Mat and the Tower of Ghenji

[Jehaine]

Which brings up a small question of mine.

 

Can a non-channeler be forcefully turned to the Shadow using a Circle of Thirteen?

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Just wondering how people are seeing the whole giving up an eye thing...

 

The way I see it is that Mat will decide upon a course of action that will cost him an eye. This is as opposed to saying "Oh, I can free Moiraine if I give you an eye? OK, deal."

 

I think he'll be aware that his choice is going to cost him, but he'll do it anyway. i.e. he'll confront someone/something that will destroy/take/ruin one of his eyes. Its been presented as a kind of payment/bargain, but what if that bargain is not straightforward? i.e. the "bargain" is in fact an action that Mat chooses to undertake and that the outcome is him losing his eye, rather than a straight swap.

 

I'm aware as I write this that it's all a bit convoluted, but I hope you get the gist.

 

How do you think it'll go?

[Rasta Ashaman]

How do you think it'll go?

 

With Mat, the safest thing to assume would be a BET with the 'Finns, I think - and it'll be the one he'll lose (maybe, on purpose - just to free Moiraine)

[Rasta Ashaman]

QUOTE

P.S. and I suspect I know the reason why Slayer doesn't have any troubles with the Finns. As it happens quite often, the ancient names get distorted with time, and the real name has always been Tower of Ganja.

UNQUOTE

 

And Manetheren was really called Marawana? And the ancient symbol for time is the Weed, not the Wheel?

 

I knew I was right! Look what i'n'i found in onadem stasis-boxes!

 

 

 

[Rasta Ashaman]

How do you think it'll go?

 

With Mat, the safest thing to assume would be a BET with the 'Finns, I think - and it'll be the one he'll lose (maybe, on purpose - just to free Moiraine)

 

Or maybe it will not be a lost bet, but a lost game. Mat knows that the only way to win at playing Snakes&Foxes is to cheat; but as far as I remember, he hasn't cheated in any of the games he's played so far (his luck doesn't really count, right?); he'll try cheating and the eye will be the price to pay for that.

[Cabriana]

You're mother was a hamster and your father stank of elderberries! I fart in your general direction! (Siuan to Elaida when Elaida is deposed, right before she's stilled)

 

See? Even some of us uncultured yanks have been properly trained in the ways of Python!

 

I've done a couple of read throughs. I don't see Thom and Moiraine in love. I see them as having a very high regard for one another and a certain amount of affection. But I don't  forsee them setting the sheets on fire anytime soon.

 

It's going to be interesting to see the fallout of Moiraine's rescue from the Finns. Her rescue is vital to Rand's victory but on the other hand, will Mat lose those memories when he loses his eye? He's deadly in battle right now, but how much is the old blood? How much is the memories bestowed by the Finns? This can change the dynamic of the character.

 

At least we know the canons should be up and running for TG.

 

 

[Korin Caylin]

IT'S JUST A FLESH WOUND! Rand to Forsake after loss of hand

 

Nice Cabriana.

 

I wouldn't have seen Thom and Morgase together either but that happened before. Also when Thom talks about the way he was going to save the chick that was yelled at by her husband or whatever he said that he had left Moiraine behind like the girl when he should have saved her or something in that general meaning.

[bRANDan]

And the DO is a cute little bunny...

 

 

 

...but don't get too close.

[BrainFireBob]

They have links so they can see through his eyes. Perhaps it's one link per eye.

 

Remove one eye, and either the Snakes or Foxes think he's in one location when he's in another, potentially.

 

They can see the future. There is no plan Mat can make they can't foresee. But Mat's luck is his own- if he plays chaotically, no planning, no forethought, they cannot see what he will do. And when it comes to random chance, Mat cheats.

[Rasta Ashaman]

They can see the future. There is no plan Mat can make they can't foresee. But Mat's luck is his own- if he plays chaotically, no planning, no forethought, they cannot see what he will do. And when it comes to random chance, Mat cheats.

 

Don't you think there's a contradiction? If the 'Finns see/foresee the future this way (either 'linear' or 'Rhuidean-Rings-like'), then isn't this a case of a classical sci-fi paradox? if they know the future, wouldn't they know what Mat will try, however chaotic that might be - since they know how it'll all end?

 

Do they really 'see the future' - don't remember that being mentioned anywhere in the series - or just know 'the answers'?

 

EDIT: their abilities include 'READING the future' - I don't think that equals seeing/knowing what exactly will happen

[Kadere]

They can see the future. There is no plan Mat can make they can't foresee. But Mat's luck is his own- if he plays chaotically, no planning, no forethought, they cannot see what he will do. And when it comes to random chance, Mat cheats.

 

Don't you think there's a contradiction? If the 'Finns see/foresee the future this way (either 'linear' or 'Rhuidean-Rings-like'), then isn't this a case of a classical sci-fi paradox? if they know the future, wouldn't they know what Mat will try, however chaotic that might be - since they know how it'll all end?

 

Do they really 'see the future' - don't remember that being mentioned anywhere in the series - or just know 'the answers'?

 

EDIT: their abilities include 'READING the future' - I don't think that equals seeing/knowing what exactly will happen

 

Well if the Finn's could see the future with 100% accuarcy then they would know that it's inevitable that Mat will defeat them and save Moiraine. But they don't, as we know from what they tell Mat, and from what Moiraine says. They tell Mat when he meets them that he has the choice not to go to Rhuidean, though that decision will destroy his Ta'veran abilities and make Rand lose the war, he still had that choice even from what the Finn's knew was his "destiny." Also Moiraine says that there's a million ways that Mat can break in and fail to save her, and only a few where he succeeds with everyone alive.

 

The Finn's, I imagine, would see all these possiblites, though they would have to know which ones were the most likely, otherwise they couldn't give true answers, and so far we've seen all their predictions come true (Mat marrying Tuon, Mat dying and living again, Rand cleansing Saidin). So if Mat's "giving up half the light of the world to save the world" has something to do with saving Moiraine, then the Finn's KNOW that they'll lose to Mat. Even if it doesn't have anything to do with Mat defeating them, they still probably know it. But I think it's a matter of inevitablity. They've forseen it, they know it's the truth, they know he's Ta'veran, and they would know that if Mat does it right, they'll lose.

 

Mat can fail, but they know how he can succeed, and I'm not sure there's much they can do about it besides try to push him down the wrong path.

[Jehaine]

Personally, i see it as Mat making a bet with the Finns, or playing a game, keeping them busy while Thom and Jain rescue Moiraine. He'll lose an eye during one of these games.

 

Also, there is something about being able to read the future that is mentioned relatively often, and that is the inability to see one's OWN future. It could very well be that the Finns are 100% certain on their predictons, when the Snakes see the Foxes' future and the Foxes the Snakes', but keep one of the two occupied long enough and there'll be a flaw to exploit... Which Mat happens to be good at.

 

They'll know he'll defeat them, they just wouldn't know how because the other team wouldn't be able to predict it to them. The question remains how much damage Jain's going to do in there.

[skalors3]

When was the last time that we heard the eye prophecy?  I can't recall.