How did Moiraine know????

[bjclinton]

In The Dragon Reborn, how the heck was Moiraine able to figure out exactly who it was (out of all of the foraken) that was in both Illian and Tear?? I dont ever remember it being explained, and i just finished rereading it....

[DemandredFO]

My guess is that it was either a.  from her visit with Someshta or knowing that dragon was going to be reborn, she found pictures or something with the foresaken's visage.  Just my guess.

[Davian93]

The descriptions of the dreams that everyone in both cities were having plus all the research she did between the end of tEotW and early on in TGH probably had something to do with it.  Also, it was a plot necessity for her know so that also might have had something to do with it.

[RobertAlexWillis]

To be honest, I've wondered the same thing.  The only explanation I can think of is the one Davian put forth: that she had run across a basic description of Sammael somewhere in her research, and she matched it with the description from the dreams everyone was having.  Ditto for Be'lal in Tear.

[Luckers]

Yeah, i've wondered too, and had basically the same conclusion as Robert.

[Cybertrolloc]

Thankfully there's not so many "they read the script" moments in WoT. Sammael is debatable: the famous scar and how much he loved the limelight. Darth Maul Be'lal: Loial said little is known about him and what he knew Moiraine said she didn't... SRtS

[Mr Hindley]

This has probably been hashed out already, but how come people living in Illian and Tear suffered from these Forsaken-induced dreams - I seem to recall people even ended up practically snarling at each other in Illian - but not people living in Caemlyn (Rahvin), Ebou Dar (Semirhage), or especially, Tar Valon (Mesaana) If it's just a question of the Forsaken shielding their dreams, how come Sammael and Be'lal didn't bother?

[DemandredFO]

Sammael considered Illain his, so he probably didn't care, Be'lal might not have because he was laying a trap.  Mesaana is hiding, ditto semirahgue and I think rahvin may have sorta been hiding

[Tyrell]

For the dreams - perhaps RJ didn't know exactly what he wanted for the forsaken at the time / decided to get rid of it later like the warder-shadowspawn sense that seemed to disapear after the first few books.

 

As to how she knew? Stand near one of them and shout their name! They instinctively start to turn around and bingo - positive identification! :P

[bjclinton]

ok- sounds like what i kind of figured too, but it was gnawing at me...thanks for the feedback on that.

 

as for your question Mr. Hindley- Rahvin and the others are cautious enough to shield their dreams, which is why no one else is suffering from them. Rahvin at the time wasn't in hiding- he wasnt even using a disguise while in Camelyn- he was openly there for any other forsaken to see him should they chose. But he was careful enough to shield his dreams; Be'lal and Sammael, however, did not bother to shield their dreams and as a result, they were affecting anyone w/in a few miles (give or take).

[Nelal Hurcran]

Rahvin wasn't shielding his dreams.

When Mat goes to Camlyn in tDR, Basil Gill, the innkeeper of the Queens Blessings, talks about how he had told someone about a dream he had had, then later heard his dream being passed around as gossip. When he tracked the romor to its scource, it was some guy on the other side of the city who said the he had had the dream.That\s the only example of it, though. There isn't really any more POVs from, or sceans with, Camlyners after that.

 

The others might be shielding their dreams, but i don't think that it is nessisary for saidar weilders to do so. Otherwise, all the novices and Accepted would be sharing dreams. Maybe some of the AS too, but we know that Moraine sheilds her dreams, so it is a likly bet that several, if not most, of the other AS do as well.

[Luckers]

The others might be shielding their dreams, but i don't think that it is nessisary for saidar weilders to do so. Otherwise, all the novices and Accepted would be sharing dreams. Maybe some of the AS too, but we know that Moraine sheilds her dreams, so it is a likly bet that several, if not most, of the other AS do as well.

 

Whilst you raise an interesting issue about the Accepted and the novices, we do actually know that all Aes Sedai shield their dreams because of such a leakage... though i have no doubt that the practice began with the inclusion ofprotection of their own dreams as much as to prvent such a leakage.

[Tyrell]

Honestly I'd never heard of the concept of dream leakage untill this thread, is there any specific place where it is described or has the idea been put together from various scraps?

 

Also I'm pretty sure that all AS/channelers don't shield their dreams, there's repeted occurences of Egwene contacting channelers through their dreams - Nynaeve, Suian, one of the Aiel Wise Ones, I'm sure there's more.

[wvlr]

Honestly I'd never heard of the concept of dream leakage untill this thread, is there any specific place where it is described or has the idea been put together from various scraps?

 

Also I'm pretty sure that all AS/channelers don't shield their dreams, there's repeted occurences of Egwene contacting channelers through their dreams - Nynaeve, Suian, one of the Aiel Wise Ones, I'm sure there's more.

 

I would think that there would be a little difference between shielding ones dreams from "leakage" (Incoming or Outgoing) and sheilding ones dreams from "invasion" (being spied upon or delibrately manipulated).    The WT AS have not seen a Dreamer in a long time and even then it was one without much power and under their control, so why would they bother with shielding against "invasion".

 

Just my guess - now rip it up.

[darvick]

Heres the quote from TDR,page 95.

Moiraine "Those who can channel the One Power. Those who are particulary strong in Spirit, can sometimesforce there dreams on others."

"Especially on those who are - susceptible. I do not believe Rand did it on purpose, but the dreams of those those touching the True Source can be powerful.For one as strong as he, they could possibly seize a village, or perhaps even a city."

"Aes Sedai learn to shield there dreams. I do it without thinking, when I sleep. Warders are givin something much the same in the bonding."

[DemandredFO]

I agree with Nelal Hurcran about Saidar wielders not having to shield their dreams.  The Wonder girls are strong in the power and strong-spirited, you no one complains of dreams of Lan, Rand or Gawyn, respectively.

[wvlr]

I agree with Nelal Hurcran about Saidar wielders not having to shield their dreams.  The Wonder girls are strong in the power and strong-spirited, you no one complains of dreams of Lan, Rand or Gawyn, respectively.

 

Yes, but we did not see every bit of training that they had at the WT.    Surely it could have been given in "Beginning AS Responsibilities 101".

[DemandredFO]

I don't that would be taught to accepted or novices

[lou]

messanna, semi, and mog shielded thier dreams because they had reason to, it would reveal thier disguises. they had reason to want to remain incognito or threaten thier own schemes. belal in particular, wanted to draw rand (the dragon reborn anyway) because he would be the only one to draw callendar, and belal meant to take it from him. sammael disdained rand as an untried farmboy, had traps set about the city and probably felt secure in his own power. IMO

[Mr Hindley]

Hmm, bit of an interesting trend here, then. Sammael and Be'lal = not afraid for people to know where they are so don't shield their dreams. Sammael and Be'lal also = toast.

 

Mesaana, however, is still completely incognito (apart from Alviarin knowing), I don't think any of the good guys have the faintest idea she's in the tower. Semirhage was also completely safe in her disguise, until she put herself into a dangerous situation. As for Rahvin, the only reason Rand found out where he was is that Lanfear spilled the beans. As we've seen so often among the Forsaken, arrogance and complacency is a quick route to oblivion...

[RobertAlexWillis]

I don't that would be taught to accepted or novices

 

Actually, it probably is.  Moiraine already knows how to shield her dreams, and apparently does it as a matter of course, even before being raised to the shawl (New Spring, chapter 5).

[cloglord]

It could be a number of reasons.  Moraine's explaination might help, she claimed that those particularly strong with Spirit sometimes projected their dreams.  It could be that These two, were particularly strong in Spirit.  Alternatately, they could be very bad at TAR and dreamwarding.  Maybe since they were generals, they didn't pay much attention in school during dream warding class, and once they becasme big bad forsaken, they just didn't bother shiedling their dreams, I mean what do they care right?  The other examples of Ravhin and Semhirage seem to be examples of forsaken with a little bit more, shall we say, finesse? 

[RobertAlexWillis]

For Sammael, a lack of finesse is entirely possible.  As for Be'lal, who should have been more subtle ... he was deliberately projecting, to some degree, in order to draw everyone into his trap. 

 

Its even possible that Sammael was projecting on purpose, too, hoping that if Rand crossed through Illian (which he apparently did) that he might get sidetracked and come after Sammael.  Without Callandor, or support, Rand would have been crunched up into little pieces by Sammael.

[johnnysd]

In The Dragon Reborn, how the heck was Moiraine able to figure out exactly who it was (out of all of the foraken) that was in both Illian and Tear?? I dont ever remember it being explained, and i just finished rereading it....

 

One of the times I met Robert Jordan I asked him this exact question. Harriet said that it was one of the best questions he had been asked. He said:

 

"You have to understand that Moiraine did not just go sit under a tree. She was on a quest. How she knew is important to the story and you will find out more about this in later books."

 

Now, we may never have this thread worked into the books anymore, but i was not an oversight by Jordan and actually he felt it was an important plot point. He also said that not many had picked up on this detail.

[bjclinton]

excellent! thanks for the response on that....exciting stuff and just another reason to look forward to AMOL.

 

I wonder what it could mean? The first thing that comes to mind is that Moiraine must have been given some type of knowledge from someone...something that was completely undiscovered or thought lost....