Verin and her 70 year project

[wvlr]

Yes, Verin has expreesed an interest in their study, yet has flat out said, in several ways, that her knowledge of them is very limited.  In her studies, she has learned of only 3, only visited one, was not strong enough to operate it, and had NEVER used one. 

 

Cloglord - Would those statements prevent her from being with someone else who was strong enough  or  who she linked with & possibly activated them giving her such an experience.  Since she did not activate them herself - she could have considered it as her being "dragged along" not actually "using" it herself.  And her return could have been the same way to the same stone.    Just trying to puzzel out how a AS could possibly work around the truth, to give a false impression.    I am not an advocate of the theory - but just looking for possible "outs".

[Jonn]

Sometimes I feel like I'm herding cats when it comes to making explanations of these "wild and outrageous" ideas of mine.

It's like some of you guys are willing to step only so far out of your circle of knowledge and the thought of taking a single step further is like asking you to step off of a ledge.

 

Look, I don't know for sure if what I say or think is correct. I freely admit that, but I do think that the only way to find out is to be open to the possibility that I could be moving toward an answer. The only way to find out is to take it as far away from safety as I can think to.

 

We all agree that Verin is acting off of information that she has been privy to and most have not been. I think this is true, I feel it. Still, we have examples that she could be using her knowledge of the Dragon Prophecies in concert with a Dreamer's notes.

 

Now, do we have an example of how a Dreamer can foresee the future? Yes we do. Egwene. She has visions, but they are often symbolic. What she can glean from them is often not too specific. Same thing goes for someone with the Foretelling. they aren't often able to remember what they have foretold or what the meaning of what they have seen truly is.

 

OK so we're talking about the actual Dreamers and Seers being confused. You really think that the notes from such a person would be so helpful that a person could base all of their important decisions on them and come out rosy?

 

OK, Verin has a stunning intellect, great attention to detail, some delving skills with minor compulsion and the access to archives afforded to a senior member of the Brown Ajah. Combined with a Dreamers notes, she shouldn't need anything else, besides her warder and an angreal. Right?

 

Thing is, she is uncannily correct, almost all of the time. She is too precise most of the time. She shows up with a taveren's knack of being at the right place at the right time.

 

You really think that she could have this ability simply because she has some old notes and simply because she is smart?

 

Moiraine. She was lucky and she has had some extraordinary means to help guide her to where she eventually ended up, the hero that she is, a legend.

 

Verin isn't endowed with the strength in the Power that Moiraine has. By what we can tell she wasn't born a noble with considerable political weight and wealth such as Moiraine had.  Still she has managed to entangle herself in the thick of THE defining events in her Age.

 

I'll make this personal note about Verin. You all agree that she has knowledge of future events correct?

 

How does she have this? Some of you think that it's her study of the Prophecies and Coriannin Nadeal's notes...but is that enough?

 

The Prophecies have to to with the Dragon and his role in events, what he must accomplish, what happens around and to HIM. Corianin's notes...do they tell of the future...or Verin's future?

 

Verin seems to be following a very specific path, specific to where she needs to be almost to the minute, to the second. Very precise details, she makes sure to pay attention to in every action she does. Things like appearing to lie about Moiraine sending her...very precise, razor's edge type subtleties that surround her.

 

How can things as vague as prophecies about other people and visions from a 500 years dead Dreamer, drive someone so specifically as Verin to be so precise in what she does?

 

She could simply be very brilliant or talented and lucky...but her actions say something to me. There's more. There are layers at work here. The other person who jumps out at me who behaved so precisely but so mysteriously is Moiraine.

 

And now we know for sure that Moiraine was acting on things that were shown to her from an extraordinary source. Now given what we know, I realize some of you are only willing to accept what we've already seen, or something securely established by an event in the text. Fair enough. But I happen to believe that there are some things that we cannot know, will not know until more is revealed to us. That there are things that we have seen that are incomplete, there's more to be learned of, that previous examples have only been clues to.

Now, to discover these things are we simply going to limit ourselves to strict precedent? Or are we willing to be a little less safe, to take a chance that a crazy idea could lead to an answer?

I mean, I've stepped out of the circle where there's a warm fire and light (and acceptable, reasonable ideas) and into the dark maybe, where I can't be entirely sure of what I'm looking into, but maybe this is where to look if there are things we do not know enough of from what we can see.

[CUBAREY]

Verin not only knoes the prophecies and has the Notes of the Last Dreamer she has a third source of information to guide her.  When she wenr through the Portal Stone with Rand, Mat Ingtat, et., al., she spent 3 to four months living her life over and over in a countless number of variations.  We know from Rand's POV that he lived a string of 'failed' lives. We can also suspect from Mat and Ingtar's reactions that they all did. Now, Verin may not no what choices to make to succeed but she may remember enough from those lives to tell her what major choices not to make.

 

 

 

[cloglord]

Sometimes I feel like I'm herding cats when it comes to making explanations of these "wild and outrageous" ideas of mine.

It's like some of you guys are willing to step only so far out of your circle of knowledge and the thought of taking a single step further is like asking you to step off of a ledge.

 

That's because the circle is plenty big, Jonn.  Why don't you stay here and have a conversation with the rest of us cats.  Take a drink from the Corianin cream bowl, sharpen your claws on the prophecies of the dragon, or take a whiz on the portal stone.  Otherwise, you'll probably just be caught by animal control as a stray.  Oohh! I like metaphors! ;)

 

Now, do we have an example of how a Dreamer can foresee the future? Yes we do. Egwene. She has visions, but they are often symbolic. What she can glean from them is often not too specific. Same thing goes for someone with the Foretelling. they aren't often able to remember what they have foretold or what the meaning of what they have seen truly is.

 

Yes, we have an example of a dreamer who learned to interpret her dreams all by herself.  Now that she has learned, she is certain of her dreams.  We also have examples of foretellers who are novice foretellers.  Elaida is the oldest one that we have a clear POV from, and she's only 45 or 50 years old.  These are not good comparisions when talking about foretellings from AoL aes Sedai or even to compare to the likes of Gitara.

 

OK, Verin has a stunning intellect, great attention to detail, some delving skills with minor compulsion and the access to archives afforded to a senior member of the Brown Ajah. Combined with a Dreamers notes, she shouldn't need anything else, besides her warder and an angreal. Right?

 

Correct.

 

You really think that she could have this ability simply because she has some old notes and simply because she is smart?

 

Considering that we have absolutely no idea what is in the notes, certainly.

 

Verin isn't endowed with the strength in the Power that Moiraine has. By what we can tell she wasn't born a noble with considerable political weight and wealth such as Moiraine had.  Still she has managed to entangle herself in the thick of THE defining events in her Age.

 

Verin also has had access to a secret angreal for the last 40 years, which I would submit puts her on a OP level with or above Moraine.  If estimates of Verin's age at 225 are conservative, and she arrived at the tower at the maximum age of 18, with her 11 years of training, she has spent the last 196 years as an Aes Sedai, a feat not without its own political weight, and that means that she has been paid by the WT for her service, something on the order of 196,000 gold crowns.  I think that makes up for whatever difference in wealth Moraine might have had.

 

I'll make this personal note about Verin. You all agree that she has knowledge of future events correct?

 

As has every character who has ever heard about the Dragon Reborn, so every character in the books has knowledge of future events, at least to the extent that they know that the DR is prophesized to be their salvation.

 

How does she have this? Some of you think that it's her study of the Prophecies and Coriannin Nadeal's notes...but is that enough?

 

Potentially more than enough.

 

How can things as vague as prophecies about other people and visions from a 500 years dead Dreamer, drive someone so specifically as Verin to be so precise in what she does?

 

Because under her facade, she is actually a very precise person.  She has cupboards full of notes taken in her own personal cipher, I'd say that is attention to detail.

 

I realize some of you are only willing to accept what we've already seen, or something securely established by an event in the text. Fair enough. But I happen to believe that there are some things that we cannot know, will not know until more is revealed to us. That there are things that we have seen that are incomplete, there's more to be learned of, that previous examples have only been clues to.

 

I understand you completely, Jonn.  And if AMoL was supposed to be book 4 instead of the last book, I would agree, in fact, when it was book four that was next out, I DID agree.  I remember questioning why Verin was so interested in Perrin's hammer in the 2R's, and eventually, 7 books later, it came out that there was a very specific prophecy related to Perrin's hammer that Verin was apparently acting under.  Wow, that was really cool, but the time for those types of revaltions is coming to an end, if it's not been hinted at by now, it really has no place in AMoL, it would come off as contrived, and would take screen time away from the hundreds of other things that could be wrapped up, tied together, or otherwise dealt with.

[trakand_01]

Quick question, and probably the most obvious one i've ever asked.

 

How long ago was LTT?

[RobertAlexWillis]

He died to start the Breaking, about 3500 (possibly up to 4000) years ago.

[trakand_01]

Ah, that ruins my next question then. I was wondering if it was at all possible that an AS or more likely Kin member was old enough to have been around in his time, that could help Rand with LTT.

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Nope.  Unless you count the Forsaken  ;)

[avacraft]

On the last page, someone was talking about the Aes Sedai who was raised after she had been in the Daughters of Silence, IDK if they got their answer but in the glossary in the back of the book it says that Saerin Asnobar was this sister.  Just hoping to clear that up.  And I believe that Verin's distinct knowledge of events is a mix of her extensive study of the prophesies, Corianen's Notes, and her experience in the 4month travel thru the portal stones.  An Aes Sedai with her experience would probably be the best at analyzing what mistakes would lead to which lifetimes and how to avoid those mistakes.  Added to her other studies, this experience could definitely help her to be in the right place at the right time a lot.

[World_of_Wheel_of_Time]

Couple of apologies and statements...  ;D

 

@ Cuberey

 

Sorry about the Rey thing, someone else posted a response to you calling you Rey, so I assumed that Rey was a nickname or something  ::)

 

I'll take back my statements for a couple of years, until I actually learn what they mean, so until then, ignore my comments...

 

@ Jonn

 

I don't like cats... I'm allergic  :P

 

But very interesting rebuttal, I agree with most, but I think that with Verin it can vary. The simplest explanations and the most complex ideas can be the truth with her, there is no reason that you couldn't be correct, but we just don't know...

 

@ Cloglord

 

NICE SIGGY, I LIKE THAT SHOW!!!

NICE

 

I like how you brought up Foretellings and Dreaming as one, but I don't think that those along with the Prophecies are enough. Verin has to have another source of information, since dreaming isn't perfect.

 

@ General people

 

I like the idea of Verin following the Prophecies and interpreting them, very good idea. I don't like the idea of following the Notes, honestly, Jonn has me convinced that a Dreamer can't tell the future perfectly, and that there must be another source of information. This source could be the Ter'angreal or the Portal Stones and other dimensions (I think that's what he said).

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

The problem with foretelling or Dreamers is not that the Dreams are not informative but those who have them (and those who have heard them) do not have enough information to decipher them.  We (the readers) can quibble about certain aspects concerning Elaida's foretelling or Egwene's Dreams but we all come to the same general conclusions concerning most of them because we have more information then either Elaida or Egwene. Now obviously Verin would not have all the information we have but she seems to have a hell of a lot of knowledge which I assert would make it possible for her to make educated guesses about a lot of things that might be disclosed in the Notes and other cryptic sources especially as time goes on and she gets more and more information that is relevant.

 

P.S.

 

To World of Wheel of Time:

comment about "Rey" was not meant seriously, I thought I had a smiley after it?  But in any case, if you must shorten my alias then "Cuba", "cuba" or "cub" is preferred-- Rey being my last name and I have to many bad memories of professor's using the Socratic method using "Rey" as a homonym for "Mud" :'( :'(

[cloglord]

@ Cloglord

 

NICE SIGGY, I LIKE THAT SHOW!!!

NICE

 

Show?  What show? ;)

 

The problem with foretelling or Dreamers is not that the Dreams are not informative but those who have them (and those who have heard them) do not have enough information to decipher them.

 

It hasn't been mentioned here, but simply because Corianin Nedeal was a dreamer does not mean that her notes are a compilation of her dreams.  In fact Nedeal was described as the last dreamer, but also as having barely deserved the name.  I think it is completely plausible to assume that Nedeal's reputation as a dreamer could be ascribed wholly to her research in dreamter angreal, and doesn't nessecarily mean that she had the "dream ability." in the same way that Egwene or Bair has it.  Considering the large number of ter angreal tha were studied by Corianin, it could be assumed that she studied all of the ter angreal that the white tower had access to and that dealt with TAR in some way.  Maybe corianin discovered some heretofore unknown use for the accepted test ter angreal, and this explains Verin's odd foreknowledge of events, and why she did not share the notes with Egwene, who was soon to undergo testing in the same.  This is all just speculation of course, the point being, we don't know what is in corianin's notes, and so it is probably premature to make any assumptions about whether they are sufficient to explain Verin's oddness or not.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Maybe corianin discovered some heretofore unknown use for the accepted test ter angreal, and this explains Verin's odd foreknowledge of events, and why she did not share the notes with Egwene, who was soon to undergo testing in the same.

 

Now THAT is an interesting idea ... I hadn't considered that Verin might know about the potential for resonance between the twisted ring and the Accepted rings, because of Corianin's studies ... but Egwene's test did produce results, especially in the third episode, that are strangely close in several details to reality.

[cloglord]

So, I got to thinking along this line of thought, and it reminded me of another point that had been brought up in this thread.  Verin's scar.  Then I recalled that nynaeve had had something similar happen to her,...when she came out of the accepted rings for the third time. 

 

TGH Ch. 23 The Testing  "'What is this?'  she [sheriam] said sharply, turning Nynaeve's palms up.  Nynaeve's hands quivered with a sudden pain she had not felt before.  Driven through the palm of each hand, right in the center, was a long black thorn.  Sheriam drew them out carefully; Nynaeve felt the cool Healing of the Aes Sedai's touch.  When the thorn came free, it left only a small scar on front and back of the hand.  Sheriam frowned. 'There shouldn't be any scarring.'"

 

I'm not sure what this means, but it could suggest that something similar to what happened to Nynaeve, happened to Verin during her one trip to TAR. 

[BrainFireBob]

I always took the two remarks in context (with Verin's reflections on her one use of the ring) as implying that injuries acquired in tel'aran'rhiod are more "permanent" than those acquired in the real world.

[cloglord]

And yet, we don't have an indication that the rebel sisters caught in the nightmare in TAR while scouting the tower, suffered from any healing abnormalities.

[BrainFireBob]

Did any suffer any severe tissue damage that would leave that kind of scar?

 

Soft tissue joint damage wouldn't show, and possibly would only be experienced in case of exertion.

 

Scrapes et al may not be severe enough, the same would apply to surface burns, I imagine. Nynaeve's hand was pierced-through, Verin nearly had a fatal experience. Considering the scar, I'd say an arm laid wide-open with risk of bleeding to death. I don't recall any of the tortured sisters having comparably tramautic injuries.

 

Of course, RAW would know the anatomy better than either of us.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Of course, RAW would know the anatomy better than either of us.

 

... I would?

 

Probably not actually ... I'm hardly a medical doctor ... but then, a knowledge of anatomy isn't really necessary here.

 

The more I think about it, the more this connection makes sense, and the wounds are part of it.  Healing, if done in a timely fashion, isn't supposed to leave scars of any kind, even with relatively severe wounds (not that the people in the Tower really seem to experts in Healing ... even the yellow Ajah ... but that is another topic).  Clearly Verin expected the Healing to work, and it didn't work as she expected it to ... otherwise she couldn't have made the comment that it "didn't work as it should".  It is indeed similar to Sheriam's surprise when Nynaeve's wound doesn't Heal completely.

 

In the category of further suspicious coincidences ... who was there to Heal Verin after her trip to Tel'aran'rhiod?  Anaiya.  Who was very interested in finding out if Egwene was a Dreamer ... and seemed confident that she had a way to tell for sure?  Anaiya ...  Who is one of the Aes Sedai specifically mentioned as visiting the wonder-girls in the kitchens ... and the only one without an obvious reason*?  Anaiya ...

 

I don't know that anything concrete comes out of it ... but its an interesting connection between Verin, T'A'R, and Anaiya.  Anaiya is apparently a fairly skilled Healer.  She stands lower in strength than a fair number of sisters, but was included in the circle to Heal Mat ...

 

... and she made an extra visit alone to check on him ...  ;D

 

Too bad nothing much will come out of it, since Anaiya is dead now.

 

She does seem to have a knack for bringing out people's Talents though ... she's the one who brought Nicola to look at Mat when he came to Salidar, discovering that Nicola could see ta'veren.  I wonder how Anaiya knew to bring Nicola to look at Mat?  I mean, she knew that Mat is ta'veren, of course, but why did she think that Nicola might see something around him?  Its not like she brought all the novices to come look at him ...

 

... wow ... did I ever go off topic.  Oh well.

 

*The five sisters mentioned as visiting are Verin, Elaida, Alanna, Anaiya, and Sheriam.  Verin, of course, is in on them being the hunters, Elaida has plans for Elayne and is suspicious of the others, Alanna was still acting weird about having what happened during Egwene's test (and how about her showing up with Verin in the Two Rivers later, eh?) and Sheriam is the Mistress of Novices.  As far as we know Anaiya's only reason was to visit her potential Dreamer ...

[cloglord]

I was looking through my compilation of RJ statements, and found this that I thought bore directly on the subject at thand.

 

from the 2005 dragonCon Q&A

 

Aubrey: During the raising tests for Accepted and Aes Sedai, are the ladies taking the tests actually inside of the World of Dreams.

 

Jordan: No…the…well, I am not going to say where they are for the tests for Accepted, that might be a RAFO, probably not, but it might be. For the test for Aes Sedai, they are in effect inside what you might call an uber-virtual reality device where what happens is entirely controlled in this case by the sisters controlling the device, but it is a virtual reality that is so terrific that it is reality for you. You die, you are dead. No game over, start again. You are dead.

 

At the very least he thought that the whereabouts of the accepted testing was a RAFO.  Don't know if this was a "might use it later" RAFO, or a "would give to much away." RAFO.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

what happens is entirely controlled in this case by the sisters controlling the device,

 

Does this say what I think it says? The sisters can control what happens! Brings up all sorts of possibilities for someone that has studied the device.

[lou]

alannas interest in egwene might not be so odd,egwene did ask (after her test) what it meant to be green. she could be just taking an interest in a future green. showing up in the the two rivers later might have been to round up any other girl with the potential.given the previous situation in the two rivers, having verin take a sister with five warders was fortuitous.

[cloglord]

she could be just taking an interest in a future green. showing up in the the two rivers later might have been to round up any other girl with the potential.given the previous situation in the two rivers, having verin take a sister with five warders was fortuitous.

 

Alanna didn't have 5 warders, she had 2 and one was killed by whitecloaks.  I do agree that there is something up with Alanna, in company with Verin, going to the 2 rivers.

[krelianzg]

1) Those aren't "messages through time." As to Dreaming, it's a message in the present tense based on causality and statistical certainties, not "from the future, oooo-OOOOO-oooo." Nedeal's notes are records of similar messages given in the past which may still be quite valid- Dreaming, of course, lacking the absolute certainty of Foretelling. Dreaming and Foretelling are as close as we get to "messages through time"- Portal Stone worlds aren't a form of time-travel, Jordan ripped them straight off from Lorentz-Einstein transformations and the "multiple worlds" interpretation of quantum mechanics, most clearly laid out by Dirac.

 

 

I'm just curious, where do you see the connection between Portal Stones and Lorentz transformations? The many-worlds link is pretty blatant, but I'm not seeing the other one. Admittedly it's been a few years since I last studied any of that stuff, but aren't the Lorentz equations used to described the warping of space-time relative to motion?

 

 

 

 

[BrainFireBob]

The way they work.

 

Lanfear's explanation, plus the fact some distort time primarily, some distance- reference frames moving at differing speeds relative to reality.

[krelianzg]

Ah, didn't make that connection before.

 

That's pretty cool to see concepts like that woven into a fantasy setting.