Verin and her 70 year project

[BrainFireBob]

Jordan was a nuclear physicist for years- he pretty strongly drew on the for the One Power and the "mechanics" of things like Portal Stone worlds.

[lou]

she could be just taking an interest in a future green. showing up in the the two rivers later might have been to round up any other girl with the potential.given the previous situation in the two rivers, having verin take a sister with five warders was fortuitous.

 

Alanna didn't have 5 warders, she had 2 and one was killed by whitecloaks.  I do agree that there is something up with Alanna, in company with Verin, going to the 2 rivers.

 

yes, i was thinking of myrelle. the situation in the two rivers did give verin an excuse to have another sister accompany her, did alanna volunteer or was she volunteered herself? if alanna was ordered to go (by suian) then it is not so suspicious, but if alanna put herself forward, then what was the motivation?

[cloglord]

Okay, prepare to go out on a speculative limb here with me.  I think Verin compelled her to do it. 

 

We know, from Verin's remarks at the old sick house, that she at least went to the 2 rivers in search of taveren.  We also know from her comments later, that if verin could split herself in three she would attach herself to each of the 3 taveren, "even if she had to marry them."  Now who has attached herself to one of the taveren, and in a sense married him?  Alanna.  Before she bonded Rand, she seemed very interested in doing the same to Perrin. She mentions that she is not so lost to custom as to do such a thing, "just yet."  Yet we know that she reached that point later.  Why the change in heart.  1 Faile offered to sneak up on alanna and kill her if she bonded Perrin, and 2. she'd just lost a warder.  I'm guessing that even Verin couldn't manage to convince alanna to find a reason to do such a thing.  Yet later, during the chapter in  LoC where Alanna bonds Rand, it is pretty obvious from Verin's POV that she has been using alanna's fragile mental state after her warder's death to manipulate her.

 

I think that alanna went with Verin because, verin couldn't split herself into three, so she tried to find someone to be her third, (the second being Moraine) to attach themselves to a taveren and keep them out of trouble.  Faile's interference and the death of her warder was enough to keep alanna from finding an internal justification for bonding Perrin, but was not enough to overcome Verin's manipulation afterwards and on the trip to Camelyn. 

 

I know its alot of speculation, but it seems to fit with alanna's behavior, verin's warning, and then unworried attitude to alanna's bonding of Rand.  It also explains why she accompanied Verin halfway across the world in search of taveren that may or may not be there when they arrived.     

[professorskar]

Quote:

 

what happens is entirely controlled in this case by the sisters controlling the device,

 

Does this say what I think it says? The sisters can control what happens! Brings up all sorts of possibilities for someone that has studied the device.

 

Yeah, remember though, that's for the test to become Aes Sedai.  They implied as much in New Spring that the sisters controlled what happened in the device.  Moiraine was pretty sure it was Elaida who  put in the image of her father.

[professorskar]

We know, from Verin's remarks at the old sick house, that she at least went to the 2 rivers in search of taveren.   

 

Probably not important to your actual point, but I thought they were looking for women who could channel?

[cloglord]

We know, from Verin's remarks at the old sick house, that she at least went to the 2 rivers in search of taveren. 

 

Probably not important to your actual point, but I thought they were looking for women who could channel?

 

Actually it is kind aimportant, but I'll tell you why I think she went looking for taveren.  In TSR, Perrin asks Verin why they came, Verin starts spitting out her BS about looking for girls who could channel, and Perrin gets mad and calls her on it.  When Verin is attempting to calm Perrin down she tells him that she will answer his question, yet the only other thing she says in the conversation, is a whispered comment about taveren over her tea cup.  If we assume she isn't lying to Perrin when she says she'll answer his question, then the answer to why she came is that she came for Taveren.  An answer that seems to be supported by her "splitting herself into three," comment later.

[lou]

well, she could certainly expect one of the three to show up in the two rivers, and was not disappointed. if verin had not been manipulating alanna, she certainly jumped on the chance as soon as alanna bonded rand against tradition.

[trakand_01]

OK, 18 pages is too much to trawl through to see if anyone has posted this before. I'm reading PoD and am reading the prologue. This is more or less a Verin POV and is riddled with suggestions. Verin is in the Aiel camp, not in black, but observing the AS who are prisoner by Sorilea. Some excerpts from her POV suggest that her 'project' is geared more towards something to do with AS;

 

"She could not help a surge of satisfaction. Early this morning in the Sun Palace, Sorilea had demanded to know what shamed wetlanders most... They still struggled to justify taking the path fate had pushed them down, but Verin already had reasons for the path she followed, and purpose. She also had a list in her pouch, ready to hand to Sorilea when they were alone. No need to let the others know... Life was going to grow much more difficult for the women in black. And her own efforts would be aided no end, with luck."

 

then a little further along...

 

"In some ways she would have preferred to have Tomas with her, but only some. Keeping secrets from your Warder was far more difficult than keeping them from strangers."

 

Shortly followed by

 

"A strip of red cloth was tied around Mendan's temples and marked with the ancient symbol of Aes Sedai. Like the other men who wore that, like the Maidens, he seemed to be waiting for her to make a mistake. Well, they were not the first, and a great way from the most dangerous. Seventy-one years had passed since she had last made a serious mistake."

 

She also mentions seeing worse than a stilled woman. 'Much' worse. What is worse to an AS than a stilled woman? She is stunned to see Irgain, an AS stilled by Rand, rolling grain in the clothes of a wise woman. She makes a particular point of noting her as having been Green. Then she says;

 

"But what was the woman doing grinding grain and dressed like the Aiel women! HAd she been put to work just there so Verin could see? ... Had she miscalculated? AT worst, it could not be a large error. Only, small mistakes sometimes proved as fatal as large. How long could she hold out if Sorilea decided to break her?"

 

I get the distinct impression from this prologue that her plan is to do with Aes Sedai. She hears very shortly after that Katerine Alruddin has escaped the Aiel camp, and her temper flares before she can stop herself "You let her escape?! She's red!". She makes much fuss over the ajah's of the women... could she be attempting to dwindle the Red?

 

I cannot remember, which Ajah is the largest? She seems to be counting numbers of Aes Sedai who can still channel. I have a nagging feeling Red is the largest... could she be planning to take on the Red? What was her 'big mistake' 71 years ago?

 

I know, i know, i repeat the big question!

[Tyrell]

IIRC the Red is the largest, closely followed by the Green. I think either the Blue or White was the smallest.

[Thunderbomb]

Red

Green

Brown

Yellow

Blue

White

 

i think thats the order of the amount of aes sedai in each ajah with red being the greatest white being the least

[lou]

verin decided to leave after hearing logain's report, and rand's proposed truce with the seanchan. i have wondered if this is the clue to where we might be expected to see her turn up next. logain's report was on events in the black tower, and there was a mention of logain's estate and status. i am not sure if this information was what motivated her to just leave, but i dont believe it is coincidence.

[BKVMC]

Dont forget the Gray  ajah  i  would put them above browns  in  numbers and under green :) and Hi everyone  i  have been an avid WOT series fan  for many years  but am new to this forum  looking forward to discussing these books with you :)

[BrainFireBob]

Or she went to the Borderlanders after hearing Rand's statement they were supposed to unite with him, and knowing he was ignoring them.

[CUBAREY]

Spoiler

 

I get the distinct impression from this prologue that her plan is to do with Aes Sedai. She hears very shortly after that Katerine Alruddin has escaped the Aiel camp, and her temper flares before she can stop herself "You let her escape?! She's red!". She makes much fuss over the ajah's of the women... could she be attempting to dwindle the Red?

 

Her plan for the captured sisters is quite different from her overall plan (whatever it is). She was planning and leter accomplished, to use a home grown version of compulsion to make the captured sisters turn in favor of helping Rand until TG (as it turned out she even did this to a member of the black). However, she did not compel the sister who had been stilled. Later that sister was healed by Flinn. So is this oversight going to be Verin's first mistake in 71 years?

[lou]

in verin's letter to rand in KOD, she cautions rand that the oath the sisters made to him would mean nothing to a darkfriend. i believe she knew about ezra, and if there was anyone else left from the black in the group, she knows who they are. why did she no denounce them?

[trakand_01]

Her plan for the captured sisters is quite different from her overall plan (whatever it is). She was planning and leter accomplished, to use a home grown version of compulsion to make the captured sisters turn in favor of helping Rand until TG (as it turned out she even did this to a member of the black). However, she did not compel the sister who had been stilled. Later that sister was healed by Flinn. So is this oversight going to be Verin's first mistake in 71 years?

 

How are we so sure this is completely different to her 70 year project? Could she have been somehow 'turning' sisters to her cause for 70 years? Could she be working towards having every full AS 'compelled' to do... something, which she has determined? In a way, to create one large Ajah, all with the same overall purpose...? Her research could have shown her something that said that the White Tower must point in one direction, and one direction only...?

 

I'm intrigued what her last big mistake was. I dont suppose there's anything in New Spring where Moiraine might mention another AS's past mistakes in her POVs?

 

Feel free to throw eggs and flour at my theory  ;)

[cloglord]

Her plan for the captured sisters is quite different from her overall plan (whatever it is). She was planning and leter accomplished, to use a home grown version of compulsion to make the captured sisters turn in favor of helping Rand until TG (as it turned out she even did this to a member of the black). However, she did not compel the sister who had been stilled. Later that sister was healed by Flinn. So is this oversight going to be Verin's first mistake in 71 years?

 

It could be, but I seem to recall a letter from one of the stilled sisters to members of the Red in the tower that claimed that she had been healed, but also that she was sworn to Rand.  I don't know if this indicates that Verin got to her, or if she's just grateful for being "un-stilled."  In either case, she appears loyal to Rand, and IMO is not likely to qualify as a new mistake.  I guess we'll see though.

 

How are we so sure this is completely different to her 70 year project? Could she have been somehow 'turning' sisters to her cause for 70 years? Could she be working towards having every full AS 'compelled' to do... something, which she has determined? In a way, to create one large Ajah, all with the same overall purpose...? Her research could have shown her something that said that the White Tower must point in one direction, and one direction only...?

 

Could be, I think it is especially likely that she has been using her weave on novices and accepted for the past 70 years.  Considering the limitations of her weave, that the subject must trust the weaver, the amount of time required, and the added effort of compelling someone with a warder, I think that accepted and novices would make extremely good candidates for this treatment.  They already trust and obey all aes sedai, there is ample reason for them to have a private "lesson" with Verin, and none of them have warders.  We also know that Verin has taken "special interest" in at least some of these novices, for example, Verin leaving honeycakes out for Siuan and Moraine, when it would be considered highly inapropriate for an Aes Sedai to be "making friends" with accepted. This theory would of course would give a reason for Garenia to have run away, explained why she successfully managed to escape through the same mechanism by which 9 out of 10 runaways are normally found, and it fits the timing of Verin's last mistake.

 

If this is the case, and she has been succesfully compelling novices and accepted fot the last 70 years it would suggest that her mistake was related to inexperience with her weave, and could indicate, along with the timing of her "70 year plan," that this mistake was when she began using the weave.  If this is the case then that makes a long list of Aes SEadi that could have fallen under her spell, according to the WoTmania FAQ on AEs Sedai age  the list of possible novices/accepted who's ages are known or can be reasonably estimated to this period is as follows.

 

Beonin, Demira, Escaralde, Kiruna, Melare, Rina, Slaita, Zerah, Moraine, Siuan, Elin Warrel, Atuan, Coladara, Desandre, Edesina, Brendas, Temaile, Pritalle, Aledrin, and Kwamesa, Katerine, Meidani, Zemaile, Aisling, Alanna, Calinya, Sarene, Delana, Leane, Myrelle, Sheriam, Tarna, Rafela, Beldeine, Liandrin, and Sareitha. NOt to mention Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene. 

 

That's a pretty interesting list isn't it? Siuan as amrylin, Leane as keeper,  and sheriam as mistress of novices?  Elaida and Tarna as the new amrylin and keeper, Egwene and Sheriam as the rebel amrylin and keeper?  How about the too young sisters? 

 

[TPOD: 16, Unexpected Absences, 341], Siuan tells Egwene about a pattern she has noticed about the Salidar Hall:

"Aside from Romanda and Moria, the Sitters chosen in Salidar are... they're too young.... Escaralde is the oldest, and I'm sure she isn't much past seventy [emphasis mine].... It isn't often the Hall has held more than one Sitter under a hundred, and here we have nine! ... When a woman is raised too young, there's a reason.... This time, there were more than enough sisters of proper age to choose from, and I can't see five Ajahs deadlocking on all of them. There is a pattern, and I mean to pick it out."

 

How did Verin manipulate Alanna so well?  How about Demira?

 

In case you can't tell, I've managed to get myself all crazy theoried up about this one.  I'm not saying its true, but this idea is the most compelling new idea I've had on this subject in some time, and I've been worrying this bone for quite a while now.

[trakand_01]

I'm stunned. I was all ready to duck the eggs but they didnt come!! I'm sure someone will pull one of the legs off this theory eventually but until then...

 

So say she's been compelling novices and accepted for 70 years, now she's perhaps considering that she has enough 'newbies' and has no chance of getting them ALL, so she's turning her attention to those who have been AS for longer than her, or whom she didnt manage to capture as Novices / Accepted.

 

I always thought it strange that all along Verin supposedly knew nothing of Rand's destiny, but suddenly was present when Siuan named him in Fal Dara (was it Fal Dara)?

 

IF Verin HAS been compelling novices and accepted... Moiraine, Siuan, Elaida... it is quite possible that she is one of the largest instigators in the whole story. One of the single most important people we know.

 

I wonder though, if she didnt manage to compel alanna. She tells Perrin to beware of her. Could this be simply because she suspected Alanna would bond him, or perhaps she knew she couldnt be sure of the woman herself, having not managed to compel her...

 

But if she has compelled Elaida, why would she allow the split of the tower to continue?

 

If she compelled Moiraine, it could answer the 'verin's lie' question. Verin says Moiraine sent her, Moiraine says she didnt. What if Verin suggested it to Moiraine in such a way that Moiraine agreed to allow Verin to say Moiraine sent her... Knowing that Rand trusted Moiraine as much as he would ever trust an AS.

 

How long do we think Mesaana has been in the tower, and how old is Danelle? Verin says she has seen 'much worse' than a stilled woman, that the Aiel are 'far from the most dangerous' people waiting to see her slip up. Could she have tried (if this theory goes anywhere at all i'm happy, i may as well continue to fuel it) to compel Mesaana, been punished for it somehow? What if all of this is actually MESAANA's plan... if she also (like some of the other forsaken) wants to keep Rand alive until TG, and is using the AS to protect him... Verin herself could be compelled and not even remember it.

 

I remember when Nynaeve and Elayne were compelled by Moghedian, they didnt remember.

[Majsju]

Keep in mid that Verins little trick is not real Compulsion. Actually, quite far from it, since it takes quite some effort to do the trick, and you can only make people do something they have it in them to do anyway.

 

 

[trakand_01]

So its... guidance, more than compulsion. Hmmm.

 

Perhaps i should have another think...

[The Lost One]

Very interesting ideas.  

 

Earlier on in the books, I thought we would discover that Verin had gone through the Rings of Rhuidean at one time.  She always seem to know things about what was going to happen and she seems to be trying to guide things to follow a certain path.

 

I do believe that she does know about somethings that will happen, could happen, should happen...whatever...and is trying to make sure everything goes in the right direction....or the direction she believes to be right based on the information she has.  

 

At this point I am not exactly sure where all her knowledge comes from, but I do believe it is more than one source and it has to do with the future (what will happen).  Based on how long she has been working on this project, I am sure some things have come and passed, but there is still a lot she needs to guide.

 

Great theories, ideas and quotes everyone!!  Verin is one of my favorite topics!!  Thanks.

[trakand_01]

I still think the key is the 'last serious mistake' she made 71 years ago. Presumably that mistake brought on her 70 year project - to rectify it perhaps? Perhaps her mistake had consequences and she has being attempting to put all right ever since then.

 

Hmm... so.. she's 'guiding' AS to follow / serve Rand.

 

Is it possible for a Darkfriend to turn back to the light? Could she have turned Black 71 years ago, seen 'worse than a stilled woman', met 'far more dangerous' people who were waiting for her to slip up, and realised her mistake, somehow turn back to the light, then spend the next 70 years trying to make amends, trying to 'compel' every novice, accepted and so on, to serve the Light, or the closest thing to it in this story - the Dragon?

 

Surely that WOULD be something you'd want to keep from your Warder...

 

And would allow her to lie, if you had un-done the oaths at becoming a BA sister, then turning back to the light. You're not going to walk up to the Hall and say "er, I was black, but i want to turn back. Can i take the oaths again please?".

 

If she IS compelling Aes Sedai, that may explain why she was so perturbed when Caddy appeared - what a spanner in the works she could be!

 

Its possible if this had happened, that Sheriam had done the same but somehow ended up in the 'service' of someone Dark... hence her beatings etc, the grey man in her bed.

[cloglord]

I'm stunned. I was all ready to duck the eggs but they didnt come!! I'm sure someone will pull one of the legs off this theory eventually but until then...

 

The idea that Verin is a part of some secret ajah is not new, and has had people trying to pull its legs off for quite awhile.  Its been most commonly refered to as the Purple ajah theory and the FAQ sums the aregument up like this.

 

Second Foundation Ajah Theory (aka Purple Ajah Theory)

Theory: Verin is a member of a secret society whose members preserve ancient knowledge for humanity's need at the Last Battle. The existence of the BA shows that it is possible for a secret group to exist in the Tower-- if there is a group dedicated to evil, why not a group dedicated to good?

 

Problem: There have always been rumors of the BA. Nothing can be kept secret for centuries in a place with so many people in it, and so much scheming as the White Tower. And yet, we've never heard any hint of this secret group.

 

 

I still think the key is the 'last serious mistake' she made 71 years ago. Presumably that mistake brought on her 70 year project - to rectify it perhaps? Perhaps her mistake had consequences and she has being attempting to put all right ever since then.

 

I think that this 70/71 thing is misleading.  Simply speaking, the 71 year quote comes from a time after the 70 year quote.  I think the difference between is that the calendar ticked over between the two mentions.  I believe the mistake and the beggining of the 70 year plan were pretty much concurrent.

 

Hmm... so.. she's 'guiding' AS to follow / serve Rand.

 

Not for the past 70 years she hasn't.  We know from her comments in TGH that her "first clue" came around the time of the siege of Tar Valon and the blood snow.  So whatever she's been working on for the last seventy years does not pertain specifically to Rand.

 

Is it possible for a Darkfriend to turn back to the light?

 

yes

 

Could she have turned Black 71 years ago, seen 'worse than a stilled woman', met 'far more dangerous' people who were waiting for her to slip up, and realised her mistake,...

 

Short answer yes, but the events she witness over four months in the portal stone could also provide ample material for "worse than a stilled woman,"  and any Aes Sedai could be termed, "far more dangerous."

 

... somehow turn back to the light, then spend the next 70 years trying to make amends, trying to 'compel' every novice, accepted and so on, to serve the Light,...

 

Since Katerine, Delanna, and Elza are on that list, it seems unlikely that she was "suggesting" they serve the light specifically.

 

... or the closest thing to it in this story - the Dragon?

 

See the bit above about how Verin didn't have a clue that the Dragon was reborn until his birth. ;)

 

IF Verin HAS been compelling novices and accepted... Moiraine, Siuan, Elaida... it is quite possible that she is one of the largest instigators in the whole story. One of the single most important people we know.

 

Yeah, that would be kinda cool, don't you think?

 

[aevogt]

"Earlier on in the books, I thought we would discover that Verin had gone through the Rings of Rhuidean at one time.  She always seem to know things about what was going to happen and she seems to be trying to guide things to follow a certain path. "

 

This was my pet theory for a while, not only that she had gone through the rings, but had gone through the redstone door to visit the Foxes.  However, in my last read of TGH, when the party meets Urien, he mentions Rhuidean and she askes him "What's Rhuidean?"  He tells her that it's where aiel men and women go to become clan chiefs and wise ones.

 

Now, isn't it possible that she knew, or suspected, from Corianne Nedal's notes that there was a cache of objects of the power in the Waste.  Where all the rest of the worlds dreamwalkers (minus the forsaken) just happen to live? 

 

Verin disappears from the storyline sometime after the middle of TDR and reappears in the middle of TSR. 

 

My question is this.  Could she have ridden hard enough to make it to the waste, enter rhuidean, hit the rings and the door (keeping her little notebook with her to take notes) then make it back to the tower, get Alanna, and make it to the two rivers a full week before the Whitecloaks? 

 

Since she ovretakes the tracking partyin TGH in less time than she should have been able to without killing many horses, she may know some way to get from A-B faster than horseback. 

 

I think she went to Rhuidean, stepped through the rings and the door and that's how she knows things others do not. 

 

When she leaves Rand's party at the end of KoD, she intends to make a quick stop in Tear to visit the Snakes.

[avacraft]

I don't think Verin has gone thru the rings in Rhuidan(sp?).  She would have had to ask the wise ones more info on the city and the rings before entering but when Rand, Mat, and Moiraine go in the wise ones start out surprised at such a thing and then realize things must change.  If Verin had gone thru before then it wouldn't of been such a big deal.  If Verin went thru without talking to the Wise ones then how would she know exactly where to find the rings or even that the rings existed??? Urien never mentioned the rings or any Ter'angreal in the city.