Why so much build-up for the forsaken? Dissapointing...

[RAND AL THOR]

In the first 3 books, the forsaken were portrayed as exceptionally powerful beings. In TDR, Moiraine says:

 

Thirteen of the most powerful Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends, the weakest of them stronger than the ten

strongest Aes Sedai living today, the most ignorant with all the knowledge of the Age of Legends. And every

man and woman of them gave up the Light and dedicated their souls to the Shadow.

 

I mean, the forsaken didnt turn out to be all that powerful. I thought it was sort of pathetic that Balthamel died so easily at the end of TEOFW after being imprisoned for 3000 years! After that, Rand knocks them off one by one. While I was still early in the books, I expected them to be much more deadly, yet we see Nynaeve matching Moghedien and all that... Of course Nynave is not Aes Sedai in TDR so Moiraine's quote above is not exactly a lie, but a , er, exaggeration. I think it is dissapointing that RJ led us on a sort of false track.

 

One more question that has been bothering me is this: If Rand is able to kill so many forsaken, then surely Lews Therin should also have been able to. Why then, didnt LTT kill many of them during the War of the Shadow? It seems strange, especially cos he had the 100 companions at the time... Anyone interested please answer. ;D

[Thorum]

every Aes Sedai who went over to the DO was a Forsaken back in Lews' times. 13 of the highest generals were imprisoned for 3000 years.

 

So: LTT probably killed off a couple of Forsaken. But not these.

 

As to the strength: AS were much stronger then, than they are now. A mediocre AS in the AOL would still be a very good one now (like Siuan or Moiraine). And don't forget Moiraine doesn't actually know them yet.

[Rahlian]

Well, I think that there are several reasons for this.

1) They are AoL'ers. They are used to different technologies and different politics.

2) Several of them were taken by surprise, i.e. Be'lal when Moiraine BFed. He had no way of knowing that she had access to such forbidden knowledge.

3) They have repeatedly underestimated Rand's abilites, saying that he is a Third Age bumbkin, and as such could not possibly be dangerous to Second Age masters such as themselves.

4) LTT did kill quite a few of them. The current Forsaken are not all the Forsaken that ever were.

5) They are only human after all. They are bound to screw up.

6) Rand is ta'veren. He has the weave of the Pattern in his favor. In my mind, that is a huge advantage.

 

Hope this helps  :)

[Bob T Dwarf]

The Forsaken are the bogeyman - the monster under the bed, or in the closet.

 

Ask any three children what the bogeyman is capable of doing and you'll get three very different answers.  All dependent on that child's imagination.

 

For Moiraine, there is a historical record of the War of Power.  That record makes clear that the Dark was winning.  Therefore, they must be POWERFUL,  and POWERFULLY EVIL.

 

As is normal, the reality doesn't live up to the hype.  Even so, and despite the losses it has suffered, the Dark is actually ahead on points and is winning... so far.

[Dbob]

I don’t remember anywhere reading that LTT didn’t knock off a few Forsaken in the course of the war. So I would assume that probably he did.

 

Though, in general I agree that for the most part the Forsaken aren’t as bad ass as billed; with the exception of Demandred, and Lanfear, maybe Semi. My favorite villain is Taim, he seems to be a lot more formidable than some of the other forsaken. I liked the idea of Shaidar Haran (sp?), but then he really doesn’t do anything, so I’m still waiting to see if he goes down like a cardboard cutout.

 

[Tel Janin Aellinsar]

In the first 3 books, the forsaken were portrayed as exceptionally powerful beings. In TDR, Moiraine says:

 

Thirteen of the most powerful Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends, the weakest of them stronger than the ten

strongest Aes Sedai living today, the most ignorant with all the knowledge of the Age of Legends. And every

man and woman of them gave up the Light and dedicated their souls to the Shadow.

 

I think it is dissapointing that RJ led us on a sort of false track.

 

For one thing, nobody (even in the White Tower) truly understood who the Foresaken were prior to their release.  As Adeleas (or Vandene, I can't remember which) said in TGH, there is nothing more than fragments that survived about the Foresaken.  And these fragments consist of minute details like the fact that Lanfear and Lews Therin were lovers prior to his relationship with Illyena.  Nothing substantive on the types of people they were or what they could do.  This is complicated by the mythos that has sprung up around the Foresaken over the 3000 years since their imprisonment.  Rather than being viewed as men and women who turned to the shadow, they have been elevated (by both the followers of the lights as well as the darkfriends) into virtual demigods only a step below the Dark One himself.  Think about the light's cathecism that the Emond's Fielders so often invoke during the early books, "The Dark One and all his Foresaken are bound in Shayol Ghul, bound by the Creator at the moment of creation . . . ."  I'm not saying that the Aes Sedai did not have a better grasp on the truth than the general populace (although that's debateable), but rather the pervasiveness of the mythos colored even the Tower's perspective and knowledge.

 

Add to this the general lack of understanding of the Age of Legends among the inhabitants of today, it is no suprise that the Foresaken were presumed to have all the knowledge of the AoL.  And this has been born out in later books as we learn about each Foresaken's specialties and abilities (and weaknesses).  And remember, we cannot really see the full extent of the Foresaken's power in the AoL because all of the advanced technology has been lost. Remember RJ's answer to the Question of the Week in which he discussed Aginor's frustrations in Rand's time.  He had been a geneticist.  Yes his abilities with the Power aided him in that field, but he had none of technology that he needed to exercise his knowledge, nor the technology to create that technology, nor the technology to create that technology, and so on and so forth.

 

Combine all this with RJ's propensity to do this sort of humanizing with all of the near-mythical personas in the series.  Remember, in tEotW Aes Sedai were super-powerful, mysterious, unfathomable, etc.  In later books were come to understand that this view perpetuates not because of its truth but rather because it is the common perspective and the Aes Sedai want to perpetuate it.  The Foresaken start out similarly, and RJ similarly humanizes them as he broadens the perspective of the story so that we, as readers, can see beyond the provincial viewpoints of the characters.  But by starting off with the narrow character viewpoints and then pulling back to expose them, it helps the reader understand the characters reaction to the Foresaken.  So I do not think it was a false trail at all, but rather a literary device, that in my mind improved the story.  

 

I thought it was sort of pathetic that Balthamel died so easily at the end of TEOFW after being imprisoned for 3000 years!

 

Well, he did get to come back (granted, as a woman).  But aside from that, I think Balthamel's death, along with Aginor's helps illustrate the point I was making above.  RJ was already forshadowing the Foresakens' true natures.

 

While I was still early in the books, I expected them to be much more deadly, yet we see Nynaeve matching Moghedien and all that... Of course Nynave is not Aes Sedai in TDR so Moiraine's quote above is not exactly a lie, but a , er, exaggeration.

 

Again, I do not see this as a false trail.  RJ had already said several times throughout TGH and TDR that Nyneave, Elayne, and Egwene had more potential than any Aes Sedai since the War of the Hundred years, and in Nyneave's case possibly the Trolloc wars.  Moriaines comments did not apply to any of the three because in Moiraine's mind they were years from ever attaining the shawl.

 

NB:  RAND, I assume that your comment about RJ laying a false trail relates to the Foresaken in general, not the Moghedian/Nyneave issue.  Sorry if I misread what you meant.

 

One more question that has been bothering me is this: If Rand is able to kill so many forsaken, then surely Lews Therin should also have been able to. Why then, didnt LTT kill many of them during the War of the Shadow? It seems strange, especially cos he had the 100 companions at the time...

 

For starters these were hardly the only only thirteen Servants who betrayed the light.  I feel confident that the forces of the light did knock off more than few of the Dark One's general and governers over the years.  The only reason these thirteen survived the end of the war of power is because they happened to be at Shayol Ghul during the strike.  Also, consider that both sides had tons of channelers and vast armies.  Each side also apparantly controlled huge territories at various times during the war. All of this would make individual assassination of particular Foresaken both harder and less imperative to accomplish.

 

On the whole, individual Foresaken are far larger and more important targets in the war today than they would have been 3000 years ago, they have fewer ter'angreal available to aid them in their endeavors, and Rand has (let's face it) gotten lucky more than once in dealing with them.

 

At least these are my thoughts.

[Rahlian]

Bleh, i was going to say essentially the same thing but you said it better. That had to take a while

[Tel Janin Aellinsar]

Rahlian, Let me put it this way, when I started typing it, there were no replies posted.  Pretty much took me 40 minutes.

[Rahlian]

jeez... you have a longer attention span than i do. I was going post something here before you, but then i had to change classes... i hate school....

[aevogt]

I've been thinking about this inregards to the slug fest at the end of Winter's Heart and I think I have a couple of good analogys that explain this.

 

If you put a professional boxer (The Chosen) in the ring with a 13 year-old girl, the outcome is pretty much pre-determined.  Hoewever, if you give that little girl a handgun (not only Callandor but all of Ny and Caddy's neat little toys) you have another story entirely.

 

General George S. Patton was arguably one of the best generals (right behind Lee) the United states has ever produced.  If Patton were to face off    hand-to-hand against a Navy SEAL, he would go home in a box.  Demandred even says it.  He's a general, not a soldier.  

 

As powerful as they were, The Chosen were not fighters.  They were leaders whose strengths in the Power actually took a back seat to their charisma, to gain followers who could fight, and the leadership skills to control them.  Their strength in the Power only created the fear necessary to assist the first two in controlling their subordinates.

 

They walked into that fight expecting to be more powerful than the defenders and got their asses handed to them as a result.

 

Additionally, six of the eleven who survived the first months of their collective release secured high level positions with various countries,

 

Semihrage - Appointed Tuon's Truth Speaker by the Empress herself.

Sammael - Council of Nine in Illian

Bel'al - High Lord of Tear

Graendal - Spinster Noblewoman pulling strings in Arad Doman

Rhavin - Consort to Queen Morgase of Andor

Mesanna - pulling strings in the Tower

 

Ishmael, Lanfear Asmodean, Moghedien and Demandred all had plans that did not require assuming a high ranking role.

 

It begs the queastion, what is more effective for the Chosen, defacto control of a country or frightening milkmaids.

 

 

[Harmless Bandit]

Sometimes you come into a thread eager to make contribution to find all you wanted to say (and more) has been said, in a manner frighteningly similar to your own thoughts.

 

*shakes fist angrily at Tel Janin Aellinsar and aevogt*

 

Cuuurrseeessss!

[RAND AL THOR]

Thanks a lot everybody for the replies, especially Tel Janin Aellinsar, I appreciate the time you spent. Much of what u all said is probably true. I just found a quote in Winter's heart:

 

Demandred's fists unclenched. It was out in the open at last. He had hoped to have al'Thor dead—

or failing that, captive— before this suspicion reared its head. During the War of Power, more than a dozen

of the Chosen had died of the Great Lord's suspicion.

"The Great Lord is sure you are all faithful," Moridin announced, striding in as though he were the

Great Lord of the Dark himself.

 

So this makes it pretty clear that there were quite a number of "chosen" in the AoL. However, while all your arguements are sound, you do have to agree on one point: RJ's chief motive behind portraying teh forsaken as very powerful beings in the first 3 books was probably to spice up the book, and make us anxious for the scenes where Rand would face them.

 

For example, we were led to believe that it was acutually the DO who Rand faced at the end of Great Hunt and TDR and the appeareance of Ba'alzamon in TEOTW was thrilling because we thought it was the DO.  At the end of TDR, I was not at all disappointed that it wasnt the DO but Ishamael, I just thought 'omg, if that was Ishamael then how if the DO going to be?'

If RJ had revealed Ba'alzamon as Ishy early in Book 1, the first 3 books would definitely have been far less exciting. Afterwards, RJ cleanly explains that Ishy was half mad. Here I must really praise RJ, he created a lot of suspense and built up a lot around many of the forsaken, and while I was truly disappointed with some of their endings, I was especially pleased with the revelation that Baal was Ishy. Great work!

Anyone agree with me?

[Majsju]

While the forsaken obviously does not appear as big and scary now as they did in the beginning, they have managed to achieve quite a bit.

 

Semirhage singlehandly destroyed the Seanchan empire.

 

Asmo had quite a part in the Shaido running wild, which weakened the Aiel army Rand controls, as well as caused a lot of damage all over the place.

 

Mesaana played an important part in the split of the White Tower.

 

Graendal may not have started the chaos in Arad Doman, but she has done her best to make things worse. Her kidnapping of the Sharans might have caused some chaos there as well.

 

Sammael would have killed Rand in SL if not Moridin had stepped in and rescued Rand. He also came close to getting his hands on the Bowl of Winds, which would have been a disaster for the world.

 

Osan'gar successfully infiltrated the Black Tower, and we still do not know exactly what he might have achieved there. The Shadow can noit have been to displeased that he came in a perfect position to spy on Rand either, though that was not his own doing.

 

Little is known about Demandreds doings, but his comment at the end of LOC tells us that he must have achieved something quite important.

 

Aran'gar successfully infiltrated the rebel Aes Sedai, and helped keeping the conflict going.

 

Be'lals attempt to take Callandor and take out Rand would have worked if he had not been taken by surprise by Moiraine, one of these "halftrained children".

 

While it was not exactly his intention, Rahvins doings in Caemlyn caused chaos in Andor that was not sorted out until KOD.

 

Etc.

[bearit]

We do also have to remember that Rand is as powerful as Lews Therin, who was almost certainly the strongest male Aes Sedai (I'm not sexist but didn't Moghedien say something about the males being stronger) which means that Rand is quite possibly the strongest OP weilder ever, even the forsaken are below him.  The only Forsaken that could match him is Mordin (even then I think that is more of a Aniken(Rand) Obi-Wan(Mordin) fight in which one is stronger, but one knows way more about what he is doing).  I'm almost certain that in AoL Lews Therin killed many Forsaken, and one more though, Forsaken have been reborn by the DO in the wot, so is it possible that the forsaken were brought back by the DO in the AoL

[Bob T Dwarf]

Sorry, bearit, but they weren't.

 

Transmigration is something entirely new.  As Jordan, himself, said, in the AoL there were tens of thousands of channelers, if one proved faulty, the DO just cast it away and grabbed a new one off the shelf.

 

Asmo, obviously knows nothing about transmigration at the point when he is killed, because he's thinking about how pleasant it will be to see each of the others die.  If he had any idea that they'd just be recycled, he wouldn't be feeling satisfied about that.

[Thor]

the forsaken are quite formidable.

 

Balthamal:  killed by someshta due to the nym exploiting his decomposing body (which is kinda like soil?. killed an ashaman at the cleansing so quite strong.

Aginor: it wasn't really clear here how he could have made such a noob mistake ODing on power but i think his deteriorating body has something to do with it.  got pwned by callandor at the cleansing again.

Ishamael: has to be killed 3 times, first 2 times were due to ishamael trying to convert rand, last time was due to rand having a callandor.

Belal: he got surprised by Moiraine who basically cheapshotted him with balefire.

Asmodean: rand is stronger in power but still couldn't beat him without his fat man.

Lanfear: very powerful, got cheapshotted by moiraine also. defeated alivia despite alivia with all her angreals and ter angreals.

Moghedien: actually quite powerful in her own ways but never daring enough to do anything, even weaker than nynaeve. suppose this is a weak link.

Rahvin: was pwning rand until he got cheapshotted by Nynaeve.

Samuel: still don't understand why he wants to go to SL.

Graendal: quite powerful i think to have survived the cleansing (and the circle was led by verin who probably isn't that inexperienced.

Mesaana: don't seem to have done much so far except messing up the white tower, which was an eventuality anyways.

Demandred: mr not-taim, he lieks chaos?

Semirhage: imo she is powerful, destroyed almost all seanchan royal family, blew off rand's hand (ok so rand's got a whiny excuse of ltt fighting him in his head blah blah).

[benr]

The Forsaken's issues in the third age also reflect an overconfidence on their part, a misunderstanding of the strength of the power now, relative to other influences in peoples' lives.  In the AoL, scientific development, industrialization, and advanced teaching provide a much more advanced, educated society.  It is understandable that the Forsaken underestimate their opponents - and they are all so self-involved that they consider themselves immortal, when in actuality they can die as easily to violence as the next.  Of course, the Wheel's influence seems to intervene on the side of the Rand Band so that TG is reached.  They are a daunting foe, though, and aren't done yet!

[knutz]

Common misconception: RJ explained anything. He did not, he simply offered us the differing view-points of his characters.

 

To Rand: In the first book, he was a boy on an adventure. More scared of Morraine than Baalzamon. By the end of the book he just wants it all to be over and lashes out randomly. Aginor and Balthamel were both weak from being recently released, since they were only partially imprisoned and their flesh withered. By the time he's on the hunt for the horn, Rand could care less about Aes Sedai and says "Bring it On" to the forsaken.

 

To Farmer Joe: I doubt he'd agree that the Foresaken aren't scary. Even the weakest of the Kin could burn Farmer Joe to ash.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Also, regarding the Forsaken power level, you have to remember that history seems to be repeating itself to a point. I see this age being the build up to the next AoL equivalent, which would explain why the Forsaken no longer seem as powerful. Lews Therins 100 companions will no doubt have been considerably powerful, not that far below the Forsaken themselves in comparison to what we think of Aes Sedai in EotW, and I see Rand being well on his way to having his equivalent of the 100 companions now. Many of the One Powers possibilities have been rediscovered, many young channellers have the spark and are extremely powerful, all this together paints the picture of a world regaining the prosperity it lost after the Breaking. People like Logain, Narishma, Damer Flynn, Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne, Avhienda and Alivia all seem to be incredibly powerful compared to the average Aes Sedai by the end of book 11, not to mention people like Cadsuane, Verin and Moiraine, who may not necessarily be incredibly powerful but they definitely have something about them that makes them forces to be reckoned with.

 

The thing that bugs me though is the Cleansing. Although that scene is brilliant, one of the best of the series, I was so glad to see Demandred show his face that I thought "He's here! Now have him do something big, maybe something we haven't seen with the Power, or have him handle some of Rands followers as if they were ragdolls, or manage 10 flows at once like Rand can." But no, he fled when Damer matched his strength when linked. He FLED! I was well dissapointed. I always pictured Demandred to be one of the strongest Forsaken for some reason, and not as much as a coward as he seemed at the Cleansing.

 

With regard to Nynaeve defeating Moghedian, that was a great thread in my opinion. It was the first glimpse we had that Rand won't be doing it all himself-hell, he needs someone to sort the female Forsaken out for him, due to his "I can't kill a woman" weakness (which I think is great-the best heroes have weaknesses, and Rand has his share). It was also an early glimpse that Nynaeve isn't simply someone good at Healing, that she will go very far indeed, and that this Age would bring about as many changes with the One Power as there are with everything else. If Wheel of Time has taught me one thing about stories, it is that it can't be the protagonist who takes out all the big bad guys. While it is definitely satisfying to see Rand taking out giants of the Age of Legends it would become abit too repetative if he did it thirteen or more times in the set without anyone else catching some of the thunder.

[aevogt]

I just read The Cleansing scene so it's still fresh and I've been wanting to analyze it for a while.

 

Here are the Matchups

 

Demandred vs the Damer/Corele/Sarene link 

 

  - Demandred flees in the face of greater strength - Light wins

 

Graendal (with an Angreal) vs the Verin(with her angreal)/Shalon/Kumira link

 

  - Verin drives her off but not before Graendal kills Kumira.  As in Blackjack, ties go to the dealer.

 

Cyndane vs Alivia (with Nynaeve's bag of tricks)  Alivia, despite the advantages of an angreal and a weave dissolving ter'angreal comes away with an arm not just brokern bnut seared to the bone.  Cyndane, however flees.

 

The Nesune/Beldeine/Daigian/Eben Hopwil link vs Arangar(Halima) odds - four linked channelers to one.  We know Daighan to be very weak and probably not adding much.

The quartet managed to drive her away though how I do not know with Eben dead, Beldeine injured (badly enough to test the skills of no less a healer than Damer Flinn) and Sarene wide-eyed with shock over having almost died "out there"

 

Hard to call this one a tie but that's the end result.  They must have been aided by the mega link (Elza/Merise/Narishma{with Callandor}) on the Hill directed by Cadsuane's channel marker ter'angreal

 

Moghedien - hid through the whole thing then flees after almost being killed by the explosion of concentrated evil that scooped out SL.

 

Osangar - made a pathetic attempt to sneak in and got himself vaporized by the Elza/Merise/Narishma(with Callandor) link

 

There was mentioned in Caddy's POV that starting early and continuing through a good part of the battle there was an almost unceasing rain of lightening bolts on her sheild that without her angreal she would not have been able to maintain.

 

If Mesanna and Semihrage, or Moridin (wielding the True Power) had shown up we might not be waiting for another Book.

 

If we look at it, the odds were stacked so far in favor of the light it's surprising any of the Chosen survived at all.

 

If the Japanese on Iwo Jima had had twice as many men and some air cover, the Americans might never have dug them out.

 

[Snowy Dawn]

General George S. Patton was arguably one of the best generals (right behind Lee)....

 

Um, don't forget William Tecumseh Sherman. B. H. Liddell Hart lavished, perhaps, too much praise on the man, but there is no question that the capture of Atlanta, the March to the Sea, and the march north from Savannah were crucial to the defeat of the Confederacy. Lee surrendered because he was about to be caught between the hammer (Sherman's forces) and the anvil (Grant's forces). And now back to our regularly scheduled slugfest over the true meaning of the WOT. :-) :-)

[Snowy Dawn]

``If RJ had revealed Ba'alzamon as Ishy early in Book 1, the first 3 books would definitely have been far less exciting.''

 

This is plausible to me. I have to say that Ishamael's attempts to frighten the three Emond's Fielders into submission got a bit one-dimensional after a while. ``You will serve me!'' over and over again. He clearly underestimates all three of them.

 

As observed by others, Balthamel and Aginor at the Eye of the World are old men, both decrepit and the former near death, one suspects. They still have the command over <i>saidin</i>, but they do not have the vigor of their younger selves as they were when they were sealed into the bore. At that, Someshta dies killing Balthamel. BTW, we are not told what happened to the other Nym, but how is it that Aginor knows that Someshta is the last of his kind?

[Myndrunner]

I think that the Forsaken are like cockroaches, they keep turning up.  This is one reason I feel that we will see Lanfear again in MoL.  Ish-a-Meal is back, and he got his Forsaken hide kicked by Rand twice! 

 

It seems to me that one of the underlying themes of the whole series is that things are not always as believed.  There are a lot of beliefs that are at the core of Aes Sedai understanding, but as we read on, we learn the Tower knows a lot less than they think.

 

The same could be said for everyone's concept of the Forsaken, including their own.  They all suffer from delusions of grandeur that make Simon Cowell look meek. 

 

I expect a battle between Forsaken in MoL, with the return of Lanfear, but I do not expect to see an end to them. 

 

-Anyways, these are my thoughts.  - Myndrunner

[aevogt]

That's a good question.  It must be an oversight.  

 

One of Rand's flashbacks was to a seed singing ceremony that took place on the same day as the Strike and Sealing of the Forsaken.  Coumin thinks "One of the Nym was approaching".  Not the last of the Nym was approaching.  The paragraph ends with "Each field would have it's Nym, now"  Hardly what he would be thinking if he was seeing the last Nym on the planet.

 

We know that was the day Aginor was sealed away, so how could he possibly know that Somesta was the last of his kind.  

 

Unless, because he was sealed so close to the surface, he was aware of events taking place in the world, just as he was susceptible to the ravages of time.

 

 

Also, Snowy Dawn, yes Sherman was good, if unimaginative.  Grant was good but then again, anyone can throw troops at the enemy until they give up.  he was just lucky he didn't run out first. 

 

Myndrunner, Lanfear has already been transmigrated as the new Chosen, Cyndane

[Myndrunner]

I gotta read these bloody books again. 

 

-Myndrunner