S3E5 - Tel’aran’rhiod

[Jaysen Gore]

  On 3/29/2025 at 4:56 PM, DreadLord31 said:

It seems like we’ve massively diverged from my actual point … which was that Jordan wasn’t especially good at writing romance & that was an area the show could improve (debate if the changes they’ve made are actually improvements)… but is anyone arguing that Jordan was a master of romance? 😂 

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This does raise an interesting point - given the relatively recent explosion of Romantasy (Sara J. Maas, Rebecca Yarros, et al.) do you think they're playing it up for that crowd? Or is this just the "adulting it up" for streaming audiences because sex sells?

[DaddyFinn]

Remember S2E5? Rand and Moiraine came up with a plan that Rand pretends to love Lanfear so they can get information and she won't kill them.

[KakitaOCU]

  On 3/30/2025 at 4:54 AM, Jaysen Gore said:

This does raise an interesting point - given the relatively recent explosion of Romantasy (Sara J. Maas, Rebecca Yarros, et al.) do you think they're playing it up for that crowd? Or is this just the "adulting it up" for streaming audiences because sex sells?

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Probably a bit of both.

But one thing Jordan did not handle well was Romances.  They come out of nowhere, no real build up, and Rand's three literally happen by Deus Ex...

Writing the more intimate moments isn't a requirement to fix that, I feel L. E. Modesitt Jr. writes romance fairly well with nothing more than a fade to black, but it's harder to do it that way.

[wotfan4472]

  On 3/28/2025 at 12:58 PM, Turin Turambar said:

Uh, The Hobbit? 

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That was due to WB not giving Peter the time to do the story after Guillermo left the film, and after WB deciding to split the thing into three.

 

We are lucky he had the balls to come up with the White Council fight at Dul Guldur, which took place in the books the same year of The Battle Of Five Armies, and chose to use Gandalf's story absence for a large part of the story for all of that from the Ringwraith graves to that moment.

 

Even his report to the White Council on that issue was after the Hobbit book was done, and Bilbo was back in the Shire in the source material.

 

For me, Rafe gets plenty of slack from me, considering he has far too much source material to explore, and source materail he is huge fan of. Which, after other shows I have seen over the last 10 years, is a breath of fresh air.

Edited Sunday at 10:53 AM by wotfan4472

[king of nowhere]

  On 3/30/2025 at 5:19 AM, DaddyFinn said:

Remember S2E5? Rand and Moiraine came up with a plan that Rand pretends to love Lanfear so they can get information and she won't kill them.

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yes, but the trailer of egwene asking rand "do you love her", plus the fact that the two of them have to break up, and rafe wouldn't want his precious egwene to do anything wrong like dumping a boyfriend who is only pretending to love a foresaken so that she will be their allies, point to rand being genuine.

[Ralph]

Or Rand could pretend to love her to protect Egwene

[Gary Again]

  On 3/30/2025 at 5:19 AM, DaddyFinn said:

Remember S2E5? Rand and Moiraine came up with a plan that Rand pretends to love Lanfear so they can get information and she won't kill them.

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Man I hope they follow through on this, I think they have done a great job showing how Moiraine doesn't need power to stand up to Foresaken or be effective and then how manipulative and strategic she can be, it would be really cool for her to use the game of houses to get over on Lanfear and it would land harder because of how much Lanfear craves power to get beat by someone less powerful. Also I'd just add that I dig the Lanfrear/Moiraine dynamic in the shows when Moiraine asks if Lanfear really thinks she would hurt the kids to get them to do what they need and Lanfear said that's the only thing I like about you was just chefs kiss such a great line.

 

I also think they are doing a great job with Rand/Moirane distrust in that scene I could understand both of their points of view and they both seemed reasonable and they are basically at 180 degrees to each other. I also liked how they just calmly had a conversation but there was no good common ground for agreement. This just struck me as a great and realistic way to cover this distrust and neither one of them is bad or wrong/right they are just coming at this situation from two different points of view and they fundamentally aren't able to come at it differently. 

 

 

Edited Sunday at 03:09 PM by Gary Again

[Scarloc99]

  On 3/29/2025 at 4:25 PM, Elder_Haman said:

I have long argued that this show would be best served by making the audience believe that Rand turning to the Dark is a real possibility. To that end, an emotional connection to Lanfear keeps the tension ratcheting up until the very end. So to that end, I think it is a very smart choice. 
 

It also gives a second compelling reason to keep the Tower of Ghenji in. The audience will tire of the Rand/Lanfear dynamic. If you ice her for a season and change, then bring her back right as things are getting hairy for Rand…

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If we are getting the red door in tear then that may be where Moraine and Lanfer fight and go through the door? 

[Fiona_12]

  On 3/30/2025 at 4:54 AM, Jaysen Gore said:

This does raise an interesting point - given the relatively recent explosion of Romantasy (Sara J. Maas, Rebecca Yarros, et al.) do you think they're playing it up for that crowd? Or is this just the "adulting it up" for streaming audiences because sex sells?

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I think it's both. I don't watch a lot of TV/movies, but my husband does, and it's rare to not have at least one sex scene. When romance serves the story, I'm fine with it. Otherwise, I couldn't care less. Romantic relationships are a part of life, though, so it would be unrealistic to never have them in a story.

 

As to whether the show has improved on the romance, mostly I'd have to say no. Nyaneave and Lan are good.

[Fiona_12]

  On 3/29/2025 at 3:27 PM, Agitel said:

I'm not a fan of the Rand - Egwene - Lanfear triangle, though, or Rand actually being unfaithful. Rand had dreams in the book which he felt terrible about, but he wasn't lucid or in control during them. I just wish Egwene and Rand had broken up before this and Rand wasn't suddenly a cheater. 

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He's not in control of his dreams in the show. Lanfear keeps entering them. So he's not technically cheating, although it could be argued that the fact he doesn't just tell her to go away, and that he says he sees the woman she used to be implies those are his true feelings. I've had dreams that made me think "where did that come from?", but I've never dreamed I had sex with someone I hate IRL. I don't like this being the reason Rand and Egwene break up, instead of the way it happens in the book.

[Agitel]

No, my read is he's lucid during these dreams. He's discussing everything and history and the current state of things with way too much awareness. 

[Fiona_12]

  On 3/29/2025 at 5:28 AM, SinisterDeath said:

Really? Did you not notice his conversation with Egwene in S3E1 where they're holding parallel discussions? And then his euphoric state trying to let go of the one Power? Or in the follow up episode where he talks to Moiraine about what the taint on Saidin is like? He's a little bit touched already at this point, and Lanfear isn't helping things.

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I don't think these are examples of the madness beginning to manifest. I think these scenes were demonstrating how addictive the OP is, even with the taint. 

[Fiona_12]

  On 3/27/2025 at 9:16 AM, Irvyne said:

Aw man.

I should have known it couldn't last.

That was... not good.

After last week's amazing episode, this feels like we've reverted back to Season 1 or 2.

Somehow, they made entering Tel'aran'rhiod, one of the most exciting and intriguing concepts in the series, seem really boring! Not to mention that it seems really unclear how this version of T'A'R even works. It doesn't seem consistent with the original version, and Egwene just somehow masters dream-jumping in a day?

 

I know they've made it very clear that defined races just aren't a thing in this version of the world, but it just doesn't ring true. If Lan, who in this version is Asian, is the king of Malkier, and he meets someone else from his ancient heritage, why is she blonde?

And the sea folk, who in the books were very dark skinned, here are just a mixture? I think I saw a blonde guy on the boat.

 

Accents are also a weird one. Mat's cockney-ish accent certainly fits the character, but are we to believe he grew up in the same society as Rand, Perrin and Egwene, who all have different accents? Even Mat's mother has a completely different accent to him. Just little details that stand out to me and make the show seem fake.

 

Another thing that struck me about this episode was that the direction and continuity seemed off in a number of different scenes. A character would be looking in one direction, then the shot would cut, and their head would be in a different position, causing a jarring jump cut.

Overall, a disappointment after the highs of last week, and definitely the weakest episode this season. 😞

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I didn't think it would last because they've let us down in the past. No matter how good an episode is, I always go into the next one with cautious optimism. But I didn't dislike this episode. 

 

TV shows/movies in general are bad about giving you a sense of the passage of time. It's a huge pet piece of mine. All Egwene had to say to Moraine was "I've only been studying with the Wise Ones for X amount of time". One line, 5-10 seconds.

 

If you know they've made it clear that distinct races aren't a thing in the show, why are you surprised to see a non-Asian blonde from Malkier, or Sea Folk that are not all very dark skinned? 

 

I agree with you about the accents, though. In S1, Thom told Mat there are 2 ways to tell where someone is from, clothing styles and accents, but accents are all over the place. Perhaps with the EF kids, they are too young to have the experience to speak with an accent that is not native to them, but what about everyone else? I thought the actress who played Moiraine's sister was great, but she and Moraine sound nothing alike. If they weren't going to strive for consistent accents based on locations, they shouldn't have had Thom say that to Mat.

 

On the subject of Mat though, I love Donal Finn! 

 

I didn't notice the continuity errors you mentioned. Fortunately, those aren't the things I focus on, but there have been plenty of other continuity errors. For instance, when Moiraine told Egwene the exact wording of the 3 Oaths, she omitted darkfriends (and shadow spawn). Now I'm this episode we see Elaida kill a Black Ajah sister in cold blood.

[Fiona_12]

  On 3/27/2025 at 10:33 PM, Jaysen Gore said:

I thought it was a good, not great episode; 

- I was surprised at what happened to Natti, and disappointed that the horror of that moment was downplayed

- Elaida and Siuan's interactions were great

- Elayne is so much more likeable in the show than in the books; stunned to see the Sea Folk, and thought the entire esthetic was great.

- Has Egwene failed at anything on the series yet? 

 

 Man, I hate how bad TV is at conveying time's passage. 

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I agree, good, not great. But there was a lot of set up. 

 

The horror of Natti's burned face was enough for me! On my rewatch I closed my eyes, opened them, and what? is not over yet? That was a real gut punch. Although I should have seen it coming after what we saw in S1E2. And Valda, man he gives me the creeps! 

 

Elaida and Siuan were great. Venim just dripped from Elaida when she was talking to Siuan. I wanted to throw something at the TV. She's gonna be my Cersei for WoT. Did you notice Siuan called her sister instead of daughter after she healed her?

 

I love Elayne in the books, and I really love her in the show. The dynamics between her, Mat, and Nyaneave are great. And between Mat and Min. 

 

I was surprised to see the Sea Folk too. They made very good use of the conversation between the Sail Mistress and Nyaneave. 

 

Of course Egwene hasn't failed at anything. I'll be surprised if the Wise Ones even learn that Egwene disobeyed them.

 

TV and movies are terrible at establishing the passage of time, but I think we are supposed to think a couple of years have gone by, because one of Mat's sisters said she could barely remember Perrin. Or she could have just be lying. Who knows with these writers.

 

 

 

 

[Fiona_12]

  On 3/28/2025 at 10:11 AM, A Memory Of Why said:

 

Dude! 

 

There's nothing wrong with having issues or not liking the show, but once again your not acknowledging or responding to someone's point.

 

Quite frankly you're coming across as a bit of a dick.

 

Reread what @DaddyFinn was responding to and his comment and explain how your response is valid in that context please.

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Actually, DaddyFinn asked which changes specifically, and AMOW listed legitimate instances from the episode that were not from the books. There's nothing wrong with their reply. I don't agree that they're all bad just because they're not taken straight from the books. The Tower scenes with Siuan and Elaida were excellent. Alanna's reason for being in the TR is half book accurate.

 

Perhaps the other changes will lead to substantial and meaningful plot points. There have been changes previously that have not, while others I had to reevaluate after watching this season. Only time will tell. 

[Fiona_12]

  On 3/28/2025 at 3:24 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

The individuals who run this very website are not fools just because they hold a viewpoint that is different from yours.

 

Nor are the likes of  Rob (Malkier Talks), Mat Hatch (The Innkeeper from The Dusty Wheel), Jon from WoT Up, KritterXD, Winespring Cafe, Ta'varen Tavern from X/TikTok/The Wheel & Chill Show, Lezbi Nerdy, Kevin Angus, Rebecca from Reading the Pattern, Lauren from Unraveling the Pattern, Jess from The Amrylin's Study, Dani and Brett from The Wheel Weaves Podcast, and Rhuarc and Saimma (the book fan hosts of the Watch Party Wheel of Time Podcast).

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Do you think, in today's political and social climate, that they would admit it if they disagreed? The fact that they are all fine with the changes does not equate to Rafe's personal interpretation being accurate based on what actually happens in the books.  This is evidenced by his intentional misrepresentation of the first sister ceremony and the the bond it creates.

[Fiona_12]

  On 3/28/2025 at 8:21 PM, SinisterDeath said:

One criticism the Fanbase of the Show has long ignored is the Colorism bias.

E.g. Casting wise, they chose to cast Ishy (Fares Fares), who is a Lebanese/Syrian actor as the Bad Guy. They chose to Cast black actors to play Padan Fain and Valda.

In season 3, they didn't have to have Leane (Asian Woman), brutally beat a Black Woman to death with her Staff in the Hall of the sitters..

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I can't agree with this. Siuan is played by a black actress, Nyaneave, Egwene, and Perrin are all brown skinned. Ihvon was black (and we know why he was killed off instead of Maksim). What difference does it make that Ishamael is Lebanese? All of the other Forsaken so far are white.

[Mailman]

  On 3/30/2025 at 10:15 PM, Fiona_12 said:

TV shows/movies in general are bad about giving you a sense of the passage of time. It's a huge pet piece of mine. All Egwene had to say to Moraine was "I've only been studying with the Wise Ones for X amount of time". One line, 5-10 seconds.

 

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I think someone said that the extra material has the timeline from the start of the series is just over 2 years has passed. I don't feel that the show has in any way made it feel like this amount of time has passed.

 

  On 3/30/2025 at 11:31 PM, Fiona_12 said:

Actually, DaddyFinn asked which changes specifically, and AMOW listed legitimate instances from the episode that were not from the books. There's nothing wrong with their reply. I don't agree that they're all bad just because they're not taken straight from the books. The Tower scenes with Siuan and Elaida were excellent. Alanna's reason for being in the TR is half book accurate.

 

Perhaps the other changes will lead to substantial and meaningful plot points. There have been changes previously that have not, while others I had to reevaluate after watching this season. Only time will tell. 

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AMOW was actually rudely responding to one of my posts quoting Daddyfinn.

[Fiona_12]

  On 3/29/2025 at 5:05 AM, Irvyne said:

Moiraine and Siuan? "Romantic relationship" is a stretch. It's suggested they may have played around a bit when they were studying in the tower together. It's like one paragraph. Both characters have romantic relationships with men in the main story.

 

As for Aviendha and Elayne, could you provide a quote to back up that claim of "heavily implied" romance? Admittedly, I'm only in the middle of Book 7 in my third read-through, but I was NEVER given any impression that their relationship was any more than good friends / makeshift sisters. Having them be lesbian lovers in the show rings entirely untrue to the text, and just comes across as wild hand-waving, "Look at us! We're a modern, progressive show ticking all the boxes!"

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Moiraine and Siuan at least had a history of being pillow friends although they left that behind when raised to Aes Sedai. It doesn't do anything to move the story forward, but it doesn't detract either.

 

Elayne and Aviendha? Nada. Someone once tried to tell me that they were gay because they took baths at the same time (but in different tubs). The Sea Folk were insulted that they were not invited to bathe with Elayne, indicating it was some sort of social ritual among them. So does that mean all Sea Folk women were gay? Aside from the lack of evidence, there is the fact that they are magically born again as sisters. Then it becomes akin to invest which I'm pretty sure even in today's woke environment is still frowned upon.

[Fiona_12]

  On 3/31/2025 at 12:39 AM, Mailman said:

I think someone said that the extra material has the timeline from the start of the series is just over 2 years has passed. I don't feel that the show has in any way made it feel like this amount of time has passed.

 

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Yes, the events in the books occur in just over 2 years. The show is doing a particularly bad job at demonstrating the passage of time. 

  On 3/31/2025 at 12:39 AM, Mailman said:

AMOW was actually rudely responding to one of my posts quoting Daddyfinn.

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Oops. Obviously I am making my way through the comments for Ep5. It's hard to keep track!

[Mailman]

  On 3/31/2025 at 1:01 AM, Fiona_12 said:

Moiraine and Siuan at least had a history of being pillow friends although they left that behind when raised to Aes Sedai. It doesn't do anything to move the story forward, but it doesn't detract either.

 

Elayne and Aviendha? Nada. Someone once tried to tell me that they were gay because they took baths at the same time (but in different tubs). The Sea Folk were insulted that they were not invited to bathe with Elayne, indicating it was some sort of social ritual among them. So does that mean all Sea Folk women were gay? Aside from the lack of evidence, there is the fact that they are magically born again as sisters. Then it becomes akin to invest which I'm pretty sure even in today's woke environment is still frowned upon.

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Everyone in Shienar bathed together in the same baths and the Aiel sweat tents, which are the same as baths, everyone also washed together.

[Pandemonium]

Not sure if anyone in this thread mentioned this yet, but i rewatched e5 again and was just noticed that the white sister was Alviarin.  Between Gitara, Verin, Sheriam, and Alviarin still being at the tower there were definitely way more than the 4 black ajah hearts that Liandrin knew about.   Of course, we don't know who is black ajah yet on this show.  

 

Also on Aes Sedai talk, almost all the Ajahs have been explained now except the Grey Ajah.  Alviarin was first main white that we saw (I think) I don't think we have had much interaction with the Greys yet.   They don't get a lot of love in the books either, but I predict we will have a Grey encounter sooner or later.

 

 

[A Memory Of Why]

  On 3/28/2025 at 11:53 AM, Mailman said:

It's a forum not a direct message it was not meant for him to solely respond too just as you choose to respond to a comment that I did not direct at you.

 

I apologize if you jumped to the conclusion that I was avoiding extrapolating on the examples I listed as some argumentative ploy. I simply thought that it was obvious that I thought they were not required or good changes for the adaption.

 

How is it a strawman argument, I did not set up a separate thing to argue about I listed specific examples of changes within the show compared to the books and then when challenged by you I happily listed the issues with the changes.

 

It's very hard to believe that you don't think calling me a dick is an insult or then going on to label me as biased and obstinant as doubling down on this. 

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Alright..

 

@DaddyFinn asked a user a question and followed it up with a statement, this is a valid way of presenting an argument.

 

Where the question and statement are part of said argument.

 

You responded to the question alone, as if it was ludicrous and completely ignoring the argument presented.

 

This annoyed me and I find it to be an underhanded and manipulative form of presenting an argument.. hence why I suggested its bordering on a strawmans argument as you extrapolated on the question and not the point of the users argument.

 

I've noticed you do this in our own arguments and others.

 

It's really not cool dude.

 

I apologize for calling you a dick, it was a roundabout way to say it but nonetheless.. you're right. There is a better way to go about it and I'll try better in the future.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Still.. it's a dick move though don't you think?

 

I do stand by calling you biased and obstinant though.

 

Funnily enough I do agree with some of your points, I just don't want to encourage you dude.

 

Please be mindful as personalities like yours may prevent fans of the books / show from interacting with us and having meaningful conversations / discussions.

 

Be cool dude!

Edited Monday at 08:01 AM by A Memory Of Why

[Mailman]

  On 3/31/2025 at 7:56 AM, A Memory Of Why said:

 

Alright..

 

@DaddyFinn asked a user a question and followed it up with a statement, this is a valid way of presenting an argument.

 

Where the question and statement are part of said argument.

 

You responded to the question alone, as if it was ludicrous and completely ignoring the argument presented.

 

This annoyed me and I find it to be an underhanded and manipulative form of presenting an argument.. hence why I suggested its bordering on a strawmans argument as you extrapolated on the question and not the point of the users argument.

 

I've noticed you do this in our own arguments and others.

 

It's really not cool dude.

 

I apologize for calling you a dick, it was a roundabout way to say it but nonetheless.. you're right. There is a better way to go about it and I'll try better in the future.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Still.. it's a dick move though don't you think?

 

I do stand by calling you biased and obstinant though.

 

Funnily enough I do agree with some of your points, I just don't want to encourage you dude.

 

Please be mindful as personalities like yours may prevent fans of the books / show from interacting with us and having meaningful conversations / discussions.

 

Be cool dude!

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Yes it is an acceptable way of framing the question and I am sorry if you found my answer lacking in it's depth. Part of the reason for that is that this episode in particular probably has among the largest divergence from the books in the show to date IMO and I was probably a little too keen to emphasise that point. The other was as I said I thought it fairly obvious that I did not consider them good changes.

 

I was more than happy to expand on my thoughts if asked.

 

Biased and obstinant. I don't believe are fair. I have praised the show on the few occasions that I think they have done something good for example Egwenes Damane episode arc and I was practically glowing with praise for the Rhuidean sequence. But it is hard for me to be praising of the majority of the content when I truly believe it to be poor. I have often included lore and in world mechanics and plots that could explain issues I have identified as being poor, something I would not have done if I was purely attacking the show out of malice and spite.

 

As for obstinant I almost always provide examples of the things I am arguing and in a large number of responses people either tell me that I am nitpicking or that it does not damage the worldbuilding or immersement for them. I don't feel that the times people have presented counter arguments to these things that I think fix the issues I have been unreasonable. Although this does come with a healthy serve of what each individual finds okay.

 

As for the personalities thing it is not my intention to drive people away. I am simply expressing my opinion and engaging with the responses. I would also point out that I have never started the personal attacks that have occurred in these threads, I possibly could probably have handled my responses to some of them in a more adult manner.

 

 

[Skipp]

  On 3/31/2025 at 3:56 AM, Pandemonium said:

Not sure if anyone in this thread mentioned this yet, but i rewatched e5 again and was just noticed that the white sister was Alviarin.  Between Gitara, Verin, Sheriam, and Alviarin still being at the tower there were definitely way more than the 4 black ajah hearts that Liandrin knew about.   Of course, we don't know who is black ajah yet on this show.  

 

Also on Aes Sedai talk, almost all the Ajahs have been explained now except the Grey Ajah.  Alviarin was first main white that we saw (I think) I don't think we have had much interaction with the Greys yet.   They don't get a lot of love in the books either, but I predict we will have a Grey encounter sooner or later.

 

 

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Joiya kinda explained the gray ajah in episode 3, when Nynaeve and Elayne are interrogating her.