How

[Guest leebarr]

How was all the shadowspawn moved to the manor Rand was staying at in KOD. The black wind should have come down on them like a hammer if they went though the ways. they can not use a gateway so how

[Thunderbomb]

They moved through the ways, since gateways kill them.

[Luckers]

They did indeed move through the Ways, though i think the poster was more confused by the lack of Machin Shin.

 

The answer is that we don't know why the Black Wind didn't intervene. Prior to this you couldn't have much above 100 in the Ways at any one time without attracting it instantly, and there is no way that one hundred thousand trollocs got through the Ways in three days moving only in lots of a hundred.

 

That being said, we have seen that the Black Wind is changing. Since its encounter with Fain we have seen a sequence of new behaviours on its part--waiting for specific people at Waygates, attempting to escape the Ways--and its possible that it continued on changing off screen. Some even suggest that it may have escaped the Ways, though i find that problematic given that i reckon we'd have seen it by now if it had.

[Guest leebarr]

I guess what i'm getting at is as a writer myself why would RJ make a thing so fearsome in the first few books then it have no bearing at the last

[Cillian]

I guess what i'm getting at is as a writer myself why would RJ make a thing so fearsome in the first few books then it have no bearing at the last

 

Read through Luckers post again, it's changing. Possibly taking orders. Either way it's getting more dangerous and I don't think we've seen the last of it.

[aevogt]

This is just idle speculating here:

 

Isn't also possible the Waygate they used in the blight was only a turning or two from the one outside Stedding Shangtai.  ie, they were only in there for a short amount of time.

 

I haven't read anything that indicates every trip has to take more than a day or even more than an hour The distance between the gates outside the ways has no bearing on the distance inside the ways.  

 

The trip from tear to the manetheran gate took Perrin and company a few days but they passed many turnings before they exited.  the very first turning could have taken them out on the other side of the world in a lot less time.

 

If they entered the ways and the turning for the Stedding was the first one they had to take, they could have moved that many before attracting too much attention from MS.  

[Moghedian]

Rand removed the taint from saidin at the end of winter's heart. Is it possible that this has somehow removed the taint from the ways slightly. Unlikely, but a possibility. However we haven't had anyone who has a POV go through the ways since the end of Winters Heart.

Isn't also possible the Waygate they used in the blight was only a turning or two from the one outside Stedding Shangtai.  ie, they were only in there for a short amount of time.

 

 

This seems more likely. Machin Shin could have been on the other side of the world at that time

[Orange Fescue]

Rand removed the taint from saidin at the end of winter's heart. Is it possible that this has somehow removed the taint from the ways slightly. Unlikely, but a possibility. However we haven't had anyone who has a POV go through the ways since the end of Winters Heart.

 

It was my understanding that, even after the taint was removed, damage done by the taint would remain. For example, male channellers who'd started to go mad wouldn't get any madder but they wouldn't turn sane. So, with the taint gone, the ways wouldn't get any worse but they wouldn't go back to being well-lit with grass on the islands. That is assuming that the corruption in the ways is the result of tainted saidin being used to grow them and that the corruption is now a part of the ways the way madness caused by channelling tainted saidin is now a part of some of the ashaman.

 

Could it be that the darkness and such in the ways is not a now-inherent property of the ways (caused by the use of tainted saidin) but is instead an effect of the presence of the taint on saidin? By that I mean that the darkness is not a corruption of the ways or of the space in which they are located but is instead the actual presence of the taint in the area. In that case, the ways might go back to normal since the darkness and such would not be a part of the ways (like a red stain  on a carpet) but would be a projection of something onto the ways (like a red spotlight directed at a carpet). I'm afraid I'm not being clear. If anyone understands what I'm saying, please help me to clarify it.

[Majsju]

Machin Shin was not effected by the Cleansing. It was the Taint that made it grow in the first place, but it moved on and now is independent.

[Luckers]

I guess what i'm getting at is as a writer myself why would RJ make a thing so fearsome in the first few books then it have no bearing at the last

 

Who suggested it would have no bearing? Indeed, in allowing the Trollocs to pass it has already had great bearing--and i doubt that will be the end of it.

 

As I said in my post we have witnessed a sequence of evolution in Machin Shin--indeed, it was a swift evolution crossing three books only. Since then we have not see it, and have no way of guaging what it has become. But that being said RJ would not have simply forgotten its existence.

 

It has its own arc.

 

Isn't also possible the Waygate they used in the blight was only a turning or two from the one outside Stedding Shangtai.  ie, they were only in there for a short amount of time.

 

I haven't read anything that indicates every trip has to take more than a day or even more than an hour The distance between the gates outside the ways has no bearing on the distance inside the ways. 

 

The trip from tear to the manetheran gate took Perrin and company a few days but they passed many turnings before they exited.  the very first turning could have taken them out on the other side of the world in a lot less time.

 

If they entered the ways and the turning for the Stedding was the first one they had to take, they could have moved that many before attracting too much attention from MS.

 

By all indications and statements a hundred thousand would draw its attention in mere moments. Not even long enough to cross a single bridge.

 

 

[Shendare]

Well, there would never be 100,000 in the Ways at the same time. They don't all pop in at once.

 

You're only going to get one going through the doorway at a time, so what you're going to see is a steady, seemingly never-ending stream of them appearing out of the doorway to the Blight and running along the path to the exit.

 

If the doorways were really very close to each other, you might only have 100 or so in the Ways at any given time, though the stream would last for days.

 

100,000 x 3 seconds each (a rather fast average, of course) = 300,000

300,000 / 60 seconds-per-minute = 5000 minutes

5000 / 60 minutes-per-hour = 83.33 hours

83.33 / 24 hours-per-day = 3.47 days

 

So, about three and a half days if they kept up the quick pace nonstop, sleeping in shifts. Conflicts and inefficiencies bumping the average up to 6 seconds each would cause it to take 7 days. 9 seconds each would take 10 days (a Randland week, as I recall).

[The Lost One]

Are we sure they did not lose any trollocs to the Black Wind in the trip through the Ways?  Maybe they knew they would lose a portion and didn't care.  I would think it takes a little time for the Black Wind to consume them.  Maybe they lost a few thousand trollocs on this trip and got the rest through while the Black Wind was feeding (distracted).  I am sure the trollocs would move a LOT faster knowing that they had a chance to die.

 

Just a thought. 

[Orange Fescue]

Are we sure they did not lose any trollocs to the Black Wind in the trip through the Ways?  Maybe they knew they would lose a portion and didn't care.  I would think it takes a little time for the Black Wind to consume them.  Maybe they lost a few thousand trollocs on this trip and got the rest through while the Black Wind was feeding (distracted).  I am sure the trollocs would move a LOT faster knowing that they had a chance to die.

 

Just a thought. 

Good point, Lost One. Since when has the Shadow ever cared if its servants lived or died?

[wvlr]

I guess what i'm getting at is as a writer myself why would RJ make a thing so fearsome in the first few books then it have no bearing at the last

 

Actually leebarr,

 

We did see something similar in the first few books.    Remember Lindrain?    She was of the Black Adja and knew a way to keep MS at bay.    She seemed completely unconcerned when she took the three to Flame.    If she could do that then probably some other BA could as well.

 

If the BA can do it then I would bet that the Forsaken could as well.

 

Then of course we have Padden Fain doing it as well.  But I doubt that he was involved in this particular move.

 

So the Forsaken/dreadlord that sent them through may have escorted them or may have access to a BA that knew Lindrain's "trick".    I personally doubt the BA escort because we did not see them at the battle - but maybe they only went so far & then left.

 

Add to that, the possibility that it was only a short/few minute trip inside the Ways and I do not see any functional discrepancy with this occurance.

 

 

 

That's my take on it - now fire away!

[DemandredFO]

wvlr, Did Liandrin actually say she knew how to repel MS or are you just assuming because we didn't see Machin Shin; I'm not being flippant, I'm just asking.  Even if Liandrin did say that, which I forget, she is Black Ajah, she probably lied.

Secondly, Fain didn't avoid the Black Wind, he was caught by it and he changed it.

[Luckers]

Are we sure they did not lose any trollocs to the Black Wind in the trip through the Ways?  Maybe they knew they would lose a portion and didn't care.  I would think it takes a little time for the Black Wind to consume them.  Maybe they lost a few thousand trollocs on this trip and got the rest through while the Black Wind was feeding (distracted).  I am sure the trollocs would move a LOT faster knowing that they had a chance to die.

 

Just a thought. 

 

Moridin's comments about the numbers that went into the ways match Rand's comments about how many arrived at the manor house in Tear.

 

Well, there would never be 100,000 in the Ways at the same time. They don't all pop in at once.

 

You're only going to get one going through the doorway at a time, so what you're going to see is a steady, seemingly never-ending stream of them appearing out of the doorway to the Blight and running along the path to the exit.

 

If the doorways were really very close to each other, you might only have 100 or so in the Ways at any given time, though the stream would last for days.

 

100,000 x 3 seconds each (a rather fast average, of course) = 300,000

300,000 / 60 seconds-per-minute = 5000 minutes

5000 / 60 minutes-per-hour = 83.33 hours

83.33 / 24 hours-per-day = 3.47 days

 

So, about three and a half days if they kept up the quick pace nonstop, sleeping in shifts. Conflicts and inefficiencies bumping the average up to 6 seconds each would cause it to take 7 days. 9 seconds each would take 10 days (a Randland week, as I recall).

 

Moridin cites that all went into the ways at the same time, there was no staggering going on. It then took them around a day and a half to get to Stedding Shangtai and a day and a half to run from there to the manor.

 

 

[Blackmoore]

The tainting of the Ways took 3 thousand years; they grew more tainted because the ways constantly draw upon Saidin.  Now that Saidin is clean, the taint in the Ways will slowly disappear.

 

Take a bucket of clean water.  Now start adding dirty water, allowing the excess to spill over the top into a sink.  The concentration of dirt slowly increases in the bucket until it matches that of the incoming dirty water.  Now, start pouring clean water into the bucket of dirty water.  Eventually, the water in the bucket will be clean.

 

That is what is happening in the ways. 

[elmis]

Are we sure they did not lose any trollocs to the Black Wind in the trip through the Ways?  Maybe they knew they would lose a portion and didn't care.  I would think it takes a little time for the Black Wind to consume them.  Maybe they lost a few thousand trollocs on this trip and got the rest through while the Black Wind was feeding (distracted).  I am sure the trollocs would move a LOT faster knowing that they had a chance to die.

 

Just a thought. 

 

Moridin's comments about the numbers that went into the ways match Rand's comments about how many arrived at the manor house in Tear.

 

Actually, they don't, well not completely anyway. Not that it matters in this discussion, because it actually underscores your point. Moridin says "thousands of Trollocs and hundred Myrddraal" and Rand, in his quick survey of the battleground, estimates that hundred thousand Trollocs are dead or dying. And that's not including the ones that were Deathgate'ed away. Might be nitpicking, but to me it seems that Moridin was very conservative in his statement at the tea party.

 

I'm still baffled by that segment by the way, I don't really see the danger anymore when 10-15 channelers > 100 000 Trollocs with Myrddraals (and surprise on their side).

[Luckers]

Mmm yes true, i re-read that comment and you are correct.

 

As for your second point, keep in mind that adding channelers distorts it. At Dumai's Wells 36 Aes Sedai were able to hold off nearly 300 Wise Ones between the Shaido and Rand's supporters. Ultimately i have no doubt that they would have lost, but it does reveal the way that channelers can block the vast advantage that channelers can have over non-channelers. For instance had the shadow had even 10 channelers in Tear i have no doubt things would have went differently--provided people didn't turn to Callandor and the Choedan Kal.

[wvlr]

wvlr, Did Liandrin actually say she knew how to repel MS or are you just assuming because we didn't see Machin Shin; I'm not being flippant, I'm just asking.  Even if Liandrin did say that, which I forget, she is Black Ajah, she probably lied.

Secondly, Fain didn't avoid the Black Wind, he was caught by it and he changed it.

 

Well unfortunately I do not have the book on me.  I will try to find it after work and post an exact quote.    But I am pretty sure that she says something to the effect that Moraine did not know everything and that she has ways or a way to avoid MS.

 

Yes she could have been lying but it did not seem like she was all that concerned about MS.

 

 

Moridin cites that all went into the ways at the same time, there was no staggering going on. It then took them around a day and a half to get to Stedding Shangtai and a day and a half to run from there to the manor.

 

Luckers, could you give us a quote for that.  I have KoD and re-read the "At the Gardens" section, but did not see that quote. 

 

 

 

 

Anyway, I see it more as a physical problem.  A Waygate entrance/exit is not like a Gateway that can be made bigger with more power.    The most that I could see going through a Waygate would be two or three at a time.  So by factoring that in - Shendare's times could be cut from 3.47 days to about half - 1.75 days or one third - 1.15 days + the additional travel time if the exit was farther away.  I would think that the Trollocks would not sleep until they got to the other side.  Mostly because sleeping Trollocks would just clog up the Ways.

[elmis]

Not sure, but I'm guessing Luckers took that from one of the timeline pages.