Wheel of Time Season 3 - Full Season Discussion

[king of nowhere]

  On 4/20/2025 at 1:56 PM, Mailman said:

Come on.

 

What are you basing that on.

The twins are so young that they could not have been channeling for long I would not be surprised if the cage scene was the first touch.

Why was Alanna teaching them how to touch the source if they already had that level of control.

Egwene was able to heal Nyn about 5 weeks later from incredibly close to death to full health.

Age has impact because the touching falls in a narrow window.

 

Is it truly impossible to admit that it does not actually make any sense.

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  On 4/20/2025 at 2:11 PM, Turin Turambar said:

I would say the context and Nattie's immediate reaction indicate otherwise. They didn't seem shocked something happened and Nattie didn't either. She was quick to cover for them as a mother would but there was no delay as would be expected to find out your children could do something thought anathema to most.

Allana  only knows one way to teach. And she was not imtending to teach them battle weaves. They.may have picked it up watching her anyway. 

 

I think everyone doubted the believability of that healing scene in S1E8.

 

I'm saying it isn't as unbelievable as you are making it out to be As we just don't know what the twins have been doing for the past two years. 

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i've seen somebody theorize that the girls had been unconsciously healing their mother of her hangovers for a while, so healing was their wilder trick.

while not very satisfying, it is the best explanation to keep some sense in what happened.

[Kaleb]

For a book series that obviously foregrounded literal plot armor (ta'veren, the Wheel itself), it's very frustrating to see book readers complain about these same devices in the TV adaptation. I guess it was ok as long as there was Loial or Verin to murmur something about ta'veren on the page, but if we don't have a character spoonfeeding us the reminder that "the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills" then it's some kind of massive writing failure? Nynaeve was only alive to break her block in the books because...Moghedien was startled by a random flock of pigeons! The books are full of stupid unbelievable contrivances like that, and I think most of us love them anyway. Did we ever need a debate over whether a Forsaken would give a damn about pigeons, or whether the nuances of her mental distress in that moment justify this slip? No, we never have. I get that arguing on the internet is fun for a lot of people, theorizing and counter-theorizing and nitpicking and all of it. But in the context of an adaptation of The Wheel Of Deus Ex Machina, I have zero problem letting the Cauthon girls be improbably skilled healers so the story moves forward.

[Walker012]

  On 4/21/2025 at 3:14 AM, DigificWriter said:

 

No, they didn't.

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Did you watch the little post-credits interview thing for the last episode? They were pretty explicit that they killed her off because they thought that her storyline in the books wasn't worth Sophie Okonedo's talents and this would give more emotional depth to Moiraine's fight with Lanfear. Killing off a character to motivate another character is the definition of fridging.

 

You can argue that killing her off to motivate Moiraine is a better use of her than marrying her off to Gareth freakin' Bryne, sure. But I don't think that changes the fact that's she's still there, headless and chilly.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/21/2025 at 11:00 PM, Walker012 said:

Killing off a character to motivate another character is the definition of fridging.

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No. No, no, no. That not what fridging is. Fridging is creating a character  for the sole purpose of killing them in order to motivate the main character. You know like Laila Aybara. 
 

Siuan was not fridged. She died. 

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/21/2025 at 11:00 PM, Walker012 said:

 

Did you watch the little post-credits interview thing for the last episode? They were pretty explicit that they killed her off because they thought that her storyline in the books wasn't worth Sophie Okonedo's talents and this would give more emotional depth to Moiraine's fight with Lanfear. Killing off a character to motivate another character is the definition of fridging.

 

You can argue that killing her off to motivate Moiraine is a better use of her than marrying her off to Gareth freakin' Bryne, sure. But I don't think that changes the fact that's she's still there, headless and chilly.

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As @Elder_Haman said, what happened we with Siuan does not in any way fall into the definition of Fridging.

 

If one is looking to negatively label the decision to kill Siuan by lumping it into Trope territory, it could be construed as falling into the category of Bury Your Gays, although I don't have any interest in going down that particular rabbit hole because I don't think it's either appropriate or applicable to do so.

[Walker012]

  On 4/21/2025 at 11:05 PM, Elder_Haman said:

No. No, no, no. That not what fridging is. Fridging is creating a character  for the sole purpose of killing them in order to motivate the main character. You know like Laila Aybara. 
 

Siuan was not fridged. She died. 

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It is accurate that Laila got fridged.

 

If you would like to add an arbitrary and additional distinction to the term "fridging" which requires that the character have been created solely so that they can die and motivate another character then I sincerely apologize for failing to fully engage with your vernacular and would like to restate my complaint as follows:

 

What the FRIDGE, they killed of Siuan to motivate Moiraine and provide extra emotional depth to her fight with Lanfear and that is a stupid waste of a character and of an extremely talented actress and I DO NOT LIKE this narrative decision!

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/21/2025 at 11:49 PM, Walker012 said:

If you would like to add an arbitrary and additional distinction to the term "fridging”…

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It is not arbitrary. It’s literally the definition of the term. 

 

  On 4/21/2025 at 11:49 PM, Walker012 said:

they killed of Siuan to motivate Moiraine and provide extra emotional depth to her fight with Lanfear

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Yes. And also to highlight Elaina’s venal cruelty. And also to drop an important hint about another character. And also as a symbol of the Tower itself. 
 

I get that you don’t like it. But there was a lot more depth to the decision than you’re willing to acknowledge. 

[DigificWriter]

@Walker012 The fact that you didn't like Siuan's death doesn't make it an example of the Fridging trope.

 

Yes, Siuan's death serves as the catalyst that powers an element of Moiraine's storyline this season, but they did not kill her solely to motivate Moiraine.

 

There's also the simple fact that Moiraine is not a man, and the trope of Fridging is literally dependent on a female character being harmed solely to motivate a male character.

 

Edited April 22 by DigificWriter

[Walker012]

  On 4/21/2025 at 11:55 PM, Elder_Haman said:

It is not arbitrary. It’s literally the definition of the term. 

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  On 4/22/2025 at 12:08 AM, DigificWriter said:

@Walker012 The fact that you didn't like Siuan's death doesn't make it an example of the Fridging trope.

 

Yes, Siuan's death serves as the catalyst that powers an element of Moiraine's storyline this season, but they did not kill her solely to motivate Moiraine.

 

There's also the simple fact that Moiraine is not a man, and the trope of Fridging is literally dependent on a female character being harmed solely to motivate a male character.

 

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Not terribly interested in arguing about the definitions-- I disagree with your definition, but it's not relevant to my complaint-- you get my point, they said they did it to motivate Moiraine.

 

  On 4/21/2025 at 11:55 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Yes. And also to highlight Elaina’s venal cruelty. And also to drop an important hint about another character. And also as a symbol of the Tower itself. 
 

I get that you don’t like it. But there was a lot more depth to the decision than you’re willing to acknowledge. 

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I don't know if it counts as a hint. They've been playing fast-and-loose with the Oath against killing "unless they're a darkfriend, or in defense of her life or her warder's life or the life of another sister" this whole time. If we're taking that execution as a hint, then what do we call it when Moiraine took out half a Seanchan fleet in the last season?

 

I don't know that there was any more depth to the scene that I was giving it. They said they wanted to give Siuan a big speech and motivate Moiriane. That's what they did, and they cut a really time-consuming subplot. You could argue that it was a very practical choice.

 

But her getting dead impacts Moiriane immediately and obviously and for the Tower it mostly just cuts off the cruelty and the torture that Siuan's speech emphasized. All it tells us about the Tower is that they are down with torture (which, no shit, everyone in this series loves torture) and they are merciless to darkfriends (which, no shit, so is everyone in this series).

Edited April 22 by Walker012

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

  On 4/22/2025 at 12:17 AM, Walker012 said:

They've been playing fast-and-loose with the Oath against killing

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The oath is not against killing.  The wording is that they will not use the one power as a weapon except ...

 

Using it as a means of execution is lawful and well within the range of Aes Sedai hypocrisy/word butchering not to count as using it as a weapon, as is stilling/gentling even though it causes permanent harm and is likely to have an end result of death.   

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/22/2025 at 12:17 AM, Walker012 said:

I disagree with your definition

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It's not my definition; it's the definition.

 

So whether or not you agree with it is irrelevant.

[Mailman]

  On 4/22/2025 at 12:49 AM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

The oath is not against killing.  The wording is that they will not use the one power as a weapon except ...

 

Using it as a means of execution is lawful and well within the range of Aes Sedai hypocrisy/word butchering not to count as using it as a weapon, as is stilling/gentling even though it causes permanent harm and is likely to have an end result of death.   

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No. That is not right. 

[EmreY]

  On 4/21/2025 at 5:09 PM, Kaleb said:

For a book series that obviously foregrounded literal plot armor (ta'veren, the Wheel itself), it's very frustrating to see book readers complain about these same devices in the TV adaptation. I guess it was ok as long as there was Loial or Verin to murmur something about ta'veren on the page, but if we don't have a character spoonfeeding us the reminder that "the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills" then it's some kind of massive writing failure? Nynaeve was only alive to break her block in the books because...Moghedien was startled by a random flock of pigeons! The books are full of stupid unbelievable contrivances like that, and I think most of us love them anyway. Did we ever need a debate over whether a Forsaken would give a damn about pigeons, or whether the nuances of her mental distress in that moment justify this slip? No, we never have. I get that arguing on the internet is fun for a lot of people, theorizing and counter-theorizing and nitpicking and all of it. But in the context of an adaptation of The Wheel Of Deus Ex Machina, I have zero problem letting the Cauthon girls be improbably skilled healers so the story moves forward.

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I agree.

 

However, I must say that I like the book armour when it applies to late-story Rand.

 

After the "do you believe that I could kill you? Right here, right now, without using a sword or the Power? Do you believe that if I simply willed it, the Pattern would bend around me and stop your heart? By... coincidence?" comment I kept waiting for yet another bunch of renegade Aes Sedai to catch Rand unawares and try to shield or still him, only to suffer random heart attacks, strokes and the like. 🙂 Not because Rand willed it, but because by that point in the story the Pattern has too much invested in him.

[Sabio]

  On 4/22/2025 at 12:49 AM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

The oath is not against killing.  The wording is that they will not use the one power as a weapon except ...

 

Using it as a means of execution is lawful and well within the range of Aes Sedai hypocrisy/word butchering not to count as using it as a weapon, as is stilling/gentling even though it causes permanent harm and is likely to have an end result of death.   

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To speak no word that is not true

To make no weapon with which one man may kill another

Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme defense of her life, the life of her Warder, or another Aes Sedai

 

It's hard not to view killing someone with the one power as using it as a weapon.  But since she was accused of being a Darkfriend anyone could claim that it why they killed her with the one power.

[DojoToad]

  On 4/21/2025 at 11:47 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

As @Elder_Haman said, what happened we with Siuan does not in any way fall into the definition of Fridging.

 

If one is looking to negatively label the decision to kill Siuan by lumping it into Trope territory, it could be construed as falling into the category of Bury Your Gays, although I don't have any interest in going down that particular rabbit hole because I don't think it's either appropriate or applicable to do so.

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And yet you did so...?

[DojoToad]

  On 4/21/2025 at 11:49 PM, Walker012 said:

 

It is accurate that Laila got fridged.

 

If you would like to add an arbitrary and additional distinction to the term "fridging" which requires that the character have been created solely so that they can die and motivate another character then I sincerely apologize for failing to fully engage with your vernacular and would like to restate my complaint as follows:

 

What the FRIDGE, they killed of Siuan to motivate Moiraine and provide extra emotional depth to her fight with Lanfear and that is a stupid waste of a character and of an extremely talented actress and I DO NOT LIKE this narrative decision!

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You don't have to like the narrative decision.  It's okay.  But leave it at that.

 

Death of a character is often used to rally others in both print, TV, and film.  The chips are down and the protagonists are about to lose.  A character dies (even a main character) and the rest rally to win whatever is happening.  Old as time...

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

  On 4/22/2025 at 10:32 AM, Sabio said:

To speak no word that is not true

To make no weapon with which one man may kill another

Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme defense of her life, the life of her Warder, or another Aes Sedai

 

It's hard not to view killing someone with the one power as using it as a weapon.  But since she was accused of being a Darkfriend anyone could claim that it why they killed her with the one power.

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But it is canon that literal torture - as long as it follows set rules (healing offered, doesn't continue past sun up/down) is not using it as a weapon. It doesn't seem a huge stretch to include a legally sanctioned execution as not being a weapon. While this is a dodgy point, it is entirely consistent with the books in this regard. Remember in the books they could stab her Warder to death just to make arresting her easier. 

 

Also the Oaths don't mention Dark friends another confusing point, especially regarding the Last Battle etc. The Three Oaths are a very awkward subject in book canon, I don't see that the show has done much worse. Possibly with the exception of the S2 finale, which seemed tenuous. 

[Mailman]

  On 4/22/2025 at 1:05 PM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

But it is canon that literal torture - as long as it follows set rules (healing offered, doesn't continue past sun up/down) is not using it as a weapon. It doesn't seem a huge stretch to include a legally sanctioned execution as not being a weapon. While this is a dodgy point, it is entirely consistent with the books in this regard. Remember in the books they could stab her Warder to death just to make arresting her easier. 

 

Also the Oaths don't mention Dark friends another confusing point, especially regarding the Last Battle etc. The Three Oaths are a very awkward subject in book canon, I don't see that the show has done much worse. Possibly with the exception of the S2 finale, which seemed tenuous. 

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How is using a dagger to stab Alric in anyway a violation of the oaths.

It's a dagger used and not the power and to the best of my knowledge we never find out who actually killed him.

The method of torture is not really explained apart from the Ter'angreal that is used that seems to use your own nightmares against you.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

  On 4/22/2025 at 1:34 PM, Mailman said:

How is using a dagger to stab Alric in anyway a violation of the oaths.

It's a dagger used and not the power and to the best of my knowledge we never find out who actually killed him.

The method of torture is not really explained apart from the Ter'angreal that is used that seems to use your own nightmares against you.

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No it is not about the Oaths but it shows what gaps there are in them and the Aes Sedai lax approach to legality. 

 

When the Aes Sedai sisters are interrogating the Black Ajah member, pretty sure there were no ter'angreal used, only the Power. If memory serves correctly, at least. 

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/22/2025 at 12:53 PM, DojoToad said:

And yet you did so...?

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Mentioning something and then immediately moving away from discussing it further is the literal opposite of 'going down a rabbit hole'.

 

Re: the Three Oaths, I'm of the opinion that trying to get extremely granular and precisely parse what does or doesn't count as a violation of any of them is just a waste of time. 

 

The fact that we've seen Aes Sedai do things with the One Power that seem like they shouldn't be able to do based on the Three Oaths is, for me, all the proof that is needed that said actions are not in fact a violation of said Oaths.

 

Having just said all that, though, there is a very simple explanation to justify Alvieren being able to execute Siuan in the way that she did: she (Alvieren) is a Darkfriend herself.

 

 

[SinisterDeath]

Now, I know this season wrapped filming in March of 2024, but I do feel like it was a missed opportunity on Rafe's part to not make a bigger deal about the Red/Blue Divide in the Tower, and the literal war  that happened over Siuan's deposing.

 

There's just something soo elegant about having Elaida being this power hungry Aes Sedia that's infatuated by gaudy gold things, where she makes some truly moronic decisions while in power, that's ironically timely right now.

[Mailman]

  On 4/22/2025 at 1:38 PM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

No it is not about the Oaths but it shows what gaps there are in them and the Aes Sedai lax approach to legality. 

 

When the Aes Sedai sisters are interrogating the Black Ajah member, pretty sure there were no ter'angreal used, only the Power. If memory serves correctly, at least. 

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It is a clear difference from the oaths as its a dagger not the power used.

 

I am referring to the BA hunters in the tower. It is definitely a Tar'angreal one of the sisters has to channel into the device (like a moulded seat) and has to watch what the visions are, it was also apparently the device used on thieves caught in the tower.

 

All the other times i dont think we get a true description of what they do.

[Mailman]

  On 4/22/2025 at 1:44 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

 

The fact that we've seen Aes Sedai do things with the One Power that seem like they shouldn't be able to do based on the Three Oaths is, for me, all the proof that is needed that said actions are not in fact a violation of said Oaths.

 

Having just said all that, though, there is a very simple explanation to justify Alvieren being able to execute Siuan in the way that she did: she (Alvieren) is a Darkfriend herself.

 

 

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Sorry but just saying they can is not a satisfactory explanation. 

 

But if the Aes Sedai in the room know that only a DF could execute her she has just given herself away to all loyal Aes Sedai.

[Mailman]

  On 4/22/2025 at 1:44 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Now, I know this season wrapped filming in March of 2024, but I do feel like it was a missed opportunity on Rafe's part to not make a bigger deal about the Red/Blue Divide in the Tower, and the literal war  that happened over Siuan's deposing.

 

There's just something so elegant about having Elaida being this power hungry Aes Sedia that's infatuated by gaudy gold things that's makes some truly moronic decisions while she's in power, that's ironically timely right now.

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The one thing that confuses me is the meaning of that scene where Elaidia is tricked then rescued and healed by Siuan now.

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/22/2025 at 1:50 PM, Mailman said:

Sorry but just saying they can is not a satisfactory explanation

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It is for me.

 

  On 4/22/2025 at 1:50 PM, Mailman said:

But if the Aes Sedai in the room know that only a DF could execute her she has just given herself away to all loyal Aes Sedai.

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It wouldn't be that outrageous of a thing to do - in terms of narrative simplicity - to make every person in the Hall at the time of Siuan's execution - including Elaida - Darkfriends.

 

  On 4/22/2025 at 1:53 PM, Mailman said:

The one thing that confuses me is the meaning of that scene where Elaidia is tricked then rescued and healed by Siuan now.

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What's confusing about it? Siuan chose to view it as conflict resolution; Elaida didn't.

Edited April 22 by DigificWriter