S3E2:A Question of Crimson - Discussion

[A Memory Of Why]

  On 3/17/2025 at 1:10 PM, Mailman said:

The nattins barrow they layer the weave but I thought they told him the information at the same time there is also a time when the pov is away from the merchant. The additional layers of compulsion were simply to cause Rand to question why so much. I can't bring the other to mind atm. If it's the candle boy then i don't believe we have an indication that she has not built up the memories by telling him.

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Ok, you made me read the scene, which is worrying as can lead to a reread and i have other things to experience. I will be strong this time..

 

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Graendel initially uses compulsion and "dug into his mind" to find out why he's there.

 

Delana was asked to wipe his memories and replace them, a few random things too, as complex as she can.

 

Arangar was asked to do something convoluted and started focusing as if he was laying a thick and complex weave.

 

None of these instances show verbal commands were used.

 

I was also responding to you questioning implanting memories.

 

  On 3/17/2025 at 1:10 PM, Mailman said:

Well there was 23 sitters in the Hall so would have to assume that he dealt with them all, no way for him to be sure who had knowledge of Andor. I would think anything more than 5 or 6 separate compulsions at the same time is big it's more complicated than just simple weaves especially if you are implanting knowledge.

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Why would he need to sort out the sitters straight away, he had plenty of time whilst thr drama unfolded and I doubt they would break the ceremony to demand who he is, especially after Suian and her keeper recognise him. At this point we don't know that he's been around for "years".

 

  On 3/17/2025 at 1:10 PM, Mailman said:

The answer was there Elayne was pleading for his freedom as she believed him innocent, Bryne only suggested beheading if it could be proved he was an assassin so it was never on the table without that confirmation and none of that is unreasonable. I don't see how any of this is a slight on Morgase especially as she choose freedom.

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No, Elayne specifically began her mom not to hurt him. Which as I said implies she is capable of what her advisers were suggesting.

[Mailman]

  On 3/17/2025 at 9:53 PM, A Memory Of Why said:

 

Ok, you made me read the scene, which is worrying as can lead to a reread and i have other things to experience. I will be strong this time..

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Graendel initially uses compulsion and "dug into his mind" to find out why he's there.

 

Delana was asked to wipe his memories and replace them, a few random things too, as complex as she can.

 

Arangar was asked to do something convoluted and started focusing as if he was laying a thick and complex weave.

 

None of these instances show verbal commands were used.

 

I was also responding to you questioning implanting memories.

 

 

Why would he need to sort out the sitters straight away, he had plenty of time whilst thr drama unfolded and I doubt they would break the ceremony to demand who he is, especially after Suian and her keeper recognise him. At this point we don't know that he's been around for "years".

 

 

No, Elayne specifically began her mom not to hurt him. Which as I said implies she is capable of what her advisers were suggesting.

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I don't have my copy as it was destroyed but I am on a reread myself so I am looking out for all the compulsion scenes now to check them.

 

I assumed that he would have to deal with the room because if I was an Ajah head the first thing I would be doing after I left the Hall would be going to my spy network and saying why I have got no information on the royal consort of Andor. And then when my spies start to get information from those close to him and I find out he has been there supposedly for 10 years then things really start to stink. I probably don't jump to the conclusion of it being a forsaken but I maybe start to think a rogue female channeler or especially now maybe a black sister doing something in the background.

 

Morgase could have killed Rand if she thought him an assassin, something Elayne did not believe. Some would also consider imprisonment a hurt or punishment. Morgase could be ruthless but only with cause. Morgase tells the story in the books of an execution she ordered that was later proved false and that it affected her.

Edited Tuesday at 12:07 AM by Mailman

[Mailman]

@A Memory Of Why

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She stood and suddenly Elaynes entire body tingled. Her brain seemed to shiver; she was concious of nothing but the woman's voice, roaring in her ears from a great distance. "You will pick up your things from the table, and when you have replaced them where they belong, you will remember nothing of what happened here except I came thinking you were friends....

Thats the end of the first meeting with Moggy

[Skipp]

  On 3/17/2025 at 11:59 PM, Mailman said:

I don't have my copy as it was destroyed but I am on a reread myself so I am looking out for all the compulsion scenes now to check them.

 

I assumed that he would have to deal with the room because if I was an Ajah head the first thing I would be doing after I left the Hall would be going to my spy network and saying why I have got no information on the royal consort of Andor. And then when my spies start to get information from those close to him and I find out he has been there supposedly for 10 years then things really start to stink. I probably don't jump to the conclusion of it being a forsaken but I maybe start to think a rogue female channeler or especially now maybe a black sister doing something in the background.

 

Morgase could have killed Rand if she thought him an assassin, something Elayne did not believe. Some would also consider imprisonment a hurt or punishment. Morgase could be ruthless but only with cause. Morgase tells the story in the books of an execution she ordered that was later proved false and that it affected her.

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I think what A Memory of Why meant was that Gaebril could deal with the rest of the hall while Suian and Morgase verbally duked it out in front of everyone.  He only had to quickly compulse Suian and Leane at the start of the introduction.

[Skipp]

A few things about the episode that stood out to me;

 

What a glorious casting Nuno Lopes is as Gaebril.  He just oozes charisma in every line and every action.  The performance just embodies the idea of fun step dad in front of Elayne.  He is not quite how I pictured the character from the book but he really really sells it.

 

Ceara Coveney continues to be one of my favourite actors in the show.  She seems to have chemistry with everyone.  The backbone she displayed when confronting Morgase, near the end, was just wonderful.

 

Josha as Rand just continues to get better.  His scene with Moiraine discussing Saidin was just top notch.

 

I must admit the cold open with Morgase shocked me for a solid minute.  While different that my preconceived notions of book Morgase I hadn't really thought on her barely mentioned past.  We hear and see she is a very popular Queen with the people but that is about it.  There is passage or two in the books where it mentions she was ruthless during the succession war but we really get no elaboration on it.  So if you are filming this show and you have just one scene to show that then I think the show succeeded. 

 

Morgase, in the show, comes off as a caring, if over-protective, parent.  She listens to her daughter when she decides to stay but because of the cold open we know how ruthless she is to protect her one and only Daughter.  I am very interested to see how this event ripples into the later story lines.  IE Elayne leaving the tower without notice and potential "slog" book events.

[Mailman]

  On 3/18/2025 at 6:51 AM, Skipp said:

 

I think what A Memory of Why meant was that Gaebril could deal with the rest of the hall while Suian and Morgase verbally duked it out in front of everyone.  He only had to quickly compulse Suian and Leane at the start of the introduction.

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Maybe. By the way I giggled about the word compulse. 

[Mailman]

@A Memory Of Why 

 

Compulsion | A Wheel of Time Wiki | Fandom

 

Also says the weave is delivered then the victim is given a command to follow.

[Figs and Mice]

 Generally a quite entertaining episode...the show is getting better as it goes on (though it is pretty clear they are keeping only the bones of RJ's story and basically writing their own narrative ; probably going to wind up in the same place , more or less)  Not that this is awful in itself : as long as it results in a compelling TV show that is fine - even if a lot of it disappoints many of us who were hoping for something a bit closer to the original.

 

But I really didn't like the Morgase as brutal killer queen opening : unnecessary at best and surely undermines the whole business of a once much loved queen with a reputation for benevolent rule over a happy populace ... until suddenly this is overturned when she falls under the malign influence of Rahvin and acts in a manner that swiftly alienates supportive houses and general population alike .  As others have said ,  looks like a cheap shock scene to inject a bit of GOT into the show. 

 

Gaebril messing with everyone's heads so he's seen as being around for ten years also seems a bit of an unnecessary complication but it is quite a cool idea so I don't have a problem with it. 

 

Expected to see a bit more of Egwene's trip through the Arches ?  Maybe will do so later in flashbacks ?  Or not... I didn't much care for her rudeness to the Amyrlin on the way out either ; but since she was my least-favourite major book character and hasn't won me any more in the TV show I won't lose any sleep over that 🙂

 

I am still in the category of only about... oh , 45% happy with the show (up from 40) but if they continue to improve will keep watching with renewed hopes...

[king of nowhere]

i didn't notice at first, but on rewatching I'm seeing that every time someone new meets "gaebril", they pause for a few seconds... then they act again as if they've known him for years.

those few seconds are the time for compulsion, of course. well done.

[Samt]

In the books, weaves do not have integral verbal or somatic components.  Words and actions are just mental crutches that some channelers developed to aid in forming certain weaves.  Compulsion requires that a command be given, but I wouldn’t jump to the conclusion that this command would necessarily be verbal or audible to others.  A deep understanding of the brain would allow a forsaken to cause the subject to hear the command inside his or her head by touching the right parts of the brain in just the right way.

 

Perhaps this would require two simultaneous weaves, but that should be well within Rahvin’s capacity.

[Wassup]

I missed the comment that Gaebril had been around for ten years.  

 

I was under the impression that the AS would have heard about the Queen's new consort.  I thought Leane not remembering his name was because he was a bit new to their knowledge.

 

I assumed Siuan gave a more than cordial greeting to him because of some type of compulsion being directed at her.

 

However, I am a bit put off by how Siuan is being portrayed in the show, not that I think the actress is doing a poor job.  She just does not come across as such a strong, imposing personality as she is in the books.  I feel like she is a bit more demure than I expect.  Her exchange with Matt regarding the horn is manipulative enough.  But, I felt like is was not as heavy handed as I feel she is in the books when handling others.

 

She is the most powerful woman in the world and is oft treated with minimal respect, questioned, or challenged by many.

[A Memory Of Why]

  On 3/18/2025 at 8:41 AM, Mailman said:

@A Memory Of Why 

 

Compulsion | A Wheel of Time Wiki | Fandom

 

Also says the weave is delivered then the victim is given a command to follow.

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That's interesting, it's a fan wiki but I wonder where they got these specific sounding details.. maybe the anniversary book thing that came out a few years ago?

 

Anywho, it clearly states that "normal" compulsion uses verbal commands. Which to me implies there is other versions of compulsion that doesn't.

 

I am currently sternly pointing my finger and shaking my head at you for making me read something that doesn't prove you're point dude.

Edited Thursday at 09:44 AM by A Memory Of Why

[Mailman]

I just listed those 2 as examples of compulsion. I am fairly sure it's the Moggy scene i quoted where i got the impression that it was verbal commands after opening up the suggestive state.

 

very sorry for making you read. lol

[Sabio]

  On 3/19/2025 at 8:38 PM, Wassup said:

I missed the comment that Gaebril had been around for ten years.  

 

I was under the impression that the AS would have heard about the Queen's new consort.  I thought Leane not remembering his name was because he was a bit new to their knowledge.

 

I assumed Siuan gave a more than cordial greeting to him because of some type of compulsion being directed at her.

 

However, I am a bit put off by how Siuan is being portrayed in the show, not that I think the actress is doing a poor job.  She just does not come across as such a strong, imposing personality as she is in the books.  I feel like she is a bit more demure than I expect.  Her exchange with Matt regarding the horn is manipulative enough.  But, I felt like is was not as heavy handed as I feel she is in the books when handling others.

 

She is the most powerful woman in the world and is oft treated with minimal respect, questioned, or challenged by many.

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LOL I took Leane's pause was becuase Galad was introduced right before him and the whole he's so handsome thing.

 

I agree with the liking the actress but having no respect for the Siuan character, I mean Egwene simply saying thanks for the ring, I lied about staying in the tower and I'm going anyway totally ruined any respect for the Siuan character.  

[Irvyne]

  On 3/21/2025 at 1:01 AM, Sabio said:

I agree with the liking the actress but having no respect for the Siuan character, I mean Egwene simply saying thanks for the ring, I lied about staying in the tower and I'm going anyway totally ruined any respect for the Siuan character.  

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Yeah, I feel like if an Accepted spoke to the Amyrlin like that in the books, she would be serving some SERIOUS penance, probably for years.

The fact that they all just looked after Egwene like, "Oh, that's disappointing, but we won't say anything," seemed very uncharacteristic of powerful Aes Sedai.

[Turin Turambar]

One thing that might explain some of this is how ingrained hierarchy based upon strength in the power is within the white tower. In the books Egwene,  Elayne,  and Aviendha are considerably stronger than any other AS, with Nynaeve being a step above them. So some deference into be expected. Yes, AS v. Accepted is a thing but according to the show rules Accepted are allowed to leave the tower as they wish. So she basically just out lawyered them. 

[DigificWriter]

Egwyne found the loophole in the rule that Siuan was trying to enforce, which shows how smart and savvy she is. There's also not a whole lot, realistically, that Siuan could've done at that point to counter Egwyne's exploitation of said loophole.

[Mirefox]

  On 3/21/2025 at 1:32 PM, DigificWriter said:

Egwyne found the loophole in the rule that Siuan was trying to enforce, which shows how smart and savvy she is. There's also not a whole lot, realistically, that Siuan could've done at that point to counter Egwyne's exploitation of said loophole.

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Deference and respect to the role of Amyrlin was a big deal in the books and it went far beyond following the rules.  How the Amyrlin is perceived and how her authority is treated is a huge theme through the book for various reason.  This scene neutered that.

[DigificWriter]

  On 3/21/2025 at 2:44 PM, Mirefox said:

This scene neutered that.

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No, it didn't, because what Egwene did had nothing to do with Siuan's authority as the Amrylin.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/21/2025 at 2:44 PM, Mirefox said:

Deference and respect to the role of Amyrlin was a big deal in the books and it went far beyond following the rules.

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I think this is one of those things that sort of needed to be 'speeded up' for show purposes. Yes, the Amyrlin was built up more in the books as was the whole culture of the Tower. But I think the writers decided that what's more important for show purposes is development of Eggy's character traits. So it was a way to show Eggy's bold, stubborn, smarts that was dramatic precisely because we know the Amyrlin is an authority.

 

And the scene sort of gets to do double duty in showing how little authority Siuan really has right now. 

[Mirefox]

  On 3/21/2025 at 3:09 PM, Elder_Haman said:

I think this is one of those things that sort of needed to be 'speeded up' for show purposes. Yes, the Amyrlin was built up more in the books as was the whole culture of the Tower. But I think the writers decided that what's more important for show purposes is development of Eggy's character traits. So it was a way to show Eggy's bold, stubborn, smarts that was dramatic precisely because we know the Amyrlin is an authority.

 

And the scene sort of gets to do double duty in showing how little authority Siuan really has right now. 

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Sure, I’ll grant that it does those things.  That said, in the books it is clear that you respect and revere the Amyrlin, and when it doesn’t happen, it is noticeable and a shock. 
 

Further, 

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After the split, there are still some sisters that stay j  the Tower and respect and revere the seat even when they think is obtained inappropriately.

 

Then, when Eggy becomes Amyrlin, she struggles mightily with obtaining respect and reverence.

 

If this is the route the writers want to take, fine, but I hope we don’t have to hear Eggy ever demanding respect and reverence and the rightful Amyrlin since you can apparently deny such with impunity.

 

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/21/2025 at 4:48 PM, Mirefox said:

fine, but I hope we don’t have to hear Eggy ever demanding respect and reverence

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But see, she’ll want it for the right reasons. Not because of institutional inertia, but because she earned it. 

[Mirefox]

  On 3/21/2025 at 4:51 PM, Elder_Haman said:

But see, she’ll want it for the right reasons. Not because of institutional inertia, but because she earned it. 

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Does she, though?  Maybe eventually, but she’s a pawn at first.

 

Either way, it can maybe make sense in the show vacuum but as you can see, it rubbed a lot of us the wrong way because it just wasn’t fitting with the way the Amyrlin’s power has been ingrained in our memories for decades.  It also screams of one of those “style over substance” moments where they wanted to show Eggy as a bit of a badass so they did it at the expense of the Amyrlin.  Ah well.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/21/2025 at 4:56 PM, Mirefox said:

it rubbed a lot of us the wrong way because it just wasn’t fitting with the way the Amyrlin’s power has been ingrained in our memories for decades

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Sure. Totally valid. I just see it as an understandable deviation that will service the ultimate objective of telling Egwene’s story on tv. 
 

But I get why that would rankle. 

[Agitel]

  On 3/21/2025 at 2:54 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

No, it didn't, because what Egwene did had nothing to do with Siuan's authority as the Amrylin.

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I get Elder Haman's comments, but come on, basically telling an authority figure that you just used her and are going to ignore what she tells you to do is just what it is to tell someone you don't accept their authority to tell you to stay. 

 

An Accepted does that in the books and she is literally dragged by her ear to the Mistress of Novices for penance and possible switching and kitchen duties for a month, assuming the Aes Sedai doesn't just tie her up with air and/or switch her there with weaves of air for such flagrant disrespect to an Aes Sedai, let alone the Amyrlin. 

Edited 23 hours ago by Agitel