Asmodean Suicide Theory

[benr]

Keep at it, folks - this is good stuff, and I'm not convinced either way here.  I started off thinking no way he killed himself, but have swung to I can't say for sure.  Two questions:

 

1. Anyone else disappear at the same time Asmo was snuffed?

2. Was there a mirror in the closet?

[Leopoled Boothe]

Although I would be a little disapointed if it turned out hat Asmo killed himself, I cannot deny that this theory does make alot of sense.  Yes, Asmo did elude to the possibility of killing himself rather than being captured by the DO, thus we do have the clues that RJ spoke of.  Moreover, one is led to assume that the person in the closet is the one who did in Asmo, and thus we assume that the person in the closet is someone that we have met before because that would be necessary for them to pass the intuativly obvious test.  However, if the person in the closet was not the killer then they need not pass the intuativly obvious test and therefore it could have been just about anybody in the closet.  Therefore, if Asmo did commit suicide I would guess that it was Shadar Haran in the closet.  SH is an extention of the DO and thus Asmo certainly would kill himself inorder to avoid being taken by him.  I not quite ready to jump on this bandwagon completely but Asmo will join my list of most likely suspects with currently consists of,

 

1. Graendal

2. Slayer

3. Lanfear

4. Asmodean

5. Taim

[cloglord]

1. Anyone else disappear at the same time Asmo was snuffed?

2. Was there a mirror in the closet?

 

1.  I'm not sure why it is relevant, but Lanfear, Lan, Moraine, and Ravhin all disapeared around this point in the series.  I'd point out that we had not seen Floran Gelb in a long time either.

 

2.  A mirror would have been destroyed by balefire, only cuendillar has stood up to balefire to this point.  Unless, you think Asmo was so ugly he killed himself with his face ;)?

[grump]

Rj said there were enough clues in the first 5 books to solve his death. Grendal is mentioned once in the 5th book, whereas Slayer makes 8-10 appearances in the first 5 books. With his described powers he has no trouble getting into or out of a locked room. Isem looks enough like Lan (who Asmo knows is supposed to be far away) to provoke a "YOU".  Grendal could state he was dead if Slayer had killed on her orders, as he is known to do errands for any of the chosen who call upon him. In fact any of the Chosen suspects including Lanfear could have put his death in motion, and used Slayer as the tool.  Since he is not listed in the poll by name, he is in the All others category and thus fits RJ's very few correct answers statement.

 

Just one persons opinion !

[Bob T Dwarf]

Except that when he's cataloguing his triumphs ( before killing the wrong people in Far Madding ), it's two AS who head his list.

 

If he'd killed Asmo, Asmo would be who he would mentally gloat about.

[benr]

1. Anyone else disappear at the same time Asmo was snuffed?

2. Was there a mirror in the closet?

 

1.  I'm not sure why it is relevant, but Lanfear, Lan, Moraine, and Ravhin all disapeared around this point in the series.  I'd point out that we had not seen Floran Gelb in a long time either.

 

2.  A mirror would have been destroyed by balefire, only cuendillar has stood up to balefire to this point.  Unless, you think Asmo was so ugly he killed himself with his face ;)?

 

1. No, it would basically have to be at the exact same time, and permanently.  Those you mentioned all have their disappearances explained. 

2. Yup, that's basically about it.  It seems to me that anyone in the closet with Asmo would have been destroyed by balefire, too (like the mirror mentioned), so we should have someone else to try and figure out where they went (see above).  Unless it was a giant cut out figure.

[cloglord]

I think I see now where you were going with those questions, but it doesn't fit with topic as I've laid it out.  Asmo doesn't kill the person in the closet and then commit suicide.  Asmo ,according to my theory, commits pre-emptive suicide to prevent his capture, and the mystery person in the closet leaves by the means they arrived.  No trace of either.

[grump]

remember RJ only left clues and round the corner pointers. We wouldn't be having this conversation if he was willing to address the central question. He simply describes the same closed room mystery with different players at least 2 other times.

 

Still only one persons opinion !

[mralexcummings]

Cloglord... you really stayed true to your name. I've wrote college papers smaller than that. That was insanely long. Congrats... I guess. :/

 

Also I think the big badass Fade dude killed Asmo

[Bob T Dwarf]

This may seem like a small point to some, but it's really a major part of why discussions about Asmo's death go nowhere.

 

First somebody makes a baseless assumption, then everybody goes along and starts trying to expand outward from that initial erroneous point.

 

We all know our own homes pretty thoroughly.  How often do you find your car keys in the first place you look?  Your glasses?  I can wander around here for ten minutes sometimes looking for where I left my coffee cup.  And, this isn't a big house.

 

All we know for sure is that Asmo intended to find some wine.  In a place with which he was totally unfamiliar.

 

Why does anyone assume he found a wine cupboard behind the first door he opened?  At random?

 

All we know for sure is that he opened a door and started to step through.  Anything could have been behind that door.  A linen closet.  A servant's hallway.  A sitting room.  A gateway to another dimension.

 

We simply don't know what was behind that door other than someone Asmo recognized.  And, if we're going to make any progress with any theory about how he died, we aint gonna get there by starting with erroneous assumptions.

[cloglord]

You're right Bob it could have been anything behind that door.  I'm not sure how its relevant beyond your point of unfounded assumptions, but you are right.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Another problem is well known ( if not totally reliable ) statements Jordan reportedly made at various signings.

 

One of those is the "roadkill" statement.  Obvious implication is that the meeting and the death were entirely accidental.  The killer had no intent to kill Asmo.  Asmo, despite other thoughts, had no intent to die.  He was determined to hang onto that "tuft of grass" for as long as he could.

 

Unfortunately, Asmo opened just the wrong door at just the wrong time and came face-to-face with someone who should not be there.  Presumably someone who needed to conceal his true identity.

 

That someone killed Asmo in a manner that made his death only partially undoable.  Why the Palace in Caemlyn was a place that made his death totally undoable is another question. ( the "how he died and where he died", statement )

 

Taken together those two widely reported but less than totally reliable reports of what Jordan had to say about the question make suicide unlikely in the extreme.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Unless we take Asmo's own words as pure bluster, we have reason to believe that Asmo did have the means.  He said that he planned to kill himself when he found out the the DO was loose, and he also expressed his knowledge of the torturous realities that faced him after his death.  To what point would he kill himself if he could not also ensure that the DO could not reclaim him?

 

I think what the actual quote was the he "planned to open his veins the moment the dark one broke free". So do you think he meant this in a literal sense? Because if he did I think that would sort of insinuate that he wouldn't be able to draw enough of the power to do any damage to himself.

[aevogt]

For starters one can't use the Power on oneself.

 

I believe this is because of the obvious problem of what happens when a weave you are creating affects you (because the channeling should also be affected, which means that the weave is not affecting you, which means that channeling isn't affected, etc.) I think that while you can't touch yourself with a weave of the power you are currently holding, you can use the Power on yourself by releasing the weave before it makes contact with your body.

 

In other words, if a stream of balefire only needs be woven and released, then so long as it touches the body after losing a direct connection to the source through the individual, it can actually affect you.

 

Though of course, I'm not sure exactly if channeling works that way. Balefire may require a sustained connection to the One Power.

 

 

 

 

 

It doesn't amtter whether you make and release the weave.  you are still dead before you can make the weave.  The very nature of balefire prevents its use on ones self.

[Dhaos]

I don't have the books with me at the moment, but I think this bears asking: Was Asmo holding the Power at the time?  Was he walking around looking for a bottle of wine while wrestling the "sewage" that is unfiltered Saidin?

 

I think this is a really important question.  If it's not mentioned in the narrative leading up to "You? No!", I find this theory really hard to believe.  Asmo would have had to- 1. Recognize the 'uninvited guest' in the closet, then 2. Decide he really had to kill himself, then 3. seize the Source, and finally 4. Weave his tiny stream of Saidin into balefire and unleash it on himself.  All of this while that 'No!' still hung in the air?

 

I'm not sure this jives.  ESPECIALLY if the person in the closet was a channeller.  It makes sense to me that a Forsaken/Darkfriend channeller would be on -high alert- while in the palace, Source embraced, ability Masked, and a number of inverted weaves at the ready.  Then Asmodeon bumbles upon them.  In this kind of scenario, I don't think Asmodeon would have the chance to off himself.

 

If the person in the closet (or wherever that door led) was not a channeller, this theory becomes -slightly- more believable.  But I still think it stretches credulity that Asmo would be able to recognize, seize, decide that 'this was it', and then off himself in the space of a breath.  YMMV.

[Lord Nik]

...

End of book four shortened version by me

 

Asmoden feeling good, no what... I actually think we have a chance thinks asmoden. turns corner...

" YOU NO!" as asmoden who is as weak as a kitten, draws sadin, weaves balefire.. as his attacker is... instead of shielding him. binding him or hurting him, the unknown attacker is saying "cool balefire.. goodthing i know your using this on yourself not me..."

--

really.... killed himself... interesting point but i just cant see it...

maybe shadar haran did it?

 

[Mr Ares]

Also I think the big badass Fade dude killed Asmo

The big badass Fade dude that wasn't introduced until the book after the murder (or, given the thread, suicide) despite the fact we are supposed to have all the clues needed to come to an answer as of the end of TFoH?

 

maybe shadar haran did it?

Why would Asmo address a Fade as "You"? Furthermore, why would Asmo recognise Shaidar Haran? He's been out the loop for some time, yet more than one of the other Chosen (Demandred springs to mind) didn't recognise him. Also, to keep this in line with the thread, If Asmo didn't recpgnise his killer, why would he take this opportunity to kill himself? Suicide only works when he realises that he is buggered, and while a Chosen showing up may convince him of that, I'm not sure that a Fade would - while a Chosen may be someone he feels unable to fight, why wouldn't he just kill the Fade? It can't defend even against his weak channeling (I know SH can, but Asmo doesn't know that).

 

I don't have the books with me at the moment, but I think this bears asking: Was Asmo holding the Power at the time?  Was he walking around looking for a bottle of wine while wrestling the "sewage" that is unfiltered Saidin?

 

I think this is a really important question.  If it's not mentioned in the narrative leading up to "You? No!", I find this theory really hard to believe.  Asmo would have had to- 1. Recognize the 'uninvited guest' in the closet, then 2. Decide he really had to kill himself, then 3. seize the Source, and finally 4. Weave his tiny stream of Saidin into balefire and unleash it on himself.  All of this while that 'No!' still hung in the air?

Firstly, it's not like seizing the Source or weaving takes much time, nor indentifying a threat. Deciding to off yourself may take a bit, though. Secondly, presumably he would be seizing and weaving after you?, but before and during no! Plus, surely if he was faced with a non-channeler he would have just killed them?

 

Unless we take Asmo's own words as pure bluster, we have reason to believe that Asmo did have the means.  He said that he planned to kill himself when he found out the the DO was loose, and he also expressed his knowledge of the torturous realities that faced him after his death.  To what point would he kill himself if he could not also ensure that the DO could not reclaim him?

I think what the actual quote was the he "planned to open his veins the moment the dark one broke free". So do you think he meant this in a literal sense? Because if he did I think that would sort of insinuate that he wouldn't be able to draw enough of the power to do any damage to himself.

Surely if he meant it in a literal sense then it wasn't suicide, because he wasn't faced with a broken free Shai'tan. Of that we can be sure.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

It doesn't amtter whether you make and release the weave.  you are still dead before you can make the weave.  The very nature of balefire prevents its use on ones self.

 

Depends on how you look at things. Actually it just creates a paradox which can't be resolved completely, since RJ himself seems to have made contradicting statements.

 

On one hand, he said that balefire exists outside of time. If that is true, it can be used to kill oneself.

 

On the other, he said what seems like exactly the opposite. This would seem to make it, as you pointed out, impossible to kill oneself. Yet not quite. If the balefire is weak enough to only burn your thread back to a point slightly after (and not before or during) your creation of the balefire, then it CAN kill you.

 

So in other words, you could create balefire, send it off in a certain direction, watch a few minutes pass by, and then travel to a place directly in its trajectory. (Of course, since the Earth is round, if you waited too long, you might have to travel into space somewhere). The balefire trajectory may be altered by the gravitational pull, as well, so you'd have to factor that in also.

 

Which, by the way, brings up an interesting point: is a released weave still free from the effects of the environment (gravity, etc.)? Or is it subject to such forces? For instance, should balefire be considered light?

 

Another one: Would extensive balefire use create weird weather? (You know, causing vacuums and such in the atmosphere.)

[Bob T Dwarf]

Interesting questions.  The only one I'll address is the one of paradox.

 

Rand balefiring the Darkhounds outside Mat's door in Rhuidean may be our best guide.  When he shot them there was a large hole in the door, and Mat's arm was in a bad way.  Afterwards, the hole was much smaller, and Mat was in better shape.  Thus, the Darkhounds actually died before causing most of the damage Rand first saw, and what he first saw is technically a hallucination, most of it never happened and he couldn't have seen what he thought he did.  And likely wouldn't have done what he actually did.

 

But, he did see it.  What he saw formed the whole basis behind what he did.  The original hole was a big one.  The original damage to Mat's arm was significant and likely would have killed him before Moiraine could arrive and heal him.

 

Thus, balefire standing outside the timestream of its use is the only statement that fits the facts.

[Jonn]

I've always thought the paradox that was created by balefire is the fact that your thread is burnt out permanently from the Pattern, going back to the past.

 

It's often described in the books as a thread meeting a flame. Not only is the thread cut, but it burns a portion of it away permanently. Apparently the future part of that thread is totally destroyed and depending on the strength of the balefire, part of the past is singed off as well.

 

Now, ignoring the fact that it may not be possible to physically point a finger at yourself and balefire yourself...

 

Once you are balefired, true the actions you made in the past may not have happened to a degree including being balefired, but that still does not prevent the fact that your thread is burned away. This burning is permanent. So even though you might have erased the act of weaving balefire at yourself, it doesn't stop the fact that your thread is burned away. There's no thread to restore. The future of that thread is not there any more.

 

We were talking about the what if: What if someone balefired someone who balefired someone else? Is the last person brought back?

 

My answer is, no.

 

The burning of the thread is permanent. Once you've been balefired, your future is severed and burned away even all the way into the past.

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Agreed.  Once you're balefired, you're gone even if the guy who balefired you is balefired in turn by someone else.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

So therefore, a distinction must be made between balefire itself and the effects of balefire.

 

Because then it would be the effects of balefire which exist outside of the paradox of balefire itself.

 

This should also resolve the issue of what would happen if you balefired your mother back to before you were born (and other variations). You would cease to exist, therefore the balefire itself could never have happened, but the effects are still there.

 

So the paradox of balefire is resolved simply if the effects exist outside of time. Everything else, including balefire itself is subject to this. Only the effects are not subject to themselves.

[Jehaine]

Hmm...

 

In the attack LTT killed himself with, i recall reading something about 'the air turned to fire, the fire to light liquefied'. If this would be balefire, how far back would it have tossed the Pattern? From LTT's POV, balefire would actually make the most sense given that he wants nothing more than to undo his murder of Ilyena.

 

If so, even if the killing in itself wouldn't have happened, it'd still exist as a mass hallucination, and persistant rumors made the name stick. That the Intro ended without getting a second look of the palace.

 

So yeah... Knowing what you know of balefire, how far back would LTT's thread have been burned?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Warning, Jehaine - you're treading on dangerous ground.

 

I tried to put balefire out as the way LTT killed himself, and got trounced for it.  The best anybody could come up with for an alternative was pure saidin.

 

Since there's no way to know for sure, I quit struggling and let'em have their way.

[Jehaine]

Oh?

 

Umm... Might you have a link to the thread in question for me? 'LTT' and 'balefire' are likely to generate eleventy zillion hits on this part of the Boards, so that rules out the Search option i fear...