Verin and her 70 year project

[aevogt]

Verin already knew there was a cache.  As soon as Urien tells her the women go there to become wise ones, a bell goes off in her head and she realizes "hey, that's where the cache is, I'd better check that out as soon as possible"

 

As far as asking the wise ones, Verin is Aes Sedai, why would she have to ask the wise ones permission to do anything.  My impression is that unless an Aiel is going entering, the slopes above the valley (where the city is located) are generally deserted.  They don't post a guard because why would they, the Aiel don't go in there unless they have to.  When Moraine goes, she just goes, she doesn't really ask permission.  Aes Sedai again.

[lou]

that's not entirely true. the wise ones told moiraine that if she did not go to rhudean, she would die. if moiraine did not bring lan, she would die. they revealed this too soon, moiraine was sopposed to ask, but the wise ones spoke out of turn.

[BrainFireBob]

Inaccurate- story of the peddler. The Aiel *do* keep watch.

 

Verin's activities are also accounted for at enough points for her to never have the opportunity to go to Rhuidean.

 

She has the notes of a prophets and is quite probably a KC scholar- and she's had centuries to put the pieces together with two sources. That's sufficient.

 

For the record, she's also only ever used a Portal Stone once- in tGH with Rand. She says this flat out at the time.

[aevogt]

The Aiel keep watch for peddlers, not AS who don't want to be discovered.

 

But, Lou is right that Moraince was tipped off by the Wise ones

 

I think you're probably correct, BFB.  She really couldn't have gone from TV to the waste, back to TV to get Alanna and then to the 2Rs in two months.  More likely she left for the 2Rs shortly after giving Egwene the ring.

 

It works only if we step outside the story and start giving her attributes she doesn't really have, like the ability to move faster than horseback.

 

[cloglord]

I absolutely disagree with the theory that Verin went to Rhuidean, went through the rings, then came back.  That being said, there is a way that is could have happened.

 

Inaccurate- story of the peddler. The Aiel *do* keep watch.

 

Verin's activities are also accounted for at enough points for her to never have the opportunity to go to Rhuidean.

 

She has the notes of a prophets and is quite probably a KC scholar- and she's had centuries to put the pieces together with two sources. That's sufficient.

 

For the record, she's also only ever used a Portal Stone once- in tGH with Rand. She says this flat out at the time.

 

You are correct, to that point, she had never traveled by stone, but we are talking about a time after TGH, so her statements then are NO indication that she did not travel by portal stone after that point.

 

Second, she has the means to travel by stone.  At that point in the story, she  HAS traveled by stone, she has studied the stones, at tleast to the extent that she took a trip to the one on Toman head once before she was transported to it, and she is aware of a stone, "As close as the waste."  While her statement about a stone in the waste, does not exactly state that she knows of a stone IN the waste it certainly is indicative.  Further, we know that Verin has had a past interest in Aiel, from her conversation with Urien in TGH, and that Rand found out about the stone at Cheander from a book about the Aiel.  It is certainly not a stretch to think that Verin has read the same book on the aiel that Rand had, and coupled with her study of portal stones, It is somewhat likely that she was in fact referenceing the stone at chaender when she made her, "no stone closer than the waste comment."  If she used the stone, she could have easily avoided notice of the Aiel, if the assumption is that Rhuidean is unguarded except when someone is using the rings.

 

So, technically, it is possible that Verin returned to the stone outside of the stedding, used her angreal, her knowledge of portal stones, and her past experience, to travel to Rhuidean, walk through the rings, portal stone herself back, go back to the tower, collect Allanna, and then make the trip to the two rivers.  However, it is EXTREMELY unlikey that it she did. 

[BrainFireBob]

Is Verin strong enough to use the Stones- because she didn't use the one to Toman Head, Rand did. And she couldn't see or otherwise determine what she did- there's no way for her to gave gained the knowledge or ability to have done so.

[aevogt]

In order to transport several hundred people and pack mules, Rand has to use an angreal that is almost strong enough.  Rand it many times stronger than Verin

 

Verin has an Angreal, the turtle broach.  She is probably strong enough, with the angreal, to use a portal stone.  I think she didn't use the portal stone to Toman Head because she wasn't strong enough to take the entire party with her, or maybe was testing Rand.

[BrainFireBob]

And she didn't even know how to do it, nor could she learn by Rand doing it, since she can't see saidin weaves.

[Tyrell]

I don't really like the idea of her going to Rhuidean, but on the weaves front, Rand didn't weave anything, been a while since I read TGH, but IIRC he just grabbed as much Saidin as he could and visualised the symbol he wanted. or something.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Rand didn't weave anything, been a while since I read TGH, but IIRC he just grabbed as much Saidin as he could and visualised the symbol he wanted.

 

Oh, he weaved something all right.  He just doesn't know what he did, like half a hundred other things he weaves without knowing it.

[cloglord]

Is Verin strong enough to use the Stones- because she didn't use the one to Toman Head, Rand did. And she couldn't see or otherwise determine what she did- there's no way for her to gave gained the knowledge or ability to have done so.

 

As mentioned, Verin does have an agreal, which I would guess, is enough for her to transport herself, and while it is true that she could not learn anything directly from Rand, she could learn many indirect things from him.  For instance, she did learn, firsthand, that using the wrong symbol in conjuntcion with the destination stone symbol is not much fun, nor is it the quickest way to travel.

 

That said, Verin had better things to do than to go on some wild goose chase to the waste, by means of a highly experimental mode of travel, in search of something that she had very little clue about.

[trakand_01]

Verin has an Angreal, the turtle broach. 

 

I'm just reading the prologue of book 8, and it mentions a brooch in her pouch, but I'm pretty sure it's a Lily - is this an RJ inconsistency or does she have 2? This is mentioned in the section where she compels Beldeine, after the Wise Ones have left the tent.

 

The section ALSO mentions her having 'guided' Sorilea and another WO towards agreeing she can have time alone with each AS; does this mean that she somehow compelled them too?

 

We also get one of the best insights into the restraints and work-arounds of the three oaths (and i believe prove that Verin is still under their influence). A WO who's name escapes me, starts with A, can't channel... no, its' gone, anyway she says that Verin will not say anything to Rand about Katerine Alruddin having escaped. Verin says something like;

 

"I will say nothing to him"

 

and then immediately thinks, 'A note, perhaps? It required some thought.'

 

She's obviously thinking how to tell him without actualy SAYING it. Fantastic insight into her mind-workings.

 

 

[lou]

And she didn't even know how to do it, nor could she learn by Rand doing it, since she can't see saidin weaves.

 

not to mention that the whole party landed on toman head several months later than when they ;eft. there is some time issues with using the stones. this would make it less likely for verin to attempt to use them.

[avacraft]

Verin has the Lily Broach Angreal while Elayne and Avienda use the turtle brooch Angreal. 

[OverRon]

A new poster and WoT fan here.

 

I've read through all the posts here, and there have been many thought provoking ideas. For instance, I liked the idea about Verin being an unknowing agent of the pattern. I don't mean she's a Ta'veren, more like she recieves the effect of being steered by a Ta'varen but without affecting others. Maybe a Talent she has or something that was spun into the pattern like with Ta'veren. She has her 70 year plan and knowledge of the various prophecies, and her Talent, which she uses to guide her to be in the right place at the right time. So this could explain why she was in the Two Rivers and where to meet up with the party hunting the Horn of Valere (although it doesn't explain HOW she met up with them). Also any decisions she makes could have been influenced by this Talent, so it might seem that she's recieving knowledge of future events. Try not to blow too many holes in this wild theory of mine  ;)

 

I also quite liked the idea about the dreamer Ter'angreal and the Trials Ter'angreal. That Verin knew if you used the Trials Ter'angreal when near the dreamer ring, it would show the future or a highly probable version of the future. But that depends on things, like how that rasing-to-Accepted Ter'angreal works. Can it be pre-programed before going in, so you'd channel, set the Ter'angreal to "future" and jump in with the ring nearby? Or does it need Aes Sedai activily channeling into to create the virtual scenarios? Also, was it Egwene's Talent of dreaming combined with the dreamer ring that caused it to go screwy on the third jump through?

 

As for the 70 year plan itself, I believe it's just to make sure the Dragon Reborn makes it too Tarmon Gai'don, whatever the cost. I realise she didn't know that Dragon had been reborn right away, but she may have guessed (correctly) that he would appear within her lifetime. As it had been noted by others (I can't remember who though) that through the ages, that False dragons where becoming more and more frequent the closer to TG they got. Or maybe she read, in the Aes Sedai dreamers notes, that there was a prophecy that the DR would be born soon. And knowing that it would happen soon, she got clued in on all the prophecies about the DR, and put into place, plans that could be executed in case of certain events occuring.

[aevogt]

I am starting a reread and noticed something curious.  After Moraine and Suian are raised, Suian is immediately given the task of decifering 40 or 50 year old reports from the head of the Blue Eyes and Ears, Cetalia.  If it was 50 years ago, that would make it roughly 70 years before the time of the later books. 

 

Suian is investigating events that took place in Tarabon, Saldea and Tarabon.

Is there anything that specifically connects Verin to one of these places.  Verin seems to know an awful lot about Saldea.

 

Anything know of a link between Cetalia and Verin?

 

Or, was this just to establish the basis for Suian becoming the eyes and ears of the Blue before being raised to the Amrylin Seat and I'm reading too much into it because I'm out of other ideas?

 

 

[Ashaman Kovan]

Any ideas on what she's talking about when she says it was "20 years ago the last time she made a serious mistake"? I would think it would have to be something pretty substantial for her to consider it a "serious mistake". Or what about when she reminices about a man saying her smile reminded him of his mother right before he tried to plant a knife in her ribs and her smile being the last thing he saw? And all the talk about the wise ones stares not bothering her compared to other stares she'd endured from men and women alike. What types of operations would she have been involved in to be in these kinds of situations? Any ideas?

[BKVMC]

a  few sisters  have aluded to  a situation  20  years ago  there was cadsuane , Pevara ,  elaida ( i  think ),  Toveine and verin  im assuming its all tied to whatever vileness  happened in the tower at that time. I have always  been under the impression  that it had something to  do with  BA  directing the actions of some sisters  in the tower  that  were unaware  of them being BA and a  couple sisters  closing in  on the Black sisters  but someone screwed up but im not sure  no one has said what happened for certain yet.

 

[professorskar]

a  few sisters  have aluded to  a situation  20  years ago  there was cadsuane , Pevara ,  elaida ( i  think ),  Toveine and verin  im assuming its all tied to whatever vileness  happened in the tower at that time. I have always  been under the impression  that it had something to  do with  BA  directing the actions of some sisters  in the tower  that  were unaware  of them being BA and a  couple sisters  closing in  on the Black sisters  but someone screwed up but im not sure  no one has said what happened for certain yet.

 

 

If I recall correctly, the vileness was a period of intense hunting down of men who could/were suspected of being able to channel.  There was an extremely high number of on-the-spot gentling, which is against Tower law.  I believe the event was instigated by the Black Ajah to help in their hunt of finding/killing the Dragon Reborn.

[trakand_01]

Has min had any viewings of Verin? I forget... I know that when Rand was speaking with Sorilea and the AS from Elaida's embassy (who had captured him), just before Dashiva etc try to kill him, it is very sudden that Min has the viewing 'they will all serve you, Rand, in their own way'.

 

She hadn't seen this before, but it seems quite likely that it is the result of Verin's 'persuasion'.

 

I am still confused by her obsession with the numbers of AS who will swear to him. It seems obvious to me that her aim is to get them to swear to  him, but why concerned with the numbers?

[Cockta]

1. The Lie. "Moiraine sent me."

 

What does this do, but bring the feeling that Moiraine was still meddling, still attempting to get her own way. It was to allow Rand the delusion that Moiraine was NOT attempting to control him that she did not travel with him at that time, and this is something that Verin knew. Therefore the only conclusion I can draw from such an unnesassary lie (why did Verin not merely say 'the Horn is of interest to the Brown' or any of a hundred other reasonable and true comments that could be taken for her purpose).

 

Well, if that was a straight-out lie, than she is a darkfriend, or at least not bound to the Three Oaths. If it is a lie, we can never know, well, only if a member here knows the answer.

[DemandredFO]

I remember Cadsuane saying she nearly had the Black Ajah but they slipped through her fingers.

[RAND AL THOR]

"What you could. You sent Verin to shepherd me, but I'm no sheep, Moiraine. You said I could go where I wanted, and I mean to go where you are not. "

 

"I did not send Verin." Moiraine frowned. "She did that on her own. You are of interest to a great many people, Rand.

 

I have not yet managed to find the quote where Verin actually says "Moiraine sent me." But this makes it clear that it was a LIE.

[Llewin]

Concider that RJ has shown himself not unaware of the need to remove the crutch that Moiraine was in order for Rand to grow as a leader. He removed her, and through his intention to bring her back we know that that removal was specific to removing her from the game in order that Rand step up, and not have anyone to lean on (as opposed to removing her for thematic purposes).

 

Luckers, I'm not sure I agree with you here... Although removing Moiraine from the picture may have been, in part, giving Rand room to grow as a leader, I think it was done thematically for the most part, specifically, to help drive Rand's obsession with women who have died over the edge... After all, which name is (paraphrasing here) 'written in fire' at the top of his litany of names? And if she hadn't 'died' fighting Lanfear 'because Rand was too weak'...would he be as obsessed as he is about the litany?

[Jonn]

Lukers,

I might also add that RJ seems to have replaced Moiraine with Cadsuane if we go by your model of what Rand is in need of in the narrative.

 

I actually believe that Rand didn’t exactly lean on Moiraine as a crutch anyway. He seemed to start accept her position as an advisor, so long as he was the one asking for her guidance on a matter.

 

And this, I don’t think, was a problem for Moiraine. I think she had to disappear because she knew her primary goal at the time was to defeat Lanfear. The secondary part was to ensure that Rand did not go after her, as he would be compelled to do so as evidenced by the burning litany Llewin has mentioned.