Healing Severing Incompletely - Can It Be Fixed?

[Tyrell]

Nynaeve incompletely healed Suian and Leane in LoC, To Heal Again (because of the whole need for a cross-gender healing to completely restore a severed person's strength) and as a result Suian and Leane aren't as strong as they were. My question is this :

 

Could they be severed again and then healed by the good Dr. Flinn to restore them to full strength or would this just put them back at their strength post-Nynaeve healing, with a woman healing them after a second severing further reducing their strength?

[bjclinton]

i've wondered the exact same question Tyrell, and my own thoughts are:

 

They may not even need to be "stilled" again to be completely healed. A male channeller should be able to "fill in the missing spaces" with the correct weaves that are missing. This is most logical solution based on other things we've seen in this series that require saidin/saidar weaves. It just seems like there are weaves missing for them to be completely heaeled.

 

I also suspect that if a male channeller did heal them appropriately, they would return to their full strength that they were at before being stilled the first time.

 

[Luckers]

Short answer: no idea. It depends entirely on whether the original state of their ability is still the same. Either way i suspect it requires removing what Nynaeve did, and i don't see either woman allowing that on the chance for their previous strength. Too much risk.

[Tyrell]

But so much to gain, to be back near the top of the Tower hierarchy, I dunno so much about Leane, but having to defer all the time must be driving Suian mad, besides, is there really a risk? I mean worst case scenario as far as they are concerned is that they are severed and Nynaeve heals them again back to their lower strengths, although I guess they may think that it can't be healed twice in the same woman.

[elmis]

I don't think we'll see that happen, and as the others I'm unsure if it could be done, but thinking it would require a stilling again before the attempt was tried.

[Luckers]

Well there is a risk in terms of perception--what if being severed again is permenant. What if the Asha'men can't heal them with Nynaeve's active healing--i mean, we know that issue is in play with healing physical wounds.

 

I'm not saying that these risks are fact or anything, but from Siuan and Leane's point of view, the risk of losing the ability again is the worst thing they could think of. For the hierarchial gain... i just don't see them doing it.

[DemandredFO]

I don't think siuan or Leanne will be healed because Moraine will then be stronger than her friend.  That is, if Moraine and Siuan recognize each other.  This theory is assuming Moraine and Mat and Thom run into Flinn.

[Nelal Hurcran]

In order to make the argument I plan on making, I have to explain what I believe the Healing of the served is like.

 

What Nyneve did sounds, to me, more like tying a weave into place to help the saidar along. In fact, that is the only thing that makes sense.

 

We know, from WH and other sources, that saidin and saidar mix not at all; in fact, the repel one another. This, to me, is why it is necessary to have a member of the opposite channeling group ( I'd say sex, but there are exceptions to that rule) Heal a severed channler.

A weave of saidin will connect the channler to saidar, but the two will not "mix", so no strength is lost. The same is true going the other way.

But when the same Power-type is used as a bridge, of sorts, is the kind that is being channeled, the bridge takes some of the power flowing through (I dont know where this power goes, though), resulting in a lessening of channeling ability.

 

Now that I have thoroughly confused you, I make my argument.

 

It wouldn't be necessary to "re-sever" Siuan or Leanne. One would just have to un-tie Nyn's weave, and get it out of the way. In the words of Herid Fel (sp?): "[You] have to clear rubble before you can build" (wrong context, but it applies here too, in my never-to-be-humble opinion).

[Luckers]

The issue to me is that what nyanaeve did does not seem to be a tied of weave in anyway. The weave caused changed, but that change isn't sustained by any form of weaving. It simply is an effect.

[Setalle]

It may not seem like a tied off weave, but what Nelal says has quite a ring of truth to it. Even severing them again would take them back to the emptiness that was there before. Isn't a person's channeling ability a part of their soul? I don't know, I think I'm starting to confuse myself!

I do believe that Siuan and Leane can be healed further, and from what we've seen of their character, the chance to be as strong as they were is a chance at least Siuan would be willing to take. Siuan and Moiraine will meet again, and the thought of being so much weaker than her best friend would be too much for her pride. (remember, just my humble opinion!)

[Papermache]

Saidar is in the way of where Flinn will have to put his Saidin. If Nynaeve's weave is untied, they will be stilled, severed again. It will need to be for Flinn to fully heal them IMO.

[Luckers]

Well, again, what Nynaeve did isn't like a crutch, it isn't a tied off weave allowing access to the power by use of that weave. It cannot be untied. What Nynaeve did was use the power to change what she fealt, she altered the state and the resulting reality was an effect, not a product.

[trakand_01]

We know, from WH and other sources, that saidin and saidar mix not at all; in fact, the repel one another.

 

Really? hmmmm. That raises questions in my mind about Mat's medallion... Could it be that it was made using Saidin, and is repelling the AS's flows? Maybe that is why it grows cold on his chest whenever a woman channels - it's physically repelling the flows.

[Surreall]

Mats, terangreal works against male challeners as well as female. Shown when Halima tries and it goes cold

[trakand_01]

Oh, i havent got to that bit yet.

 

Ah well, it was a nice theory while i lasted  ;D

[Darth_Andrea]

Mats, terangreal works against male challeners as well as female. Shown when Halima tries and it goes cold

 

That dosen't explain how Ravhin killed him with thunder bolts. Rand even makes note it didn't protect him from a male channeling.

 

 

Darth_Andrea

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

rand isn't all-knowing, and he just perceived it differently.

 

the way I've envisioned how the lightning weave works is that the power simply sets the conditions for a lightning bolt to hit a certain spot.  the actual lightning is from nature, not the OP.  when defending against lightning attacks, the OP is simply used to change the 'conditions' the attacker had created.

 

i'm not entirely sure if that makes sense to others...

[Luckers]

I got you Generic Aelfinn #2 (lol, cool name).

 

The key to understanding why lightning worked on Mat is to look at the way lightning works. Pretty much it is electrons who have been given enough energy to leap from their medium to the nearest positive state. Rhavin's lightning particularily wouldn't have been targeted, so nothing in the weave would have come near Mat. Literally all the weave would have done is energize the electrons and focus them in the general are of the New City.

 

It's much like throwing a rock with the power, the power gives the energy for the movement, but once moving the rock itself is not of the power. In this case the individual is merely throwing something a lot smaller than a rock. Not even throwing really, unleashing. Furthermore we witness in KoD that it is possible to focus energized electrons on Mat without directly touching him with the Power. Joline manages it.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Just in support of what Luckers and Generic Aelfinn said, Mat's medallion only stops actual flows from touching him.  As Luckers pointed out, even aimed lightning only involves creating areas of opposing charges in the air and under or around the target ... the actual flows of the Power did not have to touch Mat for the lightning to hit him.  Rand's conclusion was based on not having all the facts; I doubt Rand understands exactly how lightning works.  RJ goes out of his way to demonstrate the "indirect effect" loophole when Elayne is experimenting on Mat on their trip to Ebou Dar.

 

In addition ... Luckers is right, Nynaeve did not "tie off" a weave connecting Siuan and Leane to the Source.  She Healed their own innate connection imperfectly, because only saidin can Heal a woman's ability to channel completely.  RJ has repeatedly called what Nynaeve and Flinn do "Healing".  It doesn't involve any sort of "tied off" weave, so it cannot be untied.

 

I personally think that re-severing Siuan and Leane, and having Flinn or another man Heal them afterward, would work just fine.  Getting a cut on your arm Healed doesn't prevent future Healing from working on your arm.  But we don't know for sure ... and Siuan is not going to risk losing what she has before Tarmon Gaidon ...

 

And in a post Tarmon Gaidon world, I'm not sure she'd be willing to risk it either.  Their diminished capacity doesn't affect the joy of touching the Source, and I don't think Siuan will be interested in staying too close to the center of Power after Egwene proves herself the way she will during Tarmon Gaidon.

[Kaznen]

I agree with Luckers, GA#2, and RAW.  I looked at it like Suine and Leane had bone fractures that were improperly set and healed that way.  To heal it right the bone would have to be re-fractured, then set correctly. 

[Luckers]

I think I agree... I think more than probably severing Siuan and having a man heal her would bring her back to her original strength, but as i said, and indeed as Robert said much more concisely, Siuan would simply not risk the joys of touching saidar, even if the risk was a relatively minor one, which frankly, from a personal standpoint not channeler could concider this to be.

[Wayhey]

I'm sure Flinn will Heal them eventually...unless they all die first.  lol

[trakand_01]

Is it possible though that there would be a danger with re-severing/healing them?

 

If you look at it from the broken bone analogy, or think of a piece of material which has been cut and sewn back together, the more times it is broken in the same place (severed), the weaker it becomes, making it break much more easily in future...

 

Now i know it's impossible to be 'accidentally' severed - surely this would be burning out? - but the worst case would be for their connection to the one power to become tentative or weak... I'm not talking about their strength IN the power, but their connection TO it... What if, no matter how strong they were at wielding the power, over-exposure, or using it too often resulted in them... being cut-off somehow...?

 

 

Or is this a ridiculous theory? I'm just thinking of it from the point of view of a broken bone. It can be re-broken/set, but the more that happens, the weaker the join itself becomes, the more brittle, and the bone (although strong when used as normal) becomes more vulnerable to breaking if it's knocked.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Is it possible though that there would be a danger with re-severing/healing them?

 

Is it possible?  Sure.  We have no certain information, really, as to what would happen.

 

I don't think it would be a problem.  But I certainly don't know, and neither does Siuan (or Leane), which is why I don't think they'll risk it.

 

In my personal opinion, Siuan would be more likely to risk it that Leane, but I don't really think either will try it.

[wvlr]

Is it possible though that there would be a danger with re-severing/healing them?

 

Is it possible?  Sure.  We have no certain information, really, as to what would happen.

 

I don't think it would be a problem.  But I certainly don't know, and neither does Siuan (or Leane), which is why I don't think they'll risk it.

 

In my personal opinion, Siuan would be more likely to risk it that Leane, but I don't really think either will try it.

 

Well from the example with P. Fain and the Bubble of Evil where Caddy "healed" Rand after his being cut by the dagger over his old wound and once they got him back - Flynn did his additional heal over what Caddy had already done.

 

I think that it is possible to "re-heal" them (S & L) and I think that Flynn will do it.

 

The only reason that Flynn's healing of Rand in this instance was not complete, was because because of the "Evil" that existed in the two wounds.

 

Most "Healings" that we have seen so far, From Proficient Healers, are complete repairs leaving no scar.  If it is leaving no scar then it must be healed to its original condition.    Unlike a naturally healed bone which has significant bone mending growth, bonding the two pieces together.

 

Most healing in these books seem to be a return to original condition - with certian exceptions (Mat's healing - left memory gaps) but these appear to be more exceptions than the rule.