crescents and stars, oh my!

[RobertAlexWillis]

Nice interpretation of yours, but this is what we know from the books:

"...The al'Thor boy needed to be intrigued enough that he allowed her near him, off-balance enough that she could nudge him where she wanted without him realizing. One way or another, anything that might interfere with that must be controlled or supperessed. Nothing could be allowed to influence him, or upset him, in the wrong way. Nothing."

 

And?

 

Nothing in that says she is not acting in his actual best interest.  And her actions speak louder than her thoughts.  I notice you couldn't give an example a plan of his that she tried to force him to stop ... or a plan that she didn't actively try to help work.

 

Nothing can be allowed to upset or influence him in the wrong way, because that will probably kill him.  She wants to be able to nudge him ... away from catastrophe, in his own best interest.  The other Aes Sedai claim thats what they want to do, while they're mostly jockeying for their own benefit ... but its what Cadsuane actually does.

[wvlr]

I have a feeling that if Moiraine and Cadsuane meet again there won't be any fireworks, at least not between them.

 

OH!   I DO hope that you are wrong!    Cadsuane is a typical complete pompous ass AS.   As Stopper quoted above - She is indeed trying to manipulate him to her own ends and is not doing it nicely.     Instead she is provoking him and IMO actually making the problem worse (bringing the problem to a head - like a Cyst).    In KoD he seriously considered kicking her lousy AS butt out.    One Ass (Cadsuane)does not teach another Ass (Rand) humility and by doing such things, except by the first Ass getting slapped down rather spectacularly.      I think that Moiraine will come back and do just that.   Caddy will (I hope) accomplish her task only in that aspect that she (Caddy) will be on the receiving end of returning Moiraine's smack down.  

[Tyrell]

Cadsuane is *not* acting in her or the tower's best interests. Unless she's black of course, which I find it hard to believe, given what we know of her and her PoV's. She told Rand flat out, no Aes Sedai word play that she would act in his best interests, or atleast that the advice she would give him would be in his best interests rather than the towers. Something along those lines.

 

 

Edit : Tear in KoD is a clasic example of Caddy acting in Rand's best interests, although I think some will take it as an example of her being an ass, bullying Our Hero. She stops him from acting the Tyrant and having a fit, despite the fact that all his own terms had been met, and helps him make a decision that stops a civil war, instead of one that would have had Tear still stuck in civil war when TG rolls around.

 

[stoper]

And?

And I show him that Cadsuane didn't want to help Rand, she want to control him:

"...The al'Thor boy needed to be intrigued enough that he allowed her near him, off-balance enough that she could nudge him where she wanted without him realizing."

 

Nothing in that says she is not acting in his actual best interest.  And her actions speak louder than her thoughts.  I notice you couldn't give an example a plan of his that she tried to force him to stop ... or a plan that she didn't actively try to help work.

If you want to control someone far more powerful than you, first you must gain his trust.

...that she could nudge him where she wanted without him realizing."

 

Nothing can be allowed to upset or influence him in the wrong way, because that will probably kill him.  She wants to be able to nudge him ... away from catastrophe, in his own best interest.  The other Aes Sedai claim thats what they want to do, while they're mostly jockeying for their own benefit ... but its what Cadsuane actually does.

I know few more which didn't want him killed. Seanchans, The White Tower, Moridin, DO... does that mean they act in his interest?

 

My point is - what makes you think that Cadsuane's goals are Rand's goals, what she want is what Rand want, her right way is Rand's right way?

Maybe in the end we'll se that Cadsuane is the Creator himself, but for now...

I give you my example why I didn't trust her, why I think she want to control him not help him, why I think she has her own goals. Give me yours to count so hard on her.

 

OH!   I DO hope that you are wrong!    Cadsuane is a typical complete pompous ass AS.   As Stopper quoted above - She is indeed trying to manipulate him to her own ends and is not doing it nicely.     Instead she is provoking him and IMO actually making the problem worse (bringing the problem to a head - like a Cyst).    In KoD he seriously considered kicking her lousy AS butt out.    One Ass (Cadsuane)does not teach another Ass (Rand) humility and by doing such things, except by the first Ass getting slapped down rather spectacularly.      I think that Moiraine will come back and do just that.   Caddy will (I hope) accomplish her task only in that aspect that she (Caddy) will be on the receiving end of returning Moiraine's smack down.  

Totally agree.

[RobertAlexWillis]

If you want to control someone far more powerful than you, first you must gain his trust.

...that she could nudge him where she wanted without him realizing."

 

Thats also what you must do to help someone on the way to killing himself, and taking a whole bunch of people with him.  If Rand knew he was being manipulated ... EVEN FOR HIS OWN GOOD ... he would get rid of her ... EVEN IF IT SCREWED HIMSELF.

 

What is this nefarious end to which she is directing him?  Learning to be human again (laughter and tears) and victory at Tarmon Gai'don.

 

Amazing ... what a monster!  ::)

 

I know few more which didn't want him killed. Seanchans, The White Tower, Moridin, DO... does that mean they act in his interest?

 

Nope.  But none of them are helping him accomplish what HE wants to do, either.  Like ... cleanse the taint ... broker a successful treaty with the Seanchan ... stay alive in Far Madding ... etc.

 

My point is - what makes you think that Cadsuane's goals are Rand's goals, what she want is what Rand want, her right way is Rand's right way?

 

Because she helped him cleanse the taint ... survive the trap from Semirhage ... keep him alive after Fain cut him ... stay alive in Far Madding ... actually live up to his end of the bargain in Tear ...

 

Thats four examples.  Your example wasn't an action ... it was a thought.  You prove to me that her way is not in his best interest.  Show me which plan of his she's sabotaged.

 

Everyone who hates Cadsuane does so because she's not sugar coating everything.  When Rand is being an idiot, she tells him.  Well, thats exactly what he needs.

[wvlr]

Cadsuane is *not* acting in her or the tower's best interests. Unless she's black of course, which I find it hard to believe, given what we know of her and her PoV's. She told Rand flat out, no Aes Sedai word play that she would act in his best interests, or atleast that the advice she would give him would be in his best interests rather than the towers. Something along those lines.

 

 

Edit : Tear in KoD is a clasic example of Caddy acting in Rand's best interests, although I think some will take it as an example of her being an ass, bullying Our Hero. She stops him from acting the Tyrant and having a fit, despite the fact that all his own terms had been met, and helps him make a decision that stops a civil war, instead of one that would have had Tear still stuck in civil war when TG rolls around.

 

I think that you mis-intrepreted what I was saying, or maybe I just was not clear enough.   I never claimed that all or ANY of her advice was bad.     It is the way in which she gives the advice that as I said "is bringing Rand's Madness problem to a head".

 

KoD US HB Pg 460:

*******************

Caddy  -  "You can do as you wish, of course, but another piece of advice.    When the terms you offer are accepted, hold to them."

    Else no one will trust you, Lews Therin said, sounding entirely sane.   For the moment.

    Rand glared at Cadsuane, fists clenched hard, on the brink of weaving something that would singe her.    ................    The woman spent every moment in his presence challenging him!    The trouble was her advice was good.

*******************

 

Again, the problem is not the quality of Caddy's advice, but with how it is presented.

[RobertAlexWillis]

You know ... people say that they can't wait for Moiraine to get back and put Cadsuane in her place ... and yet Cadsuane is doing exactly what Moiraine said Rand would need, right before she tackled Lanfear.

 

Moiraine Damodred, from TFoH, ch 51, to Egwene:

 

"Rand will need both of you in the days to come.  You handle his temper well - though I may say your methods are unusual.  He will need people who cannot be driven away or quelled by his rages, who will tell him what he must hear instead of what they think he wants to."

 

I have a feeling that if Moiraine gets to talk to Cadsuane, she'll end up saying thank you.

 

It is interesting that you bring up the case in KoD, wlvr ... lets look at that.  She started counting every time he made ridiculous, childlike protests and leaped to conclusions, in a way that could be clearly shown as stupid.  He was pounding the table and yelling, making silly threats, long before she popped his bottom, for acting like a spoiled child.  He got angry because the Sisters got him exactly what he asked for.  Even more!  Let me repeat what you quoted, and then finish the paragraph:

 

Rand glared at Cadsuane, fists clenched hard, on the brink of weaving something that would singe her.    ...    The woman spent every moment in his presence challenging him!    The trouble was her advice was good.  He had given Alanna those terms.  He had expected them to bargain harder, gain more, but they had gotten what he actually asked for.  More.  He had not thought of fines.

 

Her actions took him from angry pounding and threatened hangings to calm, rueful consideration of what was actually best.

 

And he didn't yell at anyone else, the rest of the meeting.

 

What Cadsuane is doing is deliberately provoking him ... in situations where he is too smart not to see that he's being stupid.  Which forces him to what?  Learn to control himself.  And, incidentally, keep his word.  Encourage those who give good and faithful service.  Actually make the right choice.

 

Its not a method that would work for anyone, or from anyone.  But from Cadsuane, for Rand, it works.  The way she presents her advice is the only way he'll listen to it.

 

Cadsuane is precisely what he needs.  If he needs comfort, he's got his Min with him, but he also needs someone who is completely unintimidated by him, but not in love with him either.  Someone who can give him dead accurate political advice, and then help him back up his good decisions.  Someone who is not afraid to say "You're being an ass.  Stop it."  Min and the girls support him, but they would try to keep him "safe".  Cadsuane will actually help him do what he must ... keep him alive until Tarmon Gai'don ... and then defeat the Shadow, even if it kills him.  Given what the Aelfinn said to him, and Min's viewings, that is precisely in his best interest.

 

She has followed his strategy, and helped it work.  He would almost certainly be dead without her, if not on the plains of Cairhien (from Fain's dagger) then in a cell in Far Madding (where Slayer would eventually have caught up to him, or Fain would have).  She organized a defense at the Cleansing which stopped almost all the living Forsaken dead in their tracks ... when every other Aes Sedai with them didn't even want to let him try.

 

He keeps her around because, whether he knows it or not, she is exactly what he needs.  Even he recognizes her value as an advisor.  As someone mentioned, she serves much the same purpose as a Truthspeaker in the Seanchan system ... and is needed for the same reasons.

[wvlr]

Its not a method that would work for anyone, or from anyone.  But from Cadsuane, for Rand, it works.  The way she presents her advice is the only way he'll listen to it

 

I sorry Robert but I can't agree with that statement.

 

Rand already has a severe problem with his temper and has had for many books.    I don't see prevolking his temper as the ONLY way to persuade him.    I personally think that it is, close to, the worse way to do it.

[Tyrell]

Its not a method that would work for anyone, or from anyone.  But from Cadsuane, for Rand, it works.  The way she presents her advice is the only way he'll listen to it

 

I sorry Robert but I can't agree with that statement.

 

Rand already has a severe problem with his temper and has had for many books.    I don't see prevolking his temper as the ONLY way to persuade him.    I personally think that it is, close to, the worse way to do it.

 

Read on alittle

 

What Cadsuane is doing is deliberately provoking him ... in situations where he is too smart not to see that he's being stupid.  Which forces him to what?  Learn to control himself.  And, incidentally, keep his word.  Encourage those who give good and faithful service.  Actually make the right choice.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I sorry Robert but I can't agree with that statement.

 

Rand already has a severe problem with his temper and has had for many books.    I don't see prevolking his temper as the ONLY way to persuade him.    I personally think that it is, close to, the worse way to do it.

 

Then perhaps you can provide an example of someone persuading him using only sweet reason.  I will wait with patience.

 

You did notice that I gave an example of her tactics working perfectly ... right?

[stoper]

If you want to control someone far more powerful than you, first you must gain his trust.

...that she could nudge him where she wanted without him realizing."

 

Thats also what you must do to help someone on the way to killing himself, and taking a whole bunch of people with him.  If Rand knew he was being manipulated ... EVEN FOR HIS OWN GOOD ... he would get rid of her ... EVEN IF IT SCREWED HIMSELF.

 

What is this nefarious end to which she is directing him?  Learning to be human again (laughter and tears) and victory at Tarmon Gai'don.

 

Amazing ... what a monster!  ::)

Then maybe that's my problem with Cadsuane. I don't like the idea for the main character being manipulated like some blind idiot.

Maybe I like books based on stong characters, not puppets.

 

I know few more which didn't want him killed. Seanchans, The White Tower, Moridin, DO... does that mean they act in his interest?

 

Nope.  But none of them are helping him accomplish what HE wants to do, either.  Like ... cleanse the taint ... broker a successful treaty with the Seanchan ... stay alive in Far Madding ... etc.

Many of them helping him accomplish what HE wants to do.

Lanfear told him that Ashmodean is on his way to Choedan Kal and with that she give him his best weapon. Also she allow him to take Ashmo to teach him.

Taim help him to create the Black Tower.

Moridin saved his life at Shadar Logoth and told him how to defeat Sammael.

They want him alive just like Cadsuane, they need him for their own goals, he's their blind fisher.

 

...Your example wasn't an action ... it was a thought...

Exactly.

Elza also helped him to clean the taint, she saved his life from Osan'gar and she didn't sabotaged any of his plans.

But in her thoughts we understand that she want him reaching Tarmon Gai'don alive... where the DO must defeat him.

 

Of course Cadsuane's first actions are aimed to his trust.

I'll make another analogy with Moridin's game sha'rah: "The first object was capture of the Fisher. Only then did the game truly begin."

[RobertAlexWillis]

Then maybe that's my problem with Cadsuane. I don't like the idea for the main character being manipulated like some blind idiot.

Maybe I like books based on stong characters, not puppets.

 

Strong characters still have flaws, stoper.  Just because Rand can use the help of someone with centuries more experience doesn't make him weak.  Considering the many different kinds of strain he's under, its a pure miracle he's still alive and even marginally sane.

 

Just because he needs help, doesn't make him weak.  It makes him human.  Thats half the reason Cadusane needs to do what she does.  He tries to do everything himself, and he can't.  He needs to learn how to work with other people.

 

Of course Cadsuane's first actions are aimed to his trust.

I'll make another analogy with Moridin's game sha'rah: "The first object was capture of the Fisher. Only then did the game truly begin."

 

So ... I'm curious, stoper ... what do you think Cadsuane's nefarious end is?  What's her goal?

 

In all of those other examples, we pretty much know what the other person's hidden agenda was (or is).  So, what's Cadsuane's?  Personal power?  She already turned down the Amyrlin Seat, when it still meant something.  Besides, she's within just a few years ... possibly months ... of dying.  So, what is her mysterious nefarious goal?

[callandor]

Moiraine is going to cure Rand of his "I must become a rock, I must obsessively repeat the names of all the women who have died for me in my head, because I am an idiot" thing.

Nope, the first Cadsuanne will acomplish. The second needs no curing all the Two Rivers men share a similar outlook. It is also quite similar to the outlook that shinarians have. It may be a bit impractical but its part of an internalized chivelric code of conduct; i.e., do not hurt women, children or the weak.

The other Two Rivers men and the Shienarans share an unwillingness to hurt women, but Rand goes above and beyond that. His obsessive, pathological repetition of that list is unhealthy, a sign of his madness, and it does need curing. Oh, and have you ever seen Mat repeat his list? Or Perrin? Or anyone else? They may kill women, and they don't want to, but they don't punish themselves in the way that Rand does.

 

actually perrin has a list of his own, it aws all the two rivers folk that had dies in the fights with the trollocs. it was on a stone rock somewhere.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The difference is, Perrin was sad, and then moved on.  He put up a memorial, which is nice.  But he wasn't found in the middle of the battlefield afterward, in the dark, alone on his knees, rocking back and forth, naming them one by one.

 

Rand has a psychological problem.  My personal opinion is that it is guilty bleed-through from Lews Therin.  But Perrin's "list" is nothing at all like Rand's, either in its source or its nature ... or in the way it is damaging to him.

[Ahaz Flagg]

Hehe, had no idea there were people who disliked Cadsuane so much!!  I guess the reason I do not dislike her, is Min's Viewings.  Cadsuane will teach him and the Asha'Men something they will not like to learn.

 

Knowing this, it makes little sence to me to dislike her, it will happen no matter what Rand does, Min's viewings never fail.  So I just roll with it, if Cadsuane teaches him some manners along the way, well he is in serious need of them. Rand has become a big a-hole, and per what has been stated, Cadsuane works for Rand, and I have yet to read anything to suggest she has anything but his best interest at stake.

 

Besides, how can you hate someone who can put so many Aes Sedai in place?

[stoper]

Of course Cadsuane's first actions are aimed to his trust.

I'll make another analogy with Moridin's game sha'rah: "The first object was capture of the Fisher. Only then did the game truly begin."

 

So ... I'm curious, stoper ... what do you think Cadsuane's nefarious end is?  What's her goal?

 

In all of those other examples, we pretty much know what the other person's hidden agenda was (or is).  So, what's Cadsuane's?  Personal power?  She already turned down the Amyrlin Seat, when it still meant something.  Besides, she's within just a few years ... possibly months ... of dying.  So, what is her mysterious nefarious goal?

I don't know. Fame is the first and most harmless thing that comes to my mind.

 

Look, maybe in the end she'll help him, maybe I'm wrong to be suspicious to her and she's covered by light unselfish woman, but I don't like her methods.

I think she made him weak (and it looks like he thinks the same: "But what could Cadsuane possibly teach him? What would he let her teach him? The woman made him unsure of himself, uneasy in a way he had not felt since before the Stone of Tear fell.")

I think she disgrace him.

I think all in Westlands are in desperate need of a strong leader for Tarmon Gai'don. Someone who can unite them. And this someone is Rand.

And I think Cadsuane ruin this possibility.

I imagine myself on Darlin's (King Darlin) place. If I see this old woman treating this leader (The Dragon Reborn) like a stupid boy (and he accept this), maybe he really is a stupid boy. Why should I follow him?...

Also look at Alanna. How she behaves to Rand before and how she behaves in this chapter "Whithin the Stone" (KoD):

""Why, who would have expected you, my Lord Dragon?" she murmured, with a hint of asperity in the title. "Quite a surprise, wouldn't you say, my Lord Astoril?" So she had not warned anyone after all. Interesting."

 

On other hand look for example how Tuon change her opinion about Mat whe she saw him as a leader of his band, not lika a Toy.

The peoples follow strong persons not stupid boys.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I don't know. Fame is the first and most harmless thing that comes to my mind.

 

... she's already a "legend" ... I'm not sure you get much more famous than that ...

 

"But what could Cadsuane possibly teach him? What would he let her teach him? The woman made him unsure of himself, uneasy in a way he had not felt since before the Stone of Tear fell."

 

Given how he is acting, Rand needs to be less certain of himself.  He threatened to hang people who were agreeing to the terms he set!

 

I imagine myself on Darlin's (King Darlin) place. If I see this old woman treating this leader (The Dragon Reborn) like a stupid boy (and he accept this), maybe he really is a stupid boy.

 

While I imagine myself as Darlin, seeing Rand throwing a temper tantrum over getting what he asked for, and thinking "Wow, I'm glad Cadsuane can actually make him see sense.  And I'm glad he has sense enough to listen and keep his word."

 

The peoples follow strong persons not stupid boys.

 

And listening to Cadsuane makes Rand a strong person, instead of a stupid boy.  If he chose not to listen to her, when she is obviously right, or kick her out, when she's done nothing but help, then he would be a stupid boy.

[stoper]

I don't know. Fame is the first and most harmless thing that comes to my mind.

 

... she's already a "legend" ... I'm not sure you get much more famous than that ...

She's "legend" only among AS (if I'm not wrong?). And imagine AS holding the dragon reborn in her hands, that's a legend.

 

I imagine myself on Darlin's (King Darlin) place. If I see this old woman treating this leader (The Dragon Reborn) like a stupid boy (and he accept this), maybe he really is a stupid boy.

 

While I imagine myself as Darlin, seeing Rand throwing a temper tantrum over getting what he asked for, and thinking "Wow, I'm glad Cadsuane can actually make him see sense.  And I'm glad he has sense enough to listen and keep his word."

 

The peoples follow strong persons not stupid boys.

 

And listening to Cadsuane makes Rand a strong person, instead of a stupid boy.  If he chose not to listen to her, when she is obviously right, or kick her out, when she's done nothing but help, then he would be a stupid boy.

If you say so. She just made him looks like a fool in my eyes.

Maybe the final results are good, but her way to get them was wrong. And I think only Lews Therin's intervention in his head prevent possible conflict.

Same with the belefire. When Rand use it in front of Moiraine, she explained to him what belefire is and why it's so dangerous, Cadsuane slapped him.

 

Still, I can't see great leader being slapped on his face in front of all. No mater if he's wrong on not. Dignity I name it.

[RobertAlexWillis]

And imagine AS holding the dragon reborn in her hands, that's a legend.

 

You know ... she hasn't really made her involvement with him highly public. 

 

If you say so. She just made him looks like a fool in my eyes.

 

What ... when she got him to stop slamming his fists into the furniture like a five year old, or when she got him to actually keep his word like an adult?

 

We apparently have very different definitions of "a fool".  I think someone who will hold to the wrong course, alienating everyone around him just because he said so is a fool.  I think someone who can admit to having made a mistake, and then fix it, is a good leader.

 

Still, I can't see great leader being slapped on his face in front of all. No mater if he's wrong on not. Dignity I name it.

 

What you name dignity, I name foolish pride.  Who cares if he gets slapped?  If he's about to get lots of people killed ... would you rather she say "Oh, well, I must treat the Dragon Reborn with respect, therefore, all these people must die needlessly.  Let the world fall into Shadow ... as long as we show proper respect to this young half-insane man who is acting like a child."

 

Thats ... well ... foolish.

 

Anyway ... we obviously disagree, so I'll leave it there.

[Thunderbomb]

Good points RAW have to agree with you there, as I always thought Caddy was gunna teach Rand how to be a truly effective and great leader.

[Cabriana]

A good leader utilizes the resources around him to further his plans. Rand would have to be an absolute idiot to not utilize the experience of someone like Cadsuane. To not even give someone like that your ear? Cadsuane may not be a very likable person, but you don't have to like your allies. You simply have to be able to work with them and trust them (at least to a certain degree).

 

 

[Majsju]

There are different ways of showing "respect". One way is to be the typical brown-noser, never questioning a decision no matter how stupid it is. Which is probably the most disrespectful thing you can do to someone.

 

Another way is to show that you think the person is strong enough to accept when you show that he or she is acting like a moron, and intelligent enough to change.

 

In that sense, Cadsuane is probably the one person who shows Rand the most respect, by trusting he is strong enough to handle her standing up to his foolishness.

[aevogt]

i believe siuan was a novice with moirane, and that siuan had worn the stole for 10 years, after having worn the shawl for 10 years(correct me if im wrong.) This makes her say, 50-60 years old at most, as they passed novice and accepted quickly for the standard. This makes moirane somewhere around the same age. We have Read Cadsuane is 300 years or older wich doesnt makes her twice as old, but more or less 5-6 or very maybe even 7 times older, though that is unlikely. I dont believe Cadsuane was that much stronger in the power. Moirane ans Siuan were noted for their strenghts before the recent ''happenings''.

 

It's my opinion that with the combination of Min's viewing and Cadsuane's giant willpower it makes her the right person at the right moment to keep Rand a little back so he doesnt make wrong decisions.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

 

In New Spring, Moraine is 22 years old.  She was a Novice for three and Accepted for three.  New spring pg 34 - Elin had been "7 years a novice and had come to the Tower at 18"  That makes Elin 25  Next page "...she was three years the elder but the Great Serpent ring and banded skirts marked a fount of knowledge in novice eyes"  Which makes Moraine 22.  She came to the tower at 16 and had been there for 6 years (3 novice and 3 accepted)when she was raised to the shawl.  

 

That makes her 40 during TEoTW and roughly 42 when she took out Lanfear and herself. Since she and Suian arrived in the Tower at the same time and "were entered in the novice book the same day"  Suian is likely in her early forties as well.

 

 

 

[stoper]

And imagine AS holding the dragon reborn in her hands, that's a legend.

You know ... she hasn't really made her involvement with him highly public.

As I wrote above the game truly begin when you capture the fisher.

Anyway, this was just an example/supposition. I don't have the answers, that's why I love the books.

 

Anyway ... we obviously disagree, so I'll leave it there.

No, mate, it was nice dispute.

I was interesting why so many people like Cadsuane. And even if I still can't agree with your opinion it was good to see some of your arguments.

I hope the feature book will prove me right, but if that didn't happens I'll admit my mistake, though I won't let you slap my face (my foolish pride, you know ;)).

[druidravi]

I do not like Cadsuane even though she helped Rand . She is  the person who is ruder ..not Rand , with all that slapping and so . Aes-Sedai have been playing manipulators for so much time they can't stop it now .

 

I don't think she is black or so . Her advice is right , but her way of giving advice is what irritates me.