Verin's Warder

[Corbett]

I was wondering if anybody has any idea where Verin's warder is at during TGH and TDR.

[Vemynal]

i think book 2 its mentioned she ditched him and he was throwing a fit over it

[Angel of Death]

Yep. Pretty much it. He is panicking that she left him.

[mikey sedai]

I really want Tomas to be some kind of kick ass uber Warder!

 

Verin's so cool and mysterious that she must have found a Warder with some special skills!

[benr]

I take this as yet another indication that Verin is BA.

[DemandredFO]

First of all, I do think there is more to Tomas than we've yet seen.  I mean with Verin as his AS there almost has to be.

Verin is NOT BA.  If she were, Mat, Hurin, and the Wonder Girls would have been dead long before they got to Tar Valon.  Shaitan wouldn't want the Horn of Valere to be blown for the light and that is exactly what will happen because Mat is still alive.

[Asmo]

First of all, I do think there is more to Tomas than we've yet seen.  I mean with Verin as his AS there almost has to be.

Verin is NOT BA.  If she were, Mat, Hurin, and the Wonder Girls would have been dead long before they got to Tar Valon.  Shaitan wouldn't want the Horn of Valere to be blown for the light and that is exactly what will happen because Mat is still alive.

 

Elza is Black Ajah, and Rand is alive because of her =/.

 

Don't try to figure out who is and who isn't a Darkfriend from simple things as such. We have a lot of evidence that advocates of the Shadow have conflicting goals more often than not. Lanfear helped Rand on multiple occasions. Ishamael saved Rand. The Dark One himself ordered Semirhage to thwart Sammael's attack on him. Sammael refused Carridin's offer to dispose of Mat because it would create hussle - couldn't it be the same with Verin?

 

However, I do agree that Verin is not Black Ajah - there's a lot of evidence pointing otherwise, and for such an important character at least more hints would have been given by now. But your reasoning is wrong - or rather, incomplete.

[benr]

Verin knows where the horn is, and is indeed probably on her way to get it.  Yes, she would need to get Mat out of the way to use it (I think.  Does dying and then coming back after balefire break your connection to the horn?), but if Black, then this can be done - so she thinks.  I think it very possible that she set up the whole Aiel attacking the AS (sorry, don't remember her name) which really set the rebel's embassy off the track, allowing Rand's abduction.  Her weaving of compulsion into the AS in the Wise Ones camp is very suspicious; when she joined Perrin before Dumai's Wells she smelled "furious" - at Rand's taking, or at the impending rescue?  I can't say for sure she is BA, but at best she has her own agenda, and I for one can't figure it out.

[Paviel]

It was the Black Ajah that orchestrated Rand's kidnapping, wasn't it?

 

And Verin thought that that was disastrous, and would have been even more disastrous if they had succeeded in bringing him to Tar Valon. "The price paid at Dumai's Wells was small enough, for avoiding that."

 

So whatever her agenda are, they conflicted at least once with those of the leader of the Black Ajah. Of course, she could still be serving the Dark One in her own way, but I find it... unlikely.

 

I don't think that the use of Compulsion necessarily makes her a Darkfriend, either. While Tower law prohibits it, it also prohibits the use of balefire and Unweaving, and that didn't stop Moiraine from using both...

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

what on earth is 'Unweaving'?

[CUBAREY]

I can't say for sure she is BA, but at best she has her own agenda, and I for one can't figure it out.

 

She definately has her own Agenda, bu so did Morraine and the Amerylin (and Morraine didn't even feel that she could trust the Amerilyn with all her plans at the beginning of book two. Cadsuanne also has her own Agenda. As does the Green who acompanied Verin to the Two Rivers and later bonded Rand. Its just that Verin has never even thought about what her Agenda in her POV's. Plus, she covers her real intent with the guise of an absented minded Brown, so some have concluded that she is Black. But most of us just think that she is a marvelously written character. Is she black? Probably not but her plots and and quite cold bloodedness (she is quite willing to use compulsion and to use poison too) make her an imposing character ( and my favorite Aides Sadie).

 

 

what on earth is 'Unweaving'?

 

Unraveling a weave, which is a talent AVI and the Wise Women have but which the Aides Sadie and the Forsaken (for that matter) thought impossible to acomplish safely.

 

[MatrixM]

Mat is still tied to the horn because he technically never died.

Elza is Black Ajah, and Rand is alive because of her =/.

That's because she believes that the Dark One can't escape without him.

Verin knows where the horn is, and is indeed probably on her way to get it.  Yes, she would need to get Mat out of the way to use it (I think.  Does dying and then coming back after balefire break your connection to the horn?), but if Black, then this can be done - so she thinks.  I think it very possible that she set up the whole Aiel attacking the AS (sorry, don't remember her name) which really set the rebel's embassy off the track, allowing Rand's abduction.  Her weaving of compulsion into the AS in the Wise Ones camp is very suspicious; when she joined Perrin before Dumai's Wells she smelled "furious" - at Rand's taking, or at the impending rescue?  I can't say for sure she is BA, but at best she has her own agenda, and I for one can't figure it out.

Why would she use it? She could just give it to Mat. And i thought she was furious because it ruined Rand's relations to the White Tower. As a result, she had to join the rebels (although she may have done that anyway). Or maybe she believed that if they got Rand he wouldn't be able to do what he was supposed to.

It was the Black Ajah that orchestrated Rand's kidnapping, wasn't it? [...] I don't think that the use of Compulsion necessarily makes her a Darkfriend, either. While Tower law prohibits it, it also prohibits the use of balefire and Unweaving, and that didn't stop Moiraine from using both...

Yes, Mesaana orchestrated the kidnapping. I was rather shocked that Verin used Compulsion as almost everybody finds it a horrible deed.

I don't remember Moiraine using unweaving, though.

[grump]

Maybe he's Demandred.  Is he free at all the right times?  HAH!!

[MatrixM]

If that's a real suggestion then i'll tell you now that Robert Jordan said that Demandred has not yet entered the scene.

[Paviel]

I don't remember Moiraine using unweaving, though.

 

Well, she definitely did something to erase the traces of her weavings towards the end of book 1, whereas all other Aes Sedai just let them unravel by themselves. I did type in haste, and perhaps in error; it is not clear that what she did was Unweaving, but on the other hand the Aes Sedai have not demonstrated any other way to erase the traces of a weaving...

 

Back on topic: Verin clearly has her own agenda, and she clearly didn't want Rand to be a prisoner in the White Tower. But, come to think of it, that could have had more to do with the possibility of Rand being in the White Tower (and causing ta'veren weirdness there) than him being a prisoner...

[CUBAREY]

Its also possible that She had somehow learned to invert a weave, or make a weave invisable to Shadowspawn.

[MatrixM]

Its also possible that She had somehow learned to invert a weave, or make a weave invisable to Shadowspawn.

What?

I don't remember Moiraine using unweaving, though.

 

Well, she definitely did something to erase the traces of her weavings towards the end of book 1, whereas all other Aes Sedai just let them unravel by themselves. I did type in haste, and perhaps in error; it is not clear that what she did was Unweaving, but on the other hand the Aes Sedai have not demonstrated any other way to erase the traces of a weaving...

 

Back on topic: Verin clearly has her own agenda, and she clearly didn't want Rand to be a prisoner in the White Tower. But, come to think of it, that could have had more to do with the possibility of Rand being in the White Tower (and causing ta'veren weirdness there) than him being a prisoner...

That sounds like a weak excuse to be furious to me...

[Mr Ares]

On the issue of whether or not what Moiraine did was Unweaving, you can see this previous argument on the topic: http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,19967.0.html

 

As to this:

I take this as yet another indication that Verin is BA.

Why? We have no real evidence indicating that she is BA.

[MatrixM]

I think he's sayin (referring to the Verin = BA) that Verin ran away from him so he wouldn't find out she was doing something BA related.

[Mr Ares]

I think he's sayin (referring to the Verin = BA) that Verin ran away from him so he wouldn't find out she was doing something BA related.

Which was? She ran off to join Ingtar, Rand, etc. She admits an interest in ta'veren in TSR. A reasonable suggestion for her leaving Tomas behind would be that she intended to draw strength from him through the bond (thus weakening him, so if he was with her he would end up slowing her down), and she wanted the strength so she could catch up with the ta'veren sooner. It's an explanation that doesn't require her to be BA, which is completely unsupported.

[benr]

I don't think Verin orchestrated Rand's kidnapping; she thought that Rand was creating chaos being out and about and feared him being tied to Elaida at the WT.  Even if black, she wouldn't for sure know Mesaana was imbedded in the tower - most of the BA don't. 

 

My thought was that she set up the attack on the Demira (a member of the rebels' embassy) by the Aiel.  She maneuvered the situation at Demira's recovery to send a message to Rand that would clearly infuriate him.  Someone set that attack up, and it was set up so that the embassy failed.  If not Verin, then who?  Verin pushed Merana aside as head of the embassy at that point.

 

As to the horn, if she is Black, she will not want Mat to blow the horn.  She will be getting it for the Shadow's use.  This will necessatate disposing of Mat.

 

As to evidence that she is Black, one of my main reasons is that I haven't seen enough evidence to the contrary.  There are many characters that we KNOW are on the side of the Light from their POVs, etc.  I don't count Verin among them.  Her actions are as easily explained as aiding the Shadow as anything else; that is my support. 

[Mr Ares]

I don't think Verin orchestrated Rand's kidnapping; she thought that Rand was creating chaos being out and about and feared him being tied to Elaida at the WT.  Even if black, she wouldn't for sure know Mesaana was imbedded in the tower - most of the BA don't.

 

My thought was that she set up the attack on the Demira (a member of the rebels' embassy) by the Aiel.  She maneuvered the situation at Demira's recovery to send a message to Rand that would clearly infuriate him.  Someone set that attack up, and it was set up so that the embassy failed.  If not Verin, then who?  Verin pushed Merana aside as head of the embassy at that point.

 

As to the horn, if she is Black, she will not want Mat to blow the horn.  She will be getting it for the Shadow's use. This will necessatate disposing of Mat.

 

As to evidence that she is Black, one of my main reasons is that I haven't seen enough evidence to the contrary. There are many characters that we KNOW are on the side of the Light from their POVs, etc. I don't count Verin among them. Her actions are as easily explained as aiding the Shadow as anything else; that is my support.

So you admit there is not one shred of evidence supporting her being black? And how do her actions benefit the Shadow? As for the embassy, how about Taim as the candidate? Awfully convenient that Demira should just decide to wander off down that particular alley, after such small provocation. An asha'man using Compulsion, perhaps? And driving a wedge between Rand and the Aes Sedai serves his purposes, and the blunt methodolgy is consistent with what we know of him. Plus, does Verin have the resources necessary for the attack? http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/1_dark/1.4_whats-up-dark/1.4.07_demira.html

[benr]

I guess if the described actions amount to not one shred of evidence for you, then I won't be convincing you.  For me, every time I read thru, her actions became more and more suspicious.  For most main characters, the POVs and actions have either placed them on one side or the other.  I still don't see Verin's thoughts or actions doing so, which means that she could be Black, or on the side of the Light.

 

As for Taim, at this point in the story he has followed Rand's edict to not confront AS (as far as we know), and chancing Rand's finding out about it seems a big risk.  Your suppositions about Taim's possible connection involve alot more speculation about action behind the scenes than mine.

 

As for her actions benefitting the Shadow:  1. There is ample evidence to suggest that the Shadow wants, maybe even needs, Rand to be at the Last Battle, so many of her actions help with that.  2. She has access to the Horn, and the potential to use it (or have someone use it) for the Shadow.  3. She is on the inside; a position of strength for the Shadow that isn't apparant anywhere else.

 

But of course, you may be right - my point is that it isn't at all beyond rational thought that Verin is BA, and as such she should be treated that way.  Unfortunately, I can't seem to communicate to our heroes to warn them...and they might dismiss it just as you have.

[Majsju]

A few things...

 

Verin has never used Compulsion, and nothing suggests she knows how to do it, quite the contrary. The weave some of you refer to as Compulsion is something she has puzzled out on her own, and it is quite far from actual Compulsion. Her weave can not force anyone to do something they would never do without the weave, she is only encouraging something that is already there. Also, she needs her subjects to trust her. Compare this to the real Compulsion we have seen, and you will see there is a huge difference.

 

Whether or not even such a weak weave as her is forbidden by Tower law, so what? There is no Oath demanding Tower law to be obeyed, Aes Sedai are just expected to follow it, and we have seen plenty of examples where individual Aes Sedai choses to ignore the law when there is need.

 

Also, while we do not know exactly what Verin encouraged the prisoners to do, Elzas POVs and the prisoner swearing oaths to rand gives quite a good hint. Now, giving Rand a bunch of loyal Aes Sedai seems to be of very little benefit to the Shadow.

 

It is also worth keeping in mind how she motivates her words about the weave not being harmful in her mind, so it is not a lie. A BA would of course not need to do this.

 

As for the Horn, Verin gives it to Siuan, so Siuan can do whatever she pleases with it. And on the road from falme to Tar valon, she has the best opportunity any single character in the series has had to kill Mat. She Heals him on a daily basis, she constantly tells the wonder girls the Healing might not be enough. Just a little slip, and mat is gone, and noone would suspect anything. But instead she keeps him alive, and helps him recover completely to run off into the great unknown. Seems like a very stupid plan if Verin had been a BA plotting to secure the Horn for the Shadow.

 

Verin is a mysterious character, true. But I see no actions that could raise suspicions about her being BA, quite the contrary.

[Corbett]

So we have no clue where her warder was.