S3E4 - The Road to the Spear

[Agitel]

  On 3/21/2025 at 9:23 PM, SinisterDeath said:

This honestly doesn't surprise me.

Like, the series was planned as 8 Episodes, and 8 Seasons... But what happens if they are told by Amazon that the 4th or 5th season will be their last?

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The second Callandor was mentioned as the most powerful male sa'angreal and it having an equivalent for the female half of the True Source it seemed obvious this is the way they're going. Happy for the confirmation, though.  I am on board with the simplification. Like I detailed earlier in my full books spoiler post, I am... interested in how they handle a couple plot points that are put in conflict because of the simplificiation. 

Edited Friday at 09:34 PM by Agitel

[Mirefox]

  On 3/21/2025 at 9:24 PM, A Memory Of Why said:

 

Yeah, episode 2 i think..

 

Avi talking to Moraine and Eggy about prophesies (a remnant of a remnant) and Bair at the end (he shall come from the west).

 

Also in the Rhuidean visions with the AS.

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Did they use the “he will take you back and destroy you” language?

[Kaleb]

  On 3/21/2025 at 9:14 PM, DreadLord31 said:

Like @DigificWriter brought up - what is the show’s metaphysics of reincarnation? And then a bunch of book readers gave book explanations. The truth is… the show has sucked at metaphysics and logical consistency with it. Going all the way back to S1 E1 opening lines where they said “The Dragon Reborn could be reborn as a girl.”  No. Core to the whole story is the Dragon was a male Aes Sedai and the male half of the OP is tainted so the Dragon Reborn goes insane while he is suppose to save the world. 
 

Show metaphysics of the halves of the OP. Of reincarnation. Of the dagger and Shadar Logoth. Are not very clear at all. 

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Agitel said it as well, but none of this is really clear in the books at this point either, other than saidin and saidar. Honestly, finding out more about all those things was a huge motivator to keep reading the books, definitely things I wanted to know more about. 

 

For “The Dragon Reborn could be reborn as a girl” -- Nobody believed this in the books, but that Moiraine and other Aes Sedai believe it in the show doesn't change the story being that the Dragon was in fact reborn as a man. That false belief is the kind of thing Jordan certainly could have written. Also, there's nowhere I can remember where he says that there are eternal genders ascribed to all souls and everyone comes back as men or women every time.  The ambient dread of men who can channel hasn't been drilled home through repetition the way it was in the books, sure. But the core elements of the story that you listed haven't changed.

Edited Friday at 09:43 PM by Kaleb

[DreadLord31]

  On 3/21/2025 at 9:42 PM, Kaleb said:

Honestly, finding out more about all those things was a huge motivator to keep reading the books, definitely things I wanted to know more about. 

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The question at hand was the metaphysics of reincarnation - and are you arguing that it’s clear or semi-clear in the show but wasn’t in the books by book 4? (Clarifying question). 

[Agitel]

  On 3/21/2025 at 9:42 PM, Kaleb said:

Also, there's nowhere I can remember where he says that there are eternal genders ascribed to all souls and everyone comes back as men or women every time. 

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This is just an "ackshually" moment on my part, nothing to do with the show...

 

Outside of the books, both Jordan and Sanderson confirmed (for better or worse) that gender is a soul attribute in the Wheel of Time world. 

 

Interviews with both with direct answers are included here. 

 

https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt='dragon soul'

[Kaleb]

  On 3/21/2025 at 9:54 PM, DreadLord31 said:

The question at hand was the metaphysics of reincarnation - and are you arguing that it’s clear or semi-clear in the show but wasn’t in the books by book 4? (Clarifying question). 

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I'm saying it's about the same level of clarity in both at this point of the story.

 

  On 3/21/2025 at 9:55 PM, Agitel said:

 

This is just an "ackshually" moment on my part, nothing to do with the show...

 

Outside of the books, both Jordan and Sanderson confirmed (for better or worse) that gender is a soul attribute in the Wheel of Time world. 

 

Interviews with both with direct answers are included here. 

 

https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt='dragon soul'

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Ok, point taken! I haven't read or watched much of any lore explainers outside of the books themselves.

[DreadLord31]

  On 3/21/2025 at 9:55 PM, Agitel said:

Outside of the books, both Jordan and Sanderson confirmed (for better or worse) that gender is a soul attribute in the Wheel of Time world. 

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And the Ying/Yang, Male/Female, balance and power and reincarnation eastern worldview/dynamic - and the power dynamics and sexism that might occur if the world-typical patriarchy was reversed to be matriarchy’s is pretty core to everything the series is about. 
I.E read Nyn’s hundreds of sexist comments about men in the series. 
 

So yeah… gendered souls is pretty important to wheel of time (and only time it’s reversed is a machination of the DO as a punishment)! 

[Mailman]

  On 3/21/2025 at 10:02 PM, DreadLord31 said:

And the Ying/Yang, Male/Female, balance and power and reincarnation eastern worldview/dynamic - and the power dynamics and sexism that might occur if the world-typical patriarchy was reversed to be matriarchy’s is pretty core to everything the series is about. 
I.E read Nyn’s hundreds of sexist comments about men in the series. 
 

So yeah… gendered souls is pretty important to wheel of time (and only time it’s reversed is a machination of the DO as a punishment)! 

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  Reveal hidden contents

I don't think you can describe what the dark one does as reincarnation as he takes the same consciousness and implants it in a new body. He seems to snatch the person as they die then returns them as the same person in a new container as such.

 

Edited Friday at 10:36 PM by Mailman

[DreadLord31]

  On 3/21/2025 at 10:17 PM, Mailman said:

I don't think you can describe what the dark one does as reincarnation as he takes the same consciousness and implants it in a new body. He seems to snatch the person as they die then returns them as the same person in a new container as such.

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 Good point. At least … with the Forsaken (not sure if I remember regular Darkfriends getting that deal?) 

[Agitel]

Should recent discussion be in spoilers tags?

[DigificWriter]

I have brought this up in the past almost to the point of "flogging a dead horse", but Rafe Judkins explicitly stated that, for the purposes of the TV show, souls were degendered, turning the potentiality of the Dragon Reborn being either male or female from an erroneous in-universe belief caused by "legend fading to myth" into an actual possible reality.

[Mirefox]

  On 3/21/2025 at 10:34 PM, DigificWriter said:

I have brought this up in the past almost to the point of "flogging a dead horse", but Rafe Judkins explicitly stated that, for the purposes of the TV show, souls were degendered, turning the potentiality of the Dragon Reborn being either male or female from an erroneous in-universe belief caused by "legend fading to myth" into an actual possible reality.

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Rafe degendered souls because gender ideology is more important to Rafe than fidelity to the source and this is a perfect case in point.  The Wheel of Time wouldn’t exist without the dragon being male; a massive part of the story revolves around the taint and the inevitability of the Dragon going insane (again).  

[DigificWriter]

 

  On 3/21/2025 at 10:48 PM, Mirefox said:

Rafe degendered souls because gender ideology is more important to Rafe than fidelity to the source and this is a perfect case in point.

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This is untrue because there was never any intention on Rafe's part to actually change the identity of the Dragon Reborn.

[Mirefox]

  On 3/21/2025 at 10:55 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

 

This is untrue because there was never any intention on Rafe's part to actually change the identity of the Dragon Reborn.

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Thus a 100% unnecessary change that didn’t further the narrative in any way or help in changing the medium of the story.

[Turin Turambar]

  On 3/21/2025 at 10:24 PM, DreadLord31 said:

 Good point. At least … with the Forsaken (not sure if I remember regular Darkfriends getting that deal?) 

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Seriously,  being a regular person darkfriend is like being in the worlds worst MLM scheme. 

[DigificWriter]

@Mirefox Things that the degendering of souls does:

1) Allows for the deepening of characterization (i.e. Logain being driven mad by both male and female voices, Egwene being able to literally imagine herself as Jain Farstrider, Mat's 'tea-induced hallucinations' of his mother being literal manifestations of his own past)

 

2) Both deepens and simultaneously simplifies the metaphysics of the societal belief in Reincarnation

 

3) Complicates the modern White Tower's stated mission of "controlling and caging the Dragon Reborn" (although Siuan does say that things would be easier if Rand were a girl, I think we've subsequently learned enough to write that off as her being snarky)

[A Memory Of Why]

  On 3/21/2025 at 9:32 PM, Mirefox said:

Did they use the “he will take you back and destroy you” language?

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Pretty much, they're virtually word for word. I'd have to rewatch but I think they'll Rhuidian vision does the above extract you mentioned.

[KakitaOCU]

  On 3/21/2025 at 11:05 PM, Mirefox said:

Thus a 100% unnecessary change that didn’t further the narrative in any way or help in changing the medium of the story.

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It helps by removing what was, I hope, an accidental side effect of the original method that locked gender and thus dismissed or alienated a group of people from the story.  It also isn't a new thing, I can remember all the way back to a fairly large WoT free form RP in the AOL days (Anyone else part of that?  🙂 ) where there were discussions about Aran'gar's ramifications, if it would be possible outside and at least one character concept around a man channeling Saidar. 

Since Rand was never not going to be the dragon, there is no validity in the complaint that the change ruins anything.

Unnecessary means different things in different content.  It changed nothing in the actual plot, true.  But it avoided a potential pitfall with fans and avoided making the show non-inclusive to a marginalized group.

Edited yesterday at 02:46 AM by KakitaOCU

[DreadLord31]

  On 3/21/2025 at 10:34 PM, DigificWriter said:

I have brought this up in the past almost to the point of "flogging a dead horse", but Rafe Judkins explicitly stated that, for the purposes of the TV show, souls were degendered, turning the potentiality of the Dragon Reborn being either male or female from an erroneous in-universe belief caused by "legend fading to myth" into an actual possible reality.

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If this is true and Rafe said that - I’m back to “I really don’t trust this showrunner knows what the books were about/loves what Jordan wrote.” But anyways. 
 

Is there pretty much widespread agreement that this was the best episode yet? 
 

That’s what I’m seeing from the content creators/book readers! 

Edited yesterday at 02:05 AM by DreadLord31
Don’t want to fight with ppl.

[Sabio]

  On 3/21/2025 at 11:05 PM, Mirefox said:

Thus a 100% unnecessary change that didn’t further the narrative in any way or help in changing the medium of the story.

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It was meant to keep non book readers guessing who the Dragon might be but also play on in all the other worlds there is no reason the dragon couldn't be a female.  As they said this world should be seen to the viewer as one of the possible turnings.  As others have said the dragon was always going to be Rand so it was more of a way to try and keep the new viewers guessing.

Edited yesterday at 02:20 AM by Sabio

[DigificWriter]

  On 3/22/2025 at 2:17 AM, Sabio said:

It was meant to keep non book readers guessing who the Dragon might be,

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And, as,I noted, deepen characterization and Lore.

[DreadLord31]

  On 3/22/2025 at 2:19 AM, DigificWriter said:

 

And, as,I noted, deepen characterization and Lore.

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How do I make a gagging face at the notion that the Tv show has “deepened the Lore”? If that’s what the showrunner and writers are aiming to do than even after this wonderful episode… I pray the show is cancelled immediately!

[KakitaOCU]

  On 3/22/2025 at 2:31 AM, DreadLord31 said:

How do I make a gagging face at the notion that the Tv show has “deepened the Lore”? If that’s what the showrunner and writers are aiming to do than even after this wonderful episode… I pray the show is cancelled immediately!

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The show has clearly done things that, while we might not agree, I can easily see as being a way to let something that happened in the books have more impact or get the audience going "Ohh, that's like..."

Other examples available but off topic since they're in other episodes. 

Just looking at this episode.  Having Rand jump straight to Janduin helps give him a deeper connection to his father and a better understanding of what happened.  Watching the scene also suddenly gave me more appreciation for in the book when Rand says his parents are Tam and Kari but he wishes he could have known Tigraine and Janduin.

I think the way Moraine's visions were such rapid fire flickers and insanity is a VERY solid way of showing how the arch visions jumble and vanish away until you only really hold onto certain messages.

Edited yesterday at 02:51 AM by KakitaOCU

[DreadLord31]

This past episode, I would say, is the best yet because they did their best to give us the book - and because they were not attempting to “deepen” or “improve”. 
 

Just give us Jordan’s WoT as close as you can & the show would be a success. Obviously we all understand that there are limitations and need to have “changes” for a dif medium and because you only have 8 seasons and 8 episode seasons. 
 

So the example you gave is a good one. We couldn’t have all 9 steps back because there isn’t time. Janduin is a good place to start. But not having Janduin mask to kill is … a fail … book or show. 
 

“Improving” the Lore? Like they tried to do in first 2 Seasons with stuff like “degendering souls”? Has demonstrably been a massive fail (hence the real possibility the show is cancelled after this season). 

The closer they get to “book faithful” the better it is (like this episode)! 

Edited yesterday at 03:30 AM by DreadLord31

[KakitaOCU]

  On 3/22/2025 at 3:23 AM, DreadLord31 said:

So the example you gave is a good one. We couldn’t have all 9 steps back because there isn’t time. Janduin is a good place to start. But not having Janduin mask to kill is … a fail … book or show. 

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This is an attempt to deepen and improve.  The books specifically start at the Age of Legends and then stop at the Peace of Rhuidean.  Them giving Janduin and letting him be his own father and see his mother is a deeper connection that Rand in the books does not get.

 

  On 3/22/2025 at 3:23 AM, DreadLord31 said:

“Improving” the Lore? Like they tried to do in first 2 Seasons with stuff like “degendering souls”. Is a massive fail. 

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Will request you don't do this particular rabbit hole with me.  Not saying don't talk it or anything, but I won't engage or will end up engaging too much on that topic.  Leaving souls hard gendered would have made the show a non-starter for me.  I had a lot of trouble dealing with it the first time around and found Aran'gar a saving grace because it meant he had thought about it some an knew it was maybe a line that had potential hiccups.  (That said, met him twice, only once when I was relatively passing and he was never anything but polite and friendly.).