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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Why are the Seals weakening?


Wayhey
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We don't know why, but I have 3 theories:

 

1)  If the Seals work by stopping time locally (and by the description of what happens to the Forsaken this is a possibility), then the Bore and rest of the world are 3000 years apart, and the temporal strain causes the weakening.

 

2)  Rand himself is causing it somehow.  The seals becoming brittle or breaking always appears to coincide with him doing some major fighting with the Power--maybe because of him being LTT reborn the Taint connecting the two huge ta'veren (one in the realm of the deadd and one living) into a single person.

 

3)  Some combination of 1) and 2).

 

What are your ideas?

 

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Could it not just be a case of the Dark One trying to escape?

 

Lock me in a room, and eventually I'm gonna kick the door in, should I want to leave, admittedly this is a very bad analogy, since I am not the Dark One and the Cuendillar(spelling?) seals + whatever weaves and non-physical crap went into the whole sealing thing are not a locked door. But what I mean is rather than some somewhat complicated answers isn't it simpler to say that the Dark One has been trying to escape from his prison for 3000 years and is finally breaking through?

 

Edit : Beaten to it - Mr Ares you may be old but you move fast!

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Might it not simply be the constant strain put on the seals by the DO? Maybe they never really was sufficient and over the eons the DO repeated attempts at breaking free has worn them down.

 

As a piece of aluminium in an aircraft being constantly subjected to tearing forces that erodes it strength and finally, after many years, fail. Just as with the seals one wouldn't notice any tiring in the aircraft as a whole, everything would seem fine up until that final flight...

 

Now, I don't think that's entirely the case, the seals still seem to hold to some degree but they certainly is much less effective and the change, at least the outwards observable one, was fast. (just like an airplane crash)

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Realistically I believe that the weakening of the seals is the DO's doing. But, I've had a pet theory about this topic, thought the DO is probably the correct answer.

 

We all know the that Cuendillar gets stronger as you try to break it. What if after long periods of time without being stressed, it not only stops getting stronger, it actually begins to get weaker? I mean as soon as anybody realizes what they have is one of the seals to the DO's prison, it's wrapped up in cotton and hidden somewhere nice and comfy and warm.

 

The way I look at the seals (well, with respect to my theory at least) is that they are like a car battery. Turn on the car (attack the seals) and you are charging the battery (strengthening te seals) but don't turn on the car for like a year and the battery will be dead (seal are weak and breakable)

 

But like I said, it's far more likely to be the DO's work.

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You don't consider that a god putting strain on them for about 3,500 years has any chance of possibly having a tiny little bit to do with it?

 

Maybe, but we don't really know.  Why do the seals all seem fine when they are first found?  Why do they "feel evil" when they become brittle?  Why does so much to do with the Seals appear to coincide with Rand doing big things?  For all we know, the DO only becomes "aware" when he can touch reality (i.e. when the Bore is created and later when the seals weaken), and is "asleep" otherwise.  I really hope AMoL covers this whole Seal question.

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Could it not just be a case of the Dark One trying to escape?

 

Lock me in a room, and eventually I'm gonna kick the door in, should I want to leave, admittedly this is a very bad analogy, since I am not the Dark One and the Cuendillar(spelling?) seals + whatever weaves and non-physical crap went into the whole sealing thing are not a locked door. But what I mean is rather than some somewhat complicated answers isn't it simpler to say that the Dark One has been trying to escape from his prison for 3000 years and is finally breaking through?

 

Edit : Beaten to it - Mr Ares you may be old but you move fast!

 

But why at that time?  And why is the Dragon reborn at just the right time, about 18 years before the DO becomes active again?  There could be some kind of connection.

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We all know the that Cuendillar gets stronger as you try to break it. What if after long periods of time without being stressed, it not only stops getting stronger, it actually begins to get weaker? I mean as soon as anybody realizes what they have is one of the seals to the DO's prison, it's wrapped up in cotton and hidden somewhere nice and comfy and warm.

 

Shouldn't then other cuendillar objects become breakable?  There might be something to this, but we haven't seen it yet.

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But why at that time?  And why is the Dragon reborn at just the right time, about 18 years before the DO becomes active again?  There could be some kind of connection.

 

Why at that time?? The Dragon was reborn to fight the Dark One, thats the connection, its not coincidence!

 

The DO, over the course of 3000 odd years, works his mojo on the seals, weakening them, the pattern then takes the appropiate action by spinning out Mr Dragon to stop the DO getting his way.

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I've always figured it's the DO's 'corruptive nature', if you will, that has been grinding away on the seals for 3000+ years, and under that they're bound to snap sooner or later. Also, this is pure speculation on my part, but I don't think Lews Therin and the guys were just going to slap on the seals and leave it at that. I'm sure they would try to work on undoing the bore, once they could operate without a full scale war going on, but then all hell broke lose (literally), and just survival became the top priority.

 

We (POV characters) don't know of anything that can destroy heartstone, but that doesn't mean there is no way to do it, for all it's worth there could be a weave that turns it back into iron. :) If anyone should have the ability/power to weaken heartstone, it would be the DO.

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Shouldn't then other cuendillar objects become breakable?  There might be something to this, but we haven't seen it yet.

Like I said it's only a crazy theory. It's just something that I was thinking about, as it seems to fit the 'balance' theme going through the books (2 halves of th power, male and female good at different thing with the power etc etc) I'll admit that, myself I believe it's the DO's doing. Just thought that this theory it interesting.

The only answer I could give for why other cuendillar aren't weakening is that they haven't been mollycoddled like the seal have. Why would anyone have even slightly careful of something they thought couldn't possibly be broken?

But certainly during the beginning people who had the seals knew what they were and wouldn't risk damaging them in any form and so they grew weak...Well at least they grew weak to explain my crazy theory.

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I wonder if they weren't created using tainted Saidin?  It was the last counterstroke of the DO that tainted Saidin, so theoretically at that last moment, Saidin became corrupted, and that which was created with it was as well.  The ways seem to be a good example of what happens to things created by Male Aes Sedai channeling tainted Saidin, since in the case of the seals the tainted material is Cuendillar, it took much longer for the taint to corrupt/weaken them.  I wonder if the seal doesn't work similarly to a shield.  It prevents someone from reaching something, IE the DO from reaching the pattern, and it is held by focal points.  I wonder if the 100 companions didn't shield the DO, tie off the shield, and then encapsulate those focal points of the shield in Cuendillar to prevent them from being broken.  HOwever, since these focal points were made with tainted Saidin, they gave the DO the tiny little opening needed to work himself into the knots, and flex his proverbial muscles, much like Rand did escaping at Dumai's wells.

 

Of course this is all conjecture.

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Would channeling the True Power directly at the Seals make them stronger? If it is the essence of the Dark One's nature (that is how I see it), and given that that nature is rather alien (not as in green little men), then I would say the True Power can do the reverse.

Unless, of course, it has been tried before, and it didn't work. Otherwise I would say that Robert's idea is interesting, and 3000 years doing what he suggests is ample time for the Dark One to work his magic.

The way I see it, the Seals maintain the patch in place, but it's just a patch, not a perfect replacement for the original. There are bound to be a few infinitesimal cracks here and there, so the Dark One has been working on those.

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You don't consider that a god putting strain on them for about 3,500 years has any chance of possibly having a tiny little bit to do with it?

Maybe, but we don't really know.  Why do the seals all seem fine when they are first found?  Why do they "feel evil" when they become brittle?  Why does so much to do with the Seals appear to coincide with Rand doing big things?  For all we know, the DO only becomes "aware" when he can touch reality (i.e. when the Bore is created and later when the seals weaken), and is "asleep" otherwise.  I really hope AMoL covers this whole Seal question.
Of course we don't know. But that is a reasonble line of speculation to take. Shai'tan wishes to break out, seals & patch prevent Him from doing so, so he tries to break them. The first seal we see in EOTW is broken when we first see it. The evil feel would come from a certain evil divinity putting strain on them, the brittleness is when they are near breaking (it's taken a long time to get this far). Maybe you should have incorporated that line of speculation into your original post.

 

Could it not just be a case of the Dark One trying to escape?

 

Lock me in a room, and eventually I'm gonna kick the door in, should I want to leave, admittedly this is a very bad analogy, since I am not the Dark One and the Cuendillar(spelling?) seals + whatever weaves and non-physical crap went into the whole sealing thing are not a locked door. But what I mean is rather than some somewhat complicated answers isn't it simpler to say that the Dark One has been trying to escape from his prison for 3000 years and is finally breaking through?

 

Edit : Beaten to it - Mr Ares you may be old but you move fast!

But why at that time?  And why is the Dragon reborn at just the right time, about 18 years before the DO becomes active again?  There could be some kind of connection.
To Tyrell, I don't move fast, I'm actually prescient. I pretype my responses before the actual topics are posted, and just copy and paste them in place. To Wayhey, what possible connection could there be between an evil god who wishes to destroy the world and the person who is supposed to save the world from said god, according to prophecy? It's absurd, it would be like there was some sort of "Pattern" which was capable of interfering and causing prophesied saviours to appear in time for when they will be needed to save the world.....

 

Cloglord, I would say it would be more likely they made the seals beforehand, and all they needed to do would be to fix them in place when they got to SG, so they would be clean. Does anyone know of a source stating when the seals were made? BWB? If we don't have one, then it could be a possibility.

 

RAW, as good a theory as any I suppose, and more to the point it doesn't contradict what I wrote - Shai'tan widening the Bore puts strain on the seals indirectly, and I only said He was putting strain on them. So you have escaped with your hide intact once more, young man.

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    I never felt I had a "good" theory, mainly because LT's method of ultimate madness was not explained very well to us.  In order for us to understand how the seals are being broken, it would make matters much easier if we knew why they were needed in the first place.

 

    Why 7?  Why not 100+, for each companion?  Perhaps Mr. Ares knows the answer to this, as he always seems to have a wealth of hidden knowledge to draw from.

 

    The only theory I have ever produced is shaky, only due to the previously mentioned unknowns.  Perhaps when LT sprung his trap, the backlash thrown by the Dark One was not to make the male AS go mad (though the byproduct was certainly enjoyable), but instead to attach a finger (for the lack of a better word) on the power that created the seal in the first place.  We know from RJ that power directed at cuellindar strengthens it, but power in the reverse direction might have the opposite effect.  That from a question asked to him, I believe.

 

    If the Dark One could attach a thread of True Power to the seals, and start to pull power from them, over time, they could dissolve.

 

    Again, its not the best of theories, but its the only one that comes to mind... i think the knowledge of WHY the seals are breaking is intrinsic to the last battle itself.

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Well, the placing of the seals was propably made by ltt alone using Callandor. The 100 companions and the army was likely there just to keep him safe while he did it.

 

It would prpably be impossible for 100 channelers who can´t link with eachother to work together on placing those seals.

 

//dyring

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Just A thought:

Book one through three:

4 dead Forsaken.

Three seals broken... Three Black cords severed by Rand.

One Forsaken killed not by Rand.

Moiraine Balefired Be'lal.

One seal not broken.

Just a correction: Balthamel killed by tree, Aginor killed by self, Be'lal killed by Moiraine, Ishy only one killed by Rand. Ishy also only one with severed cord....also, cord severing in Eye matches up with destruction of first seal, not with any others, not with any Chosen deaths.

 

Well, the placing of the seals was propably made by ltt alone using Callandor. The 100 companions and the army was likely there just to keep him safe while he did it.

 

It would prpably be impossible for 100 channelers who can´t link with eachother to work together on placing those seals.

 

//dyring

Disagree. Not impossible, merely difficult, more than just one person placing seals in all probability. //my name, in case anyone has forgotten it already

 

I never felt I had a "good" theory, mainly because LT's method of ultimate madness was not explained very well to us.  In order for us to understand how the seals are being broken, it would make matters much easier if we knew why they were needed in the first place.
Seal the prison, maybe?

Why 7?  Why not 100+, for each companion?  Perhaps Mr. Ares knows the answer to this, as he always seems to have a wealth of hidden knowledge to draw from.
7 may be optimal number. Also, more will take longer to place (another reason for more than just LTT to work on placing them). Also, everyone on the boards knows you're supposed to summon RAW and Luckers when you need answers of this sort...Woohoo! I've supplanted them! Start singing my praises on that "kings of the board" thread! I shall pronounce myself Dictator for Life! *he said, as he subjected Mr Morlock to death by 1,000 cuts*

 

Your theory sounded a bit too much like a disagreement with mine (dissent will not be tolerated) so I got rid of it. I think one reason at least for the counterstroke was revenge - destroy the puny mortals who dare to defy Shai'tan (BBHN). Working on a way out at the same time isn't completely unreasonable.

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So Rand has something to do?

 

Consider this Rand shows up a full army behind him and the hear a voice.

 

"Comon, Oh Please break. Damm. Say hows next century for you?"

 

ahahahahaha!! :D

 

Rand: C'mon already! you've had 3,000 years!

DO: It won't break!.... like... i dunno... *breaks down crying*

Mat: Bloody great! The DO must be a woman, only a woman would postpone the end of the world!

Elayne:*does a haughty sniff*

Nynaeve:*tugs her braid*

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Well, the placing of the seals was propably made by ltt alone using Callandor. The 100 companions and the army was likely there just to keep him safe while he did it.

 

It would prpably be impossible for 100 channelers who can´t link with eachother to work together on placing those seals.

 

//dyring

Disagree. Not impossible, merely difficult, more than just one person placing seals in all probability. //my name, in case anyone has forgotten it already

 

 

Well, The first plan was for a circle to place them, meaning one person to place them while guiding the circle. So if one person could place them in the original plan... I doubt the change more than they haveto.

 

And LTT with Callandor would be stronger then most of the 100 together, so it couldent be a not enough strength issue, since anyone else with watever angreal they might have would most likely be weaker than one of LTT´s 7 splitted threads.

 

 

 

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Lews Therin did not have Callandor, we see it at the Hall of Servants in TSR, if Lews had had it I doubt anyone would have been able to recover it, or even dared try, and given that by the time he kills himself at the start of tEoTW Callandor is nowhere to be seen they would have had to take it from him sometime between the Strike at Shayol Ghul and his meeting with ishy. I don't believe that could have happen since with it, and easily mad enough to draw enough with it to destroy himself he would be near unstoppable, certainly not without the intervention of the incomplete cheoden kal or a large circle outfitted with angreal atleast, something which the Aes Sedai wouldn't have had time to organise.

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