S3E8 - He Who Comes With The Dawn

[A Memory Of Why]

Starting this up as im assuming the Mods are occupied with their life 😇

 

Season 3 - Episode 8: He Who Comes With The Dawn
Director: Ciaran Donnelly

Writers: ??

Runtime: 1 h 10 min

  Quote

Episode Description: Nynaeve, Elayne, Mat, and Min confront the Black Ajah and their futures. Moiraine and Lan prepare to face their fate. Rand and Egwene set their destinies in motion.

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Mod note:

Let's keep DM Tidy, and try to keep all discussions pertaining to S3E8: He Who Comes With The Dawn to this topic for the next few weeks.

When reading beyond this point, you should expect to encounter Full Spoilers Up to the ending of Episode 8 only, and full book spoilers in this topic.

Edited April 17 by SinisterDeath
Kept it consistent with the other topics

[SinisterDeath]

Thanks for that, I totally forgot to make this last night

[Irvyne]

Well, here we are.

I have many thoughts. 😅

First of all, easily the best season finale yet, but we all know that is a VERY low bar to clear...

 

- Elaida went through the doorway and spoke to the Aelfinn? That didn't happen in the books, did it? Or did I just not remember that rather important plot point? At any rate, it adds a bit of extra drama to her take-over, so I didn't mind it.

- What was the point of setting Sammael up to be the Asmodean stand-in, if they just throw it away and eh... string it up... in a single episode? "You will train Rand." "Oh, no you won't. Forget I said anything."

- Melindhra approaching Lan from behind with a spear. Me: "Are we already at the token impaling for this episode??"

- I'm glad they addressed Elayne's knowledge of Lord Gaebril, but I feel like it was rushed through very quickly. It should have had more moments of confusion on both sides. "What do you mean Lord Gaebril? There's no such person." "What are you talking about? He practically raised me." etc. etc. They both just came to their conclusions super fast. Probably because there was a LOT of plot to fit into this episode.

- Balefire looked great. There was no discussion about its dangers or forbidden nature though. That might come later I suppose.

- Mat and the Eelfinn was pretty cool. I couldn't decide whether the make-up was tacky or great. Maybe both. 😅 I'm glad we got the doorway and the fox-head medallion, even if it was moved to Tanchico.

- Are... Are Min and Mat a thing...? I feel like the show-runners are determined not to give Rand any of his canonical girlfriends in this show. There's practically zero hints of it with Aviendha, and I'm not even sure if Elayne and Rand have been in a room together more than once or twice.

- I laughed out loud when Nynaeve turned into Moses.

- We didn't get her showdown with Moghedien though! I was really excited for that one!

- Lan is still too emotional.

- The whole ending sequence just kind of confused me. I'm not quite sure what was happening. Why was Moiraine just channeling randomly out in the desert? Was she trying to summon Lanfear to keep her away from Rand? Or was it a suicide mission? And surely with that amount of power, Lanfear would have immediately recognized the super glass ball and grabbed it for herself. In fact, this fight made Lanfear look very weak. She should have been able to snap her fingers and cut both of them into ribbons.

- Ahhhh, Moiraine is this week's impalement with zero consequences. Gotta have one in every episode! (I'm sure in the Two Rivers somewhere, Alanna stood on a pine needle and needed Mat's sisters to heal her...)

- I'm kind of in shock about Suian. There was still so much of her story to tell! The escape! The healing! The relationship with Bryne... Ahhhh, that's it, isn't it? They didn't want her to have any romantic relationships except with Moiraine, so off with her head. Very disappointing. I wanted to see her story continue to play out. (Then again, maybe beheading can be healed in this world? I wouldn't be surprised...)

- I feel like Rand's big reveal moment to the Aiel didn't hit as hard as I was expecting it to. Perhaps it's just one of those things that works a lot better in the written word. It doesn't help that Couladin has only been in one or two scenes, so non-book-readers would probably have no idea who he even is at this point.

- Overall, a good episode that hit a few big notes. Still some baffling decisions to drastically change the text for... I dunno, reasons? Three major players have been killed off this season, and yet made-up characters like Maksim continue to get extra running time.

- I have no idea where they might go from here. I assume next season will be leading up to the taking of the Stone. Maybe we'll see Moiraine, Lanfear and the door in Tear? Would it be expecting too much to imagine Season 4 might get us to Dumai's Wells?

[Turin Turambar]

I guess this is official now. 

 

Wow!!! I loved so much of this episode. The only thing I was somewhat dissatisfied with was Rand meeting the Aiel. The confrontation with Couladin was underwhelming. 

 

Highlights for me were in no special order...

 

Mat and the Finns. I had to look at least twice but I think the rope was attached to a pole weapon. Hoping it wasn't just me hoping to see it. 

 

Nyn going Moses in the river. I thought it might be Liandrin that caused it.

 

Elayne being ruthless defending Thom. The visual of the balefire effect was really cool.

 

Melinda, breaking her oath and the effect. Wild. 

 

RIP Suian. She went out with a roar. Like a lionfish. Interesting notes about the Oaths and beliefs. They thought nothing of Alviarin killing with the power because they wrongly thought Suian a darkfriend.

 

It can't end here. I would be so gutted, kinda like Moiraine. 

[Mirefox]

Moiraine shielding Sammael is 100% what is wrong with the garbage-tier writing on this show.  In Season 1, we had something like 8 Aes Sedai keeping a constant shield on Logain, Moiraine included.  Skip two seasons forward and Moiraine just casually drops that, by the way, she can now tie off shields and subdue a Forsaken.  Not earned, not explained, just written that way because that’s how the writers want it.  

[king of nowhere]

after being very happy with all the season, here i am... less happy.

actually, in keeping with the other seasons, the ending is the weakest part. this is still better than the endings of the previous seasons, so S3 is still a step up compared to the other two. and there were good things.

 

i am very happy with mat. i knew the show had very little time for him, so i thought they'd either skip the portals anyway, or they would make a rushed, bad job of it. while the whole episode felt rushed, the portal was great. in a limited time, they managed to convey all the relevant stuff. including the whole hanging.

they still didn't give him the luck, yet.

on the other hand, i was deeply disappointed by liandrin and nynaeve. really? throw her in the water and leave her? pierce holes in the skull of the extras, but throw around the main characters and leave them? this was classic bond villain stuff.

plus, we saw very little of balefire. and it was really poorly aimed when used against the main characters. we never see what happens with thom merrilin (again; they could make it his whole thing, every season ending with him left to uncertain fate). all in all, the whole tanchico part felt rushed.

 

alcair dal was mismanaged. in the books, rand revealed what he saw in rhuidean, couladin also revealed what he thought he should have seen, and the wise ones and clan chiefs confirm that rand is the real car'a'carn. makes perfect sense.

here, rand says what he saw. couladin makes vague promises. then rand makes rain. then the aiel kneel. so all you needed to do was channel some rain to be acclaimed?

on the other hand, good that they brought down those army numbers to more realistic levels. one hundred thousand aiel warriors is already a lot.

 

the worst part was moiraine. with such a powerful sa'angreal, she should have been able to easily overpower lanfear. it never felt like she was actually using such a strong weapon. had they shown lanfear cutting her weaves while remarking that it doesn't matter how strong moiraine is if she can't land a hit would have made the fight more believable.

but hey, good thing we're told moiraine has to die. she may actually die of being impaled through the torso, the first instance in the whole tv show.

 

the stuff in the tower was great. siuan sanche's last speech was moving. i was expecting she'd be killed for real in this retelling.

Edited April 17 by king of nowhere

[Turin Turambar]

  On 4/17/2025 at 2:20 PM, Mirefox said:

Moiraine shielding Sammael is 100% what is wrong with the garbage-tier writing on this show.  In Season 1, we had something like 8 Aes Sedai keeping a constant shield on Logain, Moiraine included.  Skip two seasons forward and Moiraine just casually drops that, by the way, she can now tie off shields and subdue a Forsaken.  Not earned, not explained, just written that way because that’s how the writers want it.  

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In season 1 it was 3 Aes Aedai holding Logain. It took 8 to gentle him.

I think it's a pretty short leap to go from Sammy was knocked out by Rand. Then, Moiraine with help from the magic rock was able to build a strong shield on him. You want them to say that? How to put it in? You want it filmed? How long would it take? He was shielded, does it matter the details? Moggy is wild.

[Skipp]

  On 4/17/2025 at 2:28 PM, Turin Turambar said:

In season 1 it was 3 Aes Aedai holding Logain. It took 8 to gentle him.

I think it's a pretty short leap to go from Sammy was knocked out by Rand. Then, Moiraine with help from the magic rock was able to build a strong shield on him. You want them to say that? How to put it in? You want it filmed? How long would it take? He was shielded, does it matter the details? Moggy is wild.

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2 Aes Sedai were holding Logain at a time, only 3(plus Moiraine) were strong enough to keep up the shield.

 

But yeah, it is not as if Moiraine had access to the most powerful Saidar Sa'angreal to help her shield Sammael.  Or other channelers to link with.  It also seems she has been toying with the ability to tie off shields since she learned about it.

[king of nowhere]

  On 4/17/2025 at 2:13 PM, Irvyne said:

 Three major players have been killed off this season, and yet made-up characters like Maksim continue to get extra running time.

 

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the reasons for this is simply that they cut some plots for timing reasons.

for example, the whole plot with siuan surviving the stilling, escaping, rejoining the salidar aes sedai and everything, it was a lot of story to tell, but the bigger story doesn't need it. so, siuan's plot is excised, and the character is disposed of as unnecessary.

same with loial. as they must cut a lot of secondary plots to fit the show in the allotted time, so a lot of secondary characters must similarly be cut. literally, in siuan's case.

meanwhile, other characters are taking some of those plots up. maksim keeps living because, clearly, they still have something to do with him.

[Turin Turambar]

  On 4/17/2025 at 2:25 PM, king of nowhere said:

after being very happy with all the season, here i am... less happy.

actually, in keeping with the other seasons, the ending is the weakest part. this is still better than the endings of the previous seasons, so S3 is still a step up compared to the other two. and there were good things.

 

i am very happy with mat. i knew the show had very little time for him, so i thought they'd either skip the portals anyway, or they would make a rushed, bad job of it. while the whole episode felt rushed, the portal was great. in a limited time, they managed to convey all the relevant stuff. including the whole hanging.

they still didn't give him the luck, yet.

on the other hand, i was deeply disappointed by liandrin and nynaeve. really? throw her in the water and leave her? pierce holes in the skull of the extras, but throw around the main characters and leave them? this was classic bond villain stuff.

plus, we saw very little of balefire. and it was really poorly aimed when used against the main characters. we never see what happens with thom merrilin (again; they could make it his whole thing, every season ending with him left to uncertain fate). all in all, the whole tanchico part felt rushed.

 

alcair dal was mismanaged. in the books, rand revealed what he saw in rhuidean, couladin also revealed what he thought he should have seen, and the wise ones and clan chiefs confirm that rand is the real car'a'carn. makes perfect sense.

here, rand says what he saw. couladin makes vague promises. then rand makes rain. then the aiel kneel. so all you needed to do was channel some rain to be acclaimed?

on the other hand, good that they brought down those army numbers to more realistic levels. one hundred thousand aiel warriors is already a lot.

 

the worst part was moiraine. with such a powerful sa'angreal, she should have been able to easily overpower lanfear. it never felt like she was actually using such a strong weapon. had they shown lanfear cutting her weaves while remarking that it doesn't matter how strong moiraine is if she can't land a hit would have made the fight more believable.

but hey, good thing we're told moiraine has to die. she may actually die of being impaled through the torso, the first instance in the whole tv show.

 

the stuff in the tower was great. siuan sanche's last speech was moving. i was expecting she'd be killed for real in this retelling.

Expand  

I thought the same about Liandrin,  actually I was saying the Austin Powers line, just assuming it all goes to plan. 

 

I didn't think Thom's fate was in doubt after Elayne wiped Jeanie??.

 

I thought it was that Moiraine was using Saidar and Lanfear was using the true power which is a bit different if I recall correctly. I did find it odd that Lanfear didn't just use one of the killing weaves and bothered to make a rope basically to choke her out.

[king of nowhere]

  On 4/17/2025 at 2:35 PM, Turin Turambar said:

I thought it was that Moiraine was using Saidar and Lanfear was using the true power which is a bit different if I recall correctly.

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yes, my idea too.

still, they didn't feel like they were fighting with the kind of power that could level cities. instead of melting the whole area, they were tossing each other around. softly enough for it to be survivable

[Ithillian Turambar]

She strangled Moiraine because she's a jealous rage monster and she wanted to make it personal 

 

Also glad, in a weird way, that they killed Siuan because at least we won't have to deal with the ugh plt of her getting with some dude later on.

 

Also yeah Turin was all, but where is Mat's stick. And he explained it was holding the rope up in the tree in the books. And when we watched it again you can definitely see the rope is tied to a long object stuck in the door.

 

So happy Nyn beat her block.

 

 

also i agree that the black oily stuff is the true power... kind of tracks with the Taint in Saidin too

 

 

Edited April 17 by Ithillian Turambar

[Mirefox]

- Why is Lanfear’s TAR weaving black?  Did Sony just need to save money and use the effects from the Venom movies?

 

- Wow, Egwene sure learned how to master TAR and beat a Forsaken pretty quickly, huh?

 

-  Did Thom really have a free shot at the black sister and yell “Hey” before he through the knife?  Good grief.

 

- The Finn was fine, I guess.  Maybe looked a little cartoony but I don’t j own what else they could have done.  Weird creatures in the book, weird here, too.

 

-Liandrin points her fingers and people die.  I think she killed 6 of the panarch’s guards with one quick weave.  But then her plan with Nyn is to wrap her in chains and throw her in the water?  Dr. Evil-level stupidity, there.  But hey, the writers needed Nyn in the water, so stupid ideas know no bounds.

[Vosha]

  On 4/17/2025 at 2:51 PM, Ithillian Turambar said:

also i agree that the black oily stuff is the true power... kind of tracks with the Taint in Saidin too

 

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I'm 99% sure they did that closeup of her eyes to show us that she had the saa in them. 

 

Also, I don't know if they were imagining things, but someone on FB mentioned seeing some of the dark figures (the ones that Logain saw) loitering around Rand.  Were eyes deceiving or did anyone else see that?

 

[Mirefox]

The writing here is so damn stupid all for the sake of creating the scenes that the writers want.  Lanfear wanted to kill Moiraine, so when she catches her unaware and vulnerable she…knocks her over with air then tries to strangle her?!?

[Mirefox]

I felt like I was watching a Cliff. It’s version of the show.  They tried to cram way too much in here and combined events happening offscreen with exposition, and really rushed through some major stuff.  The pacing was not good.

[Mirefox]

  On 4/17/2025 at 2:13 PM, Irvyne said:

Well, here we are.

I have many thoughts. 😅

First of all, easily the best season finale yet, but we all know that is a VERY low bar to clear...

 

- Elaida went through the doorway and spoke to the Aelfinn? That didn't happen in the books, did it? Or did I just not remember that rather important plot point? At any rate, it adds a bit of extra drama to her take-over, so I didn't mind it.

 

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They had to have someone use the doorway so they could have some exposition to explain a little of what we were going to see later in the episode.  Like I’ve mentioned elsewhere, subtlety is not a strength of this show.  There was zero other point to that cold open.

[Pandemonium]

pretty great episode.  My only complaint is that they didn’t have enough time to do everything properly.  Nynaeve’s block felt scene especially rushed.  The white tower coup also felt rushed

 

Matt,s ashrandei was also briefly showed holding up his rope.  I wish the show had showed it a bit more, because now they will have to explain where it came from later.

 

It appears that Moiraine is going to be around for a while. The show is probably afraid to kill off their biggest star so soon..  I’m now thinking that Moiraine is going to take the role of Cadsaune.  There will be no Cadsaune in this show if it gets renewed.

 

it will be amazing if it is Red Eagle that is the entity holding up the show from getting renewed. 

 

 

 

[Elglin]

Well, it was a marked improvement over the previous seasons' finales. Which isn't too high a bar to clear.

 

The Wheel of Time saga was Rand's story. It was also a story of loads of other characters, but if there was a main hero, it was Rand. It's the third season (although less guilty than the first two at that) that the show tries to make Rand a supporting character in his own story - much like what Netflix's Witcher did to Geralt.

In TSR, Rand overpowers, captures and binds a Forsaken to his will. Granted, the weakest of them, and with Lanfear's help, but there you go. Here, instead of "I understand master Natael, but don't approve", we have Moiraine capturing Sammael and having this idea for him to train Rand all by herself.

No matter how hard Mr. Judkins tries to make fetch happen, it's not going to happen. Rosamund Pike is a fine actress, Moiraine is a fine character, but shoehorning her into where the character does not belong does not improve the show, it degrades it.

Ditto for Egwene, who can do things because she just can. The Egwene who overpowered Mesaana in TAR in the later books was the Egwene of multiple months of training, and practice, and experience, and, and, and. Apparently, she now can dispose of Lanfear in TAR because she can, and to the devil with the argument that at this point in the story the only person with more skill and power in TAR than Lanfear is maybe Moghedien.

 

And that's my biggest problem with the show. I did and do cut it a lot of slack in rearranging stuff or merging characters or cutting secondary plotlines (Nynaeve's block gone three books early? - Fine, let's see how it works out. Siuan killed off? - Well, if the show cuts Gareth Bryne which is may, she is expendable, etc. etc.), although the ripple effects of people being not in the correct place and not having done the correct thing start to mount. But seeing things that Rand did in the books, which, in the books, were pretty formative for him, constantly taken from him and assigned to Egwene/Moiraine is something I can't fathom. At this rate, the next season's finale could be Moiraine, Egwene and Alanna (and Maxim!) traveling to Shayol Ghul and disposing of the Dark One just because they suddenly can.

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/17/2025 at 2:18 PM, Turin Turambar said:

Mat and the Finns. I had to look at least twice but I think the rope was attached to a pole weapon. Hoping it wasn't just me hoping to see it.

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It definitely was attached to a weapon.

[Mirefox]

Moiraine to Lan: “Today is possibly the day I die.”

 

Lan:  Disappears to meditate so far away from anyone that nobody notices a possible assassination attempt and then some death-via-broken oath all while his Aes Sedai is alone in a tent with the man who she says might kill her.

 

Also Lan: Go ahead and channel, Moiraine, while I guard you from half a mile away so I can get to you just in time after I see a Forsaken appear in this featureless desert and slowly strangle you while I do my best to finally get in a position to protect you.

[EmreY]

Not my favourite episode of the series (that remains Ep 6) but it was as well as could be managed within the time available.  Highlights for me, in no particular order:

 

I liked Siuan's death, it felt more appropriate than the one in the books.

 

Matt and his needs. 🙂

 

The aftereffects of balefire.  (However, I must ask: can balefire be used to erase the effects of previous uses of balefire?)

 

Above all, Lanfear going really weird after being rebuffed in Rand's dream.

 

I wasn't all that enthused by the ending, but I remember feeling that the book episode was also not my favourite; indeed, I find all of Rand's big power moments in the books a bit of a let-down apart from his first inadvertent channelling and of course - major spoilers so avoid unless you've read the books -

  Reveal hidden contents

veins of gold and after, with all the apple and peach blossoms.

So the cutting back and forth was fine.

 

I regret to say that after Rhuarc made his proclamation, my mind flipped to an alternative scene where a certain Aiel girl to come back from the dead and squeaked: For he is the Kwisatz'aracarn!  (Sorry.  I had a hard time not laughing then when watching that film and Rhuarc brought back too many silly impressions.)

 

Off on a bit of a tangent, many years ago I was flying over the Mediterranean on a crystal clear day when we flew just south of Stromboli.  There was a large cone of smoke coming out - I assume it must also have been an absolutely still day - not a cloud, not an eruption, just an inverted cone with the apex down at the mouth of the volcano.  (A bit like this, except it was dark smoke: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/scientists-are-beginning-to-unravel-the-secrets-of-icelands-recent-eruptions-180983818/ .) And it looked so much like the long distance pictures of Rand channelling at the end.  A volcano, then, in my head canon and not a tornado.

 

PS: I hope this episode will put paid to any lingering doubts that the show is not showing Rand's full power.  The amount of channelling in those final scenes (aided by some tai chi) is immense, especially when compared with the meagre amounts being called by Moiraine or Lanfear.

 

 

Edited April 17 by EmreY

[EmreY]

  On 4/17/2025 at 2:13 PM, Irvyne said:

I have no idea where they might go from here. I assume next season will be leading up to the taking of the Stone. Maybe we'll see Moiraine, Lanfear and the door in Tear? Would it be expecting too much to imagine Season 4 might get us to Dumai's Wells?

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There are so many new story lines to be introduced that I fear you may be right.

 

Personally, I'd prefer Tear right at the start, and Dumai's Wells at the end.

[Jaysen Gore]

  On 4/17/2025 at 5:35 PM, EmreY said:

 

There are so many new story lines to be introduced that I fear you may be right.

 

Personally, I'd prefer Tear right at the start, and Dumai's Wells at the end.

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This can't happen, because you need to introduce the Black Tower before this. Dumai's wells is about what an army of channelers can do. So I expect the Wells to be the end of Season 5 (if it ever happens)

[EmreY]

  On 4/17/2025 at 5:45 PM, Jaysen Gore said:

This can't happen, because you need to introduce the Black Tower before this. Dumai's wells is about what an army of channelers can do. So I expect the Wells to be the end of Season 5 (if it ever happens)

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In my script for Season 4, currently being hotly negotiated with Amazon🤪, Rand uses you-know-what at Tear to call the Black Tower to him.

Edited April 17 by EmreY