Mat and the Tower of Ghenji

[skalors3]

I recently re-read the series, and I think I figured out how Matt is going to escape the Aelfinn and Elfinn from knowing that he is coming; the iron dagger from Elayne.  He has to pass through Camelyn to get to Whitebridge, then he heads north from there (I believe).  It would stand to reason that he will meet with Elayne before going.  If the dagger does prevent him from being seen by the Elfinn/Aelfinn, he will be able to carry iron into their world without them knowing. 

 

Just my thoughts on the matter.

[Myndrunner]

I am probably looking forward to that part of MoL more than the resolution of TG itself.  Mat "Two River's Jones" Cauthon will ride with Thom and very likely Jaim...er, I mean Noal to rescue Moiraine, who I am confident will make her triumphant return.  I suspect that Thom and/or Noal might pay the ultimate price in her rescue, and I think Thom already suspects this. 

 

I suspect that the Thom character is needed more with the Finns more because it will require as much shrewd negotiation as sneakiness, and both are Thom's shtick.  Anyways, I am looking forward to that storyline.

 

If memory serves, I think Aviendha took the dagger with her so I suspect that she and the dagger will play a very pivotal role in TG rather than with the Aelfinn/Elfinn, and more so tha Aviendha has it.  Still, my memory has been serving me hot pockets and kool-aid lately, so I could very likely be wrong.  Good theory though, it does make sense.

 

-Mynd over the Matter

[skalors3]

I think Av left it with Elayne in AMoL right before she left.  I could be wrong as well.  The theory could still fit though because it is likely that Av COULD be with Elayne.

[Kalythase Breen]

Odd... I just read that part in KoD... Yeah, Aviendha gave it to Elayne right before she left with the Aiel. I really like the theory - and it makes a lot of sense. I'm a little worried that Noal is going to try to betray them, though... In some of his ramblings about 'Jain being his cousin', he mentioned something about 'Jain' being made into a tool by someone or something, but didn't get to finish his sentence. (which might possibly mean a Forsaken or even the Aelfinn and Eelfinn themselves. I dunno.)

[skalors3]

If you remember in EoTW or the GH, Ishmael said that Jain was brought to Shayol Ghul and he turned out to be a heroe in the end.  I think he was turned into a tool by the shadow and escaped it.

 

I am fairly certain that Noal is Jain.  However, Noal never speaks fondly of Jain.  I think that is proof enough that he regrets his life.  However, there are many theories floating around, and I agree with them, that the person who stayed in the stedding and warned the Ogier that someone was trying to blind the EoTW was Jain after he escaped.

[Nethran Thaimal]

Noal is Jain, by all evidence, and a Darkfriend.  Or was.  Not too sure if he still is.  I read somewhere that he's upset at being mishandled by Demandred? Not sure where I read that, might have been encyclopediawot. It stands to reason that he knows exactly who Matrim Cauthon is, so the fact that he hasn't made an attempt on his life yet is in good support of the theory that he's gone the way of Ingtar.

[Majsju]

Ehm, the knife protects the bearer from being seen by the Shadow. The finns have nothing to do with the shadow, so the knife would not help Mat the slightest.

[Guest leebarr]

I know Mat will resuce her but it would be funny if when he got there she started complaining and Mat says "You are not worth it find your own way out." Then leaves her behind

[icspots]

Ehm, the knife protects the bearer from being seen by the Shadow. The finns have nothing to do with the shadow, so the knife would not help Mat the slightest.

 

I'm glad someone finally brought that up.

[Bob T Dwarf]

True, Maj, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they won't need the iron dagger anyway.

 

Recall Egwene's Dream:

Mat throwing dice with blood streaming down his face, the wide brim of his hat pulled low so she could not see his wound, while Thom Merrilin put his hand into a fire to draw out the small blue stone that now dangled on Moiraine's forehead.

 

And, Perrin's Wolfdream:

He is on a high stone spire. A window opens and he sees Mat rattling a dice cup. His opponent stared at Mat with eyes of fire. Mat did not seem to see the man, but Perrin knew him. Ba'alzamon.

 

So, it seems that Mat has to keep the Dark occupied, while Thom, unseen, steals Moiraine out of her prison.

[Majsju]

So, it seems that Mat has to keep the Dark occupied, while Thom, unseen, steals Moiraine out of her prison.

 

Eh, say what now? Trying to invent a connection between the two?

 

Perrins dream is most likely regarding Mats bet with rahvin in TDR. Especially since the next vision he has (in the same dream) is about Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne getting caught in Tear. It has nothing to do with Mat dealing with the finns.

 

As for Mat needing the knife, every single main character in the books would need that knife.

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

It could be.

 

Seems more likely to me that it is two slightly different viewpoints on the same event.  Egwene sees Mat and Thom but not Mat's opponent.  Perrin sees Mat and the opponent but not Thom.

 

Jordan did like to re-emphasize the importance of certain events.  Freeing Moiraine qualifies as an important event.

[Myndrunner]

Forget about Wolf Dreams and such for a moment....and consider the nature of the men going in to rescue her.....

 

This sort of mission is right up Thom's alley.  Much more than the gleeman he pretends to be, Thom is most certainly a man of action.  Noal Farstrider will also play a key role here, but will he end up being more of a hinderance in the end, being a possible darkfriend and all?

 

Mat is going to toss the dice here big time.  He will most likey have a great strategy for going in, but like most great battle plans, they go out the window when the battle begins.  I see an Indianna Jones style rescue, with some hasty re-strategizing.

 

I also see neither Thom nor Noal making it out alive.  I think Thom knows he won't be coming back.

 

-My two coppers worth

[Majsju]

Perrin sees Mat and the opponent but not Thom.

 

Which speaks even stronger in favour of Perrin seeing the events in TDR, since the rescue mission is Thoms task, Mat is important, but still an additional player.

 

Also, in Perrins dream there are no reference to Mats eye, something we have in Egwenes dream (as well as an earlier reference to Mats eye in another of her dreams, as well as in one of Mins viewings.)

 

It is also worth comparing Perrins dream to the dream Egwene had regarding the bet with Rahvin.

 

What did it mean that Mat was dicing with the Dark One, and why did he keep shouting "I am coming!" and why did she think in the dream that he was shouting at her?

 

She does see the opponent, just not in the dream about the finns, but in her dream about the same event Perrin dreams about.

[DemandredFO]

I think Min had a viewing of Thom and Moiraine married and I don't think they would get married in the ToG.  Secondly, Thom has to kill some red sisters.  Jain Farstrider will die probably doing something heroic.  Where does the idea come from that Farstrider is a darkfriend?  Cowan Fairheart of Malkier was a darkfriend and Farstrider brought him back but if you could give a quote or something.  On another subject Egwene would complain about not being rescued fast enough, not Moiraine.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Maj, let's not forget geometry here.

 

If you're far enough behind someone to see his opponent through a window,  you're too far behind him to see his face.  If you're enough to the side to see his face, your field-of-view is too narrow to see his opponent.

 

Mat makes a habit of dicing with the devil, so seeing Ba'alzamon doesn't give us any sort of timeframe.

 

Egwene's Dream comes out of The Fires of Heaven. The event it forecasts hasn't occurred yet, six books on.  Perrin's from the earlier The Dragon Reborn.

 

Either interpretation of the actual event Perrin sees could be correct.

[Majsju]

And yet Perrin sees enough of Mats face to determine that mat does not see his opponent...Or he maybe read ot from the angle of Mats neck or something...

 

It is a dream, geometry does not mean the same thing as in the real world.

 

Perrin dreams of Mats bet with rahvin, end of story.

[aevogt]

I always got the impression that Noal was Jain Farstrider, despite his claim that they wer cousins, but he had been captured and made a pawn of the Shadow, almost certainly against his will judging by his present condition - broken fingers, nose and teeth, severe memory loss.  That's the description of a victim of torture.  All that was missing was wet hair from the waterboard.

 

[Majsju]

Of course Noal is Jain. And the last doubt should have went out the window after his slip in KOD.

[Myndrunner]

Noal is Jain, Olver is no Cain, and Einhorn is Finkel.  Got it! 

 

Now, riddle me this:  Is Jain going with them to redeem himself?  Or, does he know what they are up to and, as a sort of an insurance for the DO, will he attempt to foil the rescue?  Will there be more than FINS waiting for them?  A Chosen perhaps?

 

Or, is he just a crazy old man? Why do I also get the feeling that Olver is going to somehow follow them there?

 

-Mynd

[Guest Dreadlord]

Noal has never revealed his purpose, or his reason, for staying with Mat. And I really don't think it has anything to do with Ta'veren-it seems Mats Ta'veren twist doesn't pull people to him in the same way it does with Rand-and on top of that i do wonder how Jain survived the Blight long enough to write books about it. But in the same breath he doesn't act suspicious.

 

For a while I have been thinking that Noal IS a Darkfriend, who will somehow contact Isam and let him know Mat is about to enter the Tower of Ghenjie. Noal arranging an ambush doesn't seem like an impossibility, but there isn't much to make me think that.

 

A question asked alot is how will mat go to Finnland more than once and survive (does the rule of once only just apply to the doorways? I think not) and I believe Thom will strike the bargain of their survival. Maybe the Finns want Isam to be killed as he enters their without their approval, and Thom bargains that they let them all leave alive-with Moiraine-if they deal with Slayer. And another thing I keep associating with this plot is the thing about Mats eye.

[Kaznen]

Here is something no one else has pointed out....

 

WHY THE HECK WOULD MAT GO TO CAMLYEAN(?)!?!?!?!?

 

Let's look at the Randland geography.  Mat is in East Central Altara, about to cross in Ghealdan.  When the Band crosses the Manthernandrelle they just nee to follow the east bank north and continue following the the river from Saldeana that flows into it, the Sulsen?, keep going north and they get to Whitebridge.  Mat leaves most of the Band there and continues North along the river to the Tower of Ghenji.  For him to go visit Elayne he would nee to go WAY out of his way.  Remember that Camlynean(?) is almost on the Eastern edge of Andor and he is much closer to Two Rivers right now.

 

as for keeping things from the 'finns, I think triangle/curvy line thing that Olver kept doing when they decided to go "blinds" them from the 'finns.  Like during the middle ages when people believed the Sign of the Cross hid them from the Devil.

[Jehaine]

"Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind."

 

So far, we have Courage (to enter the Tower and play the game), Music (Thom) and potentially Iron (the iron dagger), and i know Moiraine's strength in Fire is pretty good, considering she chose it over other elements on more than one occasion.

 

As there is a prophecy stating Mat will 'give up half the light of the world in order to save it', i believe this means the Tower is where he loses an eye. Whether it'd be due to the negotiations or during the escape with Moiraine i don't know, but it'd be likely that the Aelfinn and Eelfinn aren't going to sit by idly and watch their world get trespassed.

[aevogt]

If you enter one of the Doorways and stick to the Agreement, the you get three wishes or three answers.  You can only do this once for each door.

 

If you enter the Tower itself, there is no agreement so you don't get the wishes or the answers.  However, you don't have to abide by the agreement so you can take music, fire, iron, what have you.

 

As with most other fantasy in regards to elves they cannot touch iron, it's literally poisonous.  A good example is Tad Williams Memory, Sorrow and Thorn where the elves use witchwood for their weapons.  Entering the ToG with ordinary iron will give the fantastic four an edge.  It will turn out that ordinary iron, not steel which what weapons are made from and is an alloy, but plain iron, does something to constrain the Finns.  "Iron to Bind"  I think that is  why the Foxes have bronze knives.

 

 

[Myndrunner]

"Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind."

 

Fire - Could "fire" be something from the Illuminators? 

 

Music - the Finns always ask if they brought music with them and what better music than that of a gleeman's harp? 

 

Courage - maybe liquid courage, perhaps?  Drink is certainly not foreign to any of those men.

 

Iron - What significant item or items exist in Randland that are more than casually mentioned as being made of Iron?  The Dagger, of course, but we're running out of time and I don't see Mat going out of his way to get it. Hmmm...