die, I rather doubt its so he can go play bridge. Which means only that Rand still has important things to do after Tarmon Gai'don.

 

And that last line was hardly nessasary. Quite clearly i know what a bodyswap entails.

 

In your theory he's in Moridin's body which would mean he has to stay away from Elayne, Min, and Aviendha otherwise everyone would be wondering why these hussies are now groping this new guy right after Rand's death.

 

In my theory he will stay away for a time, I agree. He doesn't have to--i doubt it would bother the women at all, they'd likely be relieved to know he was alive--the way it looks has nothing to do with that.

 

You say he won't stay away from his girls, yet earlier you said that they won't know and that it's not a big issue just a reality of their lives.

 

And he won't stay away from them indefinately. Eventually he will go to them--to my mind that is a very plausible reason for the strangeness of Aviendha's children--Rand's, yet not from his genetic material.

 

But yes, for a time they probably won't know. For a time they will believe him dead.

 

In the  reality that you yourself have created with this theory it makes it virtually impossible for him to have a happy ever after because of the body swap.

 

Oh, how so? He lives, he gains a degree of obscurity getting away from all the heavy expectations of the Dragon allowing him a more normal life. He eventually reunites with his lovely wives, and children... I'd term that a happy ever after--not that its like to last for ever after, thats not RJ's style, and Min's gonna die long before him anyway... but still, happy prospects lie for him down that path.

 

And I didn't create the "idiotic extremes" of this theory, and I'm a little shocked you get so defensive about it. It's just a theory, and it's your job to defend it, not tell me I'm playing unfair by disagreeing with it. If it's impolite of me not to agree, I think you should sanction a warning for everyone never to disagree with your holy body swap theory.

 

It's impolite to put words in my mouth, mate. Twisting my comments to make them sound absurd counts for that, at least as far as I'm concerned--key example, this 'does he tell the girls or doesn't he' thing. We all know i never suggested that Rand would stay away from the girls for the rest of eternity, you yourself listed the times when i state clearly that i don't think that.

 

So what, you suggest that because I also state that he stays away from the girls that im contradicting myself? I have too much respect for your intelligence to believe you meant that honestly, that it didn't simply occur to you that I meant exactly that, that he stays away from the girls for a time, and then later on approachs them.

 

I can only conclude you were being intentionally obtuse. Recasting my argument to make it look like it contradicts itself. I found that irritating, and yes i got defensive. For that I am sorry, and for the harshness of my response.

 

Disagree all you want, but leave what I wish to say for me to say.

 

Because you just stated that the man is Rand dying. So why didn't Egwene recognize him? b) Why didn't he look horribly injured from the missing hand and the light sensitivity? c) At what point is this? I mean if the man is Rand before the Last Battle and he's dying and they're already building his funeral pyre then Rand by the end of KoD really should be DYING, and he's not. If he gets worse to the point that he is DYING then how's he going to show up to Shayol Ghul at all? If it's after the last battle then by your theory it's Moridin, or it's Rand in Moridin's body, in which case a) again who cares if Moridin dies and b) if it's Rand in Moridin's body then he's already WON the Last Battle and he can croak when ever. Or, it's Rand in Moridin's body after the Last Battle and it's important he not die so that he can play bridge on sunday and see his kids. If it's Rand dying and somehow Egwene doesn't recognize him, maybe it's Rand "dying" and Alivia is there helping him into the other body....

 

a) Because it is Rand in Moridin's body. It doesn't look like him.

 

b) Moridin's body does not have that.

 

c) After Tarmon Gai'don.

 

d) Again, I doubt it involves playing bridge. Ergo we must assume that Rand still has important things to do--nothing to do with ruling or being the Dragon, I think. The dream of Logain stepping over Rand suggests he takes on those responsibilities. Nevertheless important.

 

Only if you conclude that "he who is dead, yet lives" means what you think it means.

 

Naturally.

 

 

[Surreall]

I like the way you have set it out, informative and i must say compelling

 

A couple of quick questions for you

 

a) Is the warder bond linked to the body or the soul. If it is linked to the soul, obviously this has direct effects on the final story as Min, Av and El will know instantly that Rand is no longer in Rands body. Obvious to see how this effects the rest of it. Although Mins Viewings and Eg's Dreams indicate that they do not know that Rand isnt in Rands body. Oh i dont know

 

b) With Moridin channeling Saidin when he and Rand are together, doesnt RJ explicity state that Rand doesnt FEEL him channelling at all, but only sees the effects. Like the balefire, and so wasnt it TP Balefire and Saidin Balefire that merged? I probably have completley the wrong end of the stick here, but it is rather important to your theory

 

Any just my two pence, i hope everyone is well and looking forward to the final book, and i HOPE an ending no one has come up with

 

Regards

[Luckers]

a) Is the warder bond linked to the body or the soul. If it is linked to the soul, obviously this has direct effects on the final story as Min, Av and El will know instantly that Rand is no longer in Rands body. Obvious to see how this effects the rest of it. Although Mins Viewings and Eg's Dreams indicate that they do not know that Rand isnt in Rands body. Oh i dont know

 

Unfortunately... no idea, but since it gets severed when a person gets stilled i doubt it would survive the bodyswap intact.

 

b) With Moridin channeling Saidin when he and Rand are together, doesnt RJ explicity state that Rand doesnt FEEL him channelling at all, but only sees the effects. Like the balefire, and so wasnt it TP Balefire and Saidin Balefire that merged? I probably have completley the wrong end of the stick here, but it is rather important to your theory

 

No, you are right, he was channeling the true power, yet despite that it is saidin that he stops touching, saidin that facilitates the link. I'm not sure why that is, to my mind it would have made more sense if it were the True Power--yet the in the books it is shown to be the case... and the books are god. :)

 

Btw is Surreall a reference to Surreal SaDiablo? I love that character.

[Razor]

Thread resurection

 

More evidence/foreshadowing of the body swap or at least merger theory...

 

On page 352 of US paperback edition:

 

Paraphrasing...When Rand is on Bayle Domon's Boat escaping Trollocs in TEoTW he dreams of being in a maze and being chased by Ba'alazeman.  Somehow Rand changes the maze to mirrors and then, I quote...

 

Ba'alazamon's image grew benind his, staring at him; not seeing, but staring still.  In every mirror, the flames of Ba'alazamon's face raged behind him, enveloping, consuming, merging.  He wanted to scream, but his throat was frozen.  There was only one face in those endless mirrors.  His own face.  Ba'alazamon's face.  One face.

[zep243]

Forgive me if this has been posted before, but I think everyone is missing the key phrases from a couple of these prophecies:

 

EGWENE DREAMING: Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet. [ACOS: 10, Unseen Eyes, 202]

 

A "paper puppet" means Rand's death isn't real.  If a bodyswapping takes place, it's a trick that Rand will play on the Dark One, assisted by Alivia.  I have thought for a while that this prophecy means that Logain will die in Rand's place as a "puppet".  Rand & Logain possibly switching bodies to fake his death, then Rand (as Logain) "steps" in while the DO's guard is down, thinking he's won, and Rand defeats him.

 

Look carefully at this quote:

 

EGWENE DREAMING: Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him. [TPOD: 15, Stronger than Written Law, 308]

 

To me, this points to some sort of trick.  May not be Logain, but definitely pre-meditated by Rand & Alivia.  My $0.02  ;)

[Luckers]

Unfortunately zep, other prophecies make his death clear--he must die to one degree or another.

 

Thats the reason behind the bodyswap theory, whilst some other theories answer specific prophecies, other prophecies preclude. The realities established by the entirety is the basis for the body swap.

 

And specifically on this, that the corpse crumbles could suggest that the corpse was not in fact Rand--i.e. the dead body housed moridin. It looked like Rand, but it crumbled away revealing that the reality it suggested was not real--that it wasn't Rand.

 

Razor, thats an interesting catch--RJ did love his foreshadow...

 

Although that being said he also loved his imagery... but still a good catch.

[ThebigeyeAm]

maybe its not so much as a bodyswap as a body takeover. rand will die, possibly at the hands of moridin, but his soul will enter moridins body via the link they share and take over the host body. also the rag over rands eyes dont neccessarily mean hes blind! maybe he doesn't want anyone to see what he sees,perhaps moridin can see what he sees via that link

[billoumm7]

no... rand will win TG as rand! not f...ing MORDIN! their bond is useful because, perhaps rand will be able to track him through it... and besides, mordin is ishmael (rand never killed him in tel.r.) all he wants is rand dead, but he wants to wait untill after TG, so he can become the new DO...

[Razor]

no... rand will win TG as rand! not f...ing MORDIN!

 

 

Of course he will not win it as MORDIN!  But the question is will he win it as MORIDIN?