S3E4 - The Road to the Spear

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/27/2025 at 2:12 PM, Mirefox said:

Hey, I was giving the show one of my very rare benefits of the doubt, but if you tell me there were actually no excuses for it looking half-baked, I’m fine running with that…

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  On 3/27/2025 at 2:14 PM, Turin Turambar said:

One thing to consider  though is the amount of total money they had for season 1. There was apparently a plan to do some things differently that got lost because of COVID and the resulting issues like Barney leaving. Those plans may have been costly which requires skimping elsewhere.  Idk if that's why or they just were going for a minimalist look, lol if that was a reason.

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This is just my honest take. One of the things I'm most critical of in this show is the big battle scenes. I don't think they've done one right to this point in the series. The things that are supposed to have been massive fights have just felt very small. The one exception to that was Winternight, which I felt they did well from a scale perspective but failed at from a pacing perspective. It went on way too long. They could have trimmed a solid two minutes of that fight and lost nothing.

 

That's not to say I don't enjoy the show. I really do. Everyone understands that one of the things that's so hard about adapting WoT is it's scale. To tell the story effectively on t.v., you have to make it a character focused action/drama. But it's not written that way. So you have to be able to sort of zoom in  - write episodes that are crisp, centered on easily understandable plot arcs, and focus on the main characters. But you also have to be able to zoom out - depict massive, world changing, epic events which requires a sense of the massive scale to do properly.

 

I think Rafe is really good at the former, but not so great at the latter. 

[Scarloc99]

  On 3/25/2025 at 11:30 AM, Irvyne said:

But the way I see it, is that Rand's ancestors didn't ACTUALLY look just like him; Josha was merely cast in those roles so that people watching the TV show would "get it."

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I see it more that the crystals make your ancestors look like you so it is clear they are your ancestors. You see yourself in there role, in reality you might be taller, shorter etc. 

[DaddyFinn]

  On 3/27/2025 at 2:03 PM, Elder_Haman said:

I’m pretty sure the COVID issues hadn’t hit yet when the Logain episode was shot. 

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I did a quick check and apparently covid restrictions hit after E4 was filmed. I'm not sure if CGI suffered for that episode also.

[DigificWriter]

I don't know why it slipped my mind to comment on this earlier, but for all of the dramatic chaos that the Bore initially caused, its long-term impact on the world in the show was implied to actually be pretty minimal until Lews decided to go try to reseal the Dark One's Prison 500 years later.

[Agitel]

I'm not sure if that was an intentional choice on Rafe's part. 

 

The book lore is that there was no immediate, noticeable impact of the Bore, at least on society at a large scale. But what followed was 80-90 years of social decay, and cults presumably popping up around the Dark One. Then it broke into all put war, which lasted a decade with massive devastation. The Light was losing the war, and two desperate gambits were devised by different factions. LTT and his "hundred companions" sealing the Bore was one of them. 

 

Now it's possible there were some pockets of paradise left at this point, but the scene in Season One suggests a very different history for the show. 

 

Anyway, in the books, the sealing was followed by the Breaking, which lasted centuries before things calmed down. Perhaps in the show there was no great war, maybe everything was very mild until the Breaking. 

Edited Sunday at 05:29 PM by Agitel

[DigificWriter]

  On 3/30/2025 at 5:28 PM, Agitel said:

Then it broke into all put war, which lasted a decade with massive devastation. The Light was losing the war, and two desperate gambits were devised by different factions. LTT and his "hundred companions" sealing the Bore was one of them. 

 

Now it's possible there were some pockets of paradise left at this point, but the scene in Season One suggests a very different history for the show. 

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The bolded ilis exactly what I was getting at. I think that the show implies that, aside from the presence of the Forsaken and whatever chaos and unrest they caused, there wasn't actually any urgency - even 500 years after the Bore - to deal with things vis a vis the Dark One touching the world until Lews decided to just do so with or without the support of Latra and the female Aes Sedai, which paints the dramatic immediate effect of the Bore itself - the black tendrils and the crashing of the Charom - in a very different light than I think book fans - regardless of their positive or negative feelings about the show - may have considered.

Edited Sunday at 05:39 PM by DigificWriter

[Mailman]

  On 3/30/2025 at 4:35 PM, DigificWriter said:

I don't know why it slipped my mind to comment on this earlier, but for all of the dramatic chaos that the Bore initially caused, its long-term impact on the world in the show was implied to actually be pretty minimal until Lews decided to go try to reseal the Dark One's Prison 500 years later.

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Was that the timeline the show created in the Latra cold open?

 

The book version is that it was around 80 to 100 years of slow breakdown from the opening until the War of Power began which Jordan said lasted only around 10 years but events in the books supported it could have lasted around 50 to 75 years according to the WoT wiki.

[DigificWriter]

 

  On 3/31/2025 at 12:56 AM, Mailman said:

Was that the timeline the show created in the Latra cold open?

 

The book version is that it was around 80 to 100 years of slow breakdown from the opening until the War of Power began which Jordan said lasted only around 10 years but events in the books supported it could have lasted around 50 to 75 years according to the WoT wiki.

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I can't remember exactly where I got the number 500 from, but it's specific enough that I couldn't have come up with it on my own.

 

Even if there wasn't 500 years between the Bore and Lews' attempt to cage the Dark One in-show, the Cold Open to The Eye of the World does still imply that, aside from the presence of the Forsaken, things were fairly calm until Lews did what he did.

[Mailman]

  On 3/31/2025 at 1:13 AM, DigificWriter said:

 

 

I can't remember exactly where I got the number 500 from, but it's specific enough that I couldn't have come up with it on my own.

 

Even if there wasn't 500 years between the Bore and Lews' attempt to cage the Dark One in-show, the Cold Open to The Eye of the World does still imply that, aside from the presence of the Forsaken, things were fairly calm until Lews did what he did.

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The War of the Power I don't think could be described as fairly calm.

Are you referring to the cold open in the book? Have you read the cold open in the book?

As the book only references the war in that section at all with LTT saying for 10 years your foul master has wracked the world.

 

I cannot ever remember the number 500 coming up in terms of the WoP, so I am not sure about it's accuracy.

[Mailman]

Sorry I realise you are probably referencing s01e08

 

One of the criticisms leveled by people was just how idyllic the world in the that cold open was and that it did not accurately convey the absolute desperation that should have been present.

[DigificWriter]

  On 3/31/2025 at 1:27 AM, Mailman said:

The War of the Power I don't think could be described as fairly calm.

Are you referring to the cold open in the book? Have you read the cold open in the book?

As the book only references the war in that section at all with LTT saying for 10 years your foul master has wracked the world.

 

I cannot ever remember the number 500 coming up in terms of the WoP, so I am not sure about it's accuracy.

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I'm referring to the Cold Open of Episode 1x08 (The Eye of the World) where we get a glimpse of a very peaceful futuristic society outside the window of Lews' daughter's nursery.

 

I'm also referring to the tenor and substance of Lews and Latra's conversation from that same Cold Open, which indicates a lack of urgency in needing to deal with the 'problem' of the Dark One touching the world.

 

Edit: Ninja'd

 

Edited yesterday at 01:38 AM by DigificWriter

[Mailman]

  On 3/31/2025 at 1:36 AM, DigificWriter said:

 

I'm referring to the Cold Open of Episode 1x08 (The Eye of the World) where we get a glimpse of a very peaceful futuristic society outside the window of Lews' daughter's nursery.

 

I'm also referring to the tenor and substance of Lews and Latra's conversation from that same Cold Open, which indicates a lack of urgency in needing to deal with the 'problem' of the Dark One touching the world.

 

Edit: Ninja'd

 

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Yep lol I remembered that the last episode had the same name as the first book after I posted.

[DigificWriter]

  On 3/31/2025 at 1:40 AM, Mailman said:

Yep lol I remembered that the last episode had the same name as the first book after I posted.

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It can definitely be difficult to remember the individual titles of specific episodes since they're not displayed onscreen.

Edited yesterday at 01:47 AM by DigificWriter

[Turin Turambar]

Would not say that the war of power was in any way calm. Perhaps at the location they were the weren't threatened but thewar itself was devastating. I would say it is possible that they both knew the effects of the war so didn't need to talk about it. Like soldiers in the field. Concentrate on the job at hand. 

I guess if you are arguing that the show isn't depicting the trauma, fair enough.

[Mailman]

  On 3/31/2025 at 8:59 AM, Turin Turambar said:

Would not say that the war of power was in any way calm. Perhaps at the location they were the weren't threatened but thewar itself was devastating. I would say it is possible that they both knew the effects of the war so didn't need to talk about it. Like soldiers in the field. Concentrate on the job at hand. 

I guess if you are arguing that the show isn't depicting the trauma, fair enough.

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It's a while back to remember but I think it was fairly universal that people enjoyed seeing the future tech in that scene but also that everything was a bit clean for depicting the final days of what should have been a desperate last stand for the audience's perspective.

[notpropaganda73]

I would need to rewatch the S1e8 cold open. It wasn't my impression on first watch that there was no urgency, but it has been a long time and I have not rewatched that episode (for obvious reasons). I remember at the time thinking the cold open was easily the best thing about the episode, so maybe I didn't pick up on wider implications in the scene.

 

Finally got my rewatch of episode 4:

 

- Flame and the Void, FINALLY. Rand talking about his father, FINALLY. Lan and Rand bonding, FINALLY. I am happy to see these things but really feel we could have had a scene like this all the way back in Season 1, honestly. If you lifted this scene and put it back to before Shadar Logoth, we would have gained a lot in my view. But glad to have finally gotten it now.

- I liked the Aviendha and Lan "fight". I thought Lan was being playful to be honest, and I felt like it showed the Aiel respect him more than other wetlanders (likely any other wetlander). It was also a nice contrast with Aviendha having fun and then immediately having to break her spears. My only criticism of this scene is I don't think there was any set up for Aviendha becoming a Wise One. Even one or two lines of dialogue in previous episodes indicating she was avoiding Wise Ones or something would have set it up a little better for me. 

- I really loved the introduction of Sevanna and Couladin, I think the actor for Couladin is great on the limited amount we've seen him. The reveal of Bair being able to channel was well done (I think there can be no doubt now the show is not following book lore in terms of women sensing one another's abilities) and the info being conveyed by the Aiel in terms of Rhuidean etc., is all really well handled. I love the spears being left and the indicator that these are the Aiel who did not return and take their weapons back. Also Moiraine with the knives was a nice nod to Mat!

- Moiraine and Rand under Avendesora and the small lore-dump about the Aiel War and "some old debt" or however Moiraine phrased it was a nice nod to the vision from the books that we did not have time for in the episode. I thought it was a good choice to include a flashback to Rand's father - it's frustrating he was unveiled but as many have noted I think this is just a function of the visual medium. Directors' and actors' and actors' agents want the faces to be visible. It's extremely annoying from a lore and faithfulness point of view, especially when they explain in the Lewin flashback where the veil has come from, but in general I get it. 

- I have already spoken about the Lewin scene, it is easily the highlight of the episode for me and that final "hide your face stranger" was absolutely heartbreaking. My partner was in tears watching this scene and has no knowledge of the books so I think the show deserves huge kudos for getting the emotional weight of this across.

- The one flashback I did not particularly like, or felt it missed the mark compared to the others, was Latra and the Oath. There were cool visuals in this scene of the Breaking. But I felt there could have at least been a reference to the famous scene of the Aiel singing arm-in-arm to a male channeller to try and cure his madness. This would have tied nicely with the Tuatha'an against the Whitecloaks in S1. This sort of small detail has been missing a lot for me throughout the series and just keeps it at "generally good, not great".

- The Bore! Mierin Sedai! The Song! A close 2nd to the Lewin scene for me. The Bore was incredible, this rip in reality, it really hammers home that this isn't witches and wizards and Dark Lords, but something cosmic. 

- On Moiraine... I have a few quibbles. I found the scene of her finding Sarkonnen a bit clunky/forced, but it serves it's purpose I suppose. The rings looked awesome. But I think I would have preferred one or two more "in depth" scenes of these possible futures, with the "turning" scenes ending her second vision maybe. I felt like these possible futures just went by a little too fast. I understand that Moiraine sees a thousand possible futures and all the rest, but maybe just one more detailed scene for us to sit with, I would have enjoyed. But obviously this is all more than we saw in the books (I think?) which is great too. 

- I liked Rand staying for Moiraine. Carrying her out as well, it was all great visuals and I liked that they made the decision to skip the dialogue at the end of the episode. We'd all just been through something big, it was good to sit with it in a bit of a silence! 

 

Overall, a great achievement for everyone involved in the episode. Like I mentioned, I feel like the rest of the series has been too inconsistent to really elevate this to an all-timer, but the more I sit with it the more and more I really love this episode. They did a great job of adapting my favourite sequence of chapters in all of fantasy.

[Sabio]

  On 3/27/2025 at 3:28 PM, DaddyFinn said:

I did a quick check and apparently covid restrictions hit after E4 was filmed. I'm not sure if CGI suffered for that episode also.

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Not to mention COVID can't be blamed on the horrible, linked super Egewne healing at the end of the last episode of Season 1.

[SinisterDeath]

  7 hours ago, Sabio said:

Not to mention COVID can't be blamed on the horrible, linked super Egewne healing at the end of the last episode of Season 1.

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Egwene was going to use CPR to revive Nynaeve, but COVID changed that.

[Samt]

  4 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Egwene was going to use CPR to revive Nynaeve, but COVID changed that.

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I’ve heard this a couple times before, but I’m skeptical that CPR makes it better.  In addition to feeling anachronistic(just my opinion), it also feels like a fakeout death that undermines the stakes.  It’s drama for drama’s sake that doesn’t serve the larger narrative.

[SinisterDeath]

  2 hours ago, Samt said:

I’ve heard this a couple times before, but I’m skeptical that CPR makes it better.  In addition to feeling anachronistic(just my opinion), it also feels like a fakeout death that undermines the stakes.  It’s drama for drama’s sake that doesn’t serve the larger narrative.

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Considering a lot of the complaints is that "Healing is Nynaeve's thing", and that they gave "Egwene super healing", so having her fall back on the wisdom skills Nynaeve taught her (cpr)... because she's been drained of the one power after going through that entire ordeal with the Circle where she was forced to use up all of her power... (Are you sensing a theme here for the following season?)