Season 3 Sneak Peek

[Skipp]

As someone mentioned earlier this fight was incredibly quick. Probably less than a minute in length, two tops.  Between the slow motion, the cuts to other scenes and multiple camera angles for the "cool factor" it is easy to see why so many of the sitters were caught off guard.  Barely able to protect themselves let alone process the fact that this is actually happening, that their sisters of decades(potentially centuries) are devil worshipers. 2-3 sitters are killed almost instantly.  

 

I imagine the Whites and greys would be worried about taking cover and avoid the falling debris.  Both Yellow Ajah members (black and light) immediately start healing when the opportunity comes.  Alanna and Leane both stop fighting when Suian is knocked down.  That number advantage drops quite quickly I think.

[Mailman]

  On 2/23/2025 at 4:23 PM, expat said:

One final point before I shut up.  Why are we analyzing this scene so intensely?  Is our enjoyment of action/adventure movies/series tied up with the accuracy of the fight scenes?  If we spent this much time nitpicking the car chases in F&F, or the fight scenes in MI, or the daredevil scenes in James Bond movies we would find all kinds of silly inconsistencies and physically impossible events.  If we enjoy these types of movies/series, we suspend belief and go with the flow as long as the scenes are interesting and visually exciting. If we don't enjoy this type of entertainment, the nitpicking is a good excuse to use as to why we don't enjoy it, but generally not the underlying reason. When was the last time you saw an action/adventure movie/series and thought, I would like it if only that fight scene was more realistic?

 

Lets use our logic on other parts of these movies/series or on movies/series that invite serious logical analysis.

Expand  

If you want to enjoy the wheel of time on the same level as a story that launches a car into space to ram a satellite then that's fine. 

 

I am hoping to enjoy it on a slightly deeper level.

 

[Mailman]

  On 2/23/2025 at 8:02 PM, Elder_Haman said:

It is used for all sorts of things, I'm sure. The Yellows use it to heal and cure disease. It is likely used to assist in building and irrigation projects (though we don't really hear about that much). But for the most part, as of this Turning, the power isn't put to much use beyond theatrics. It is hoarded and studied and leveraged but not much used because it doesn't much need to be used.

 

To the extent that it does need to be used, it is the Greens that are using it for war and the Reds who are using it for "policing". The Blues use it to remain unobtrusive while they carry out their personal missions. The Black on the other hand, is being trained for just this type of encounter, which is why they can be so effective so quickly. It's shock and awe and the others simply aren't ready for it. 

Expand  

Would really have to ask why you clipped the quote in that way when the very next sentence says

 

What the hell is the purpose of the power in the Tower then outside of the Red, Green and Yellow since they apparently have no actual use for it and are rubbish using it even in defence of their lives.

 

 

[Mailman]

  On 2/23/2025 at 3:24 PM, Elder_Haman said:

@Mailman you entirely dismiss how shocking this attack would be. Most of the sitters would be in shock trying to process how and why women they knew for decades are suddenly using the power to attack. 
 

Responses would be incredibly slow as they try to work out what is going on. Think about it. This starts as a trial for a rogue Red. Only Siuan knows she will reveal Liandrin as Black. The revelation of her as Black alone would be a huge shock. The Mother admitting such a thing exists would be a massive revelation by itself. 

 

Then Liandrin holds the power. The reckless act of a woman caught? What is happening?  “Join me?” In what? Why are those sisters getting up? What are they doing? Are they going to help Siuan? Did they really just do that? Why? Was it a mistake? All of these questions would be banging around in their head - about people they know, like, and trust. 
 

These types of things can freeze even highly trained people (see the Uvalde shooting). Why is it so surprising to you that a room full of women who never imagined such thing (the Black Ajah) was possible and believed themselves to be the world’s greatest power - absolutely untouchable in the heart of the Tower - would struggle for a minute to react appropriately? 
 

 

Expand  

Yes it would be a shock but the first thing I would do when people started throwing the power around as a weapon would be to put up a shield to protect myself while I figured out what was going on. 

 

As soon as the self confessed darkfriend called on her sisters for aid and they then attacked the leader of your organisation with lethal attacks for you not to take any steps to defend yourself almost immediately is just insane. 

 

Even just putting up the shield like Leane did would protect you.

[Ithillian Turambar]

I'm thinking it's probably a segway into letting the audience know that these women are flawed and not all powerful magic machines.

 

Sure they are still seen as this seat of absolute power but even Logain says they are nothing compared to their predecessors. To get Logain they had to sneak in at night.

 

So this shows their weaknesses and probs sets up when they fail again when the full Tower attack happens.

[king of nowhere]

  On 2/23/2025 at 11:03 PM, Mailman said:

Would really have to ask why you clipped the quote in that way when the very next sentence says

 

What the hell is the purpose of the power in the Tower then outside of the Red, Green and Yellow since they apparently have no actual use for it and are rubbish using it even in defence of their lives.

 

 

Expand  

dude, if you didn't understand how much the tower sucks and is useless, you haven't read the same books as i did.

yes, the aes sedai were damn useless, and their whole institution made channeling useless.

 

the reds were supposed to chase channeling men, but were actually doing a really poor job of it, finding only a handful. it's not like they moved out of the tower to actually go searching.

the grees were supposedly the battle ajah, trained in battle... except we never saw any of them training for battle, ever. you'd think they may want to send a contingent to the borderlands, to help battle the trollocs. no, they were stuck in the tower playing politics.

the yellow were devoted to healing with the power. now, if i were them, i'd send a handful of yellow sisters in every major city in the world to actually heal people. you can build a lot of goodwill towards the white tower, and you can screen the people passing in your hospital for potential novices. no, they also holed themselves up in their tower. i suppose they were healing the people of tar valon, at least.

the grey were diplomats. they may have done some good, but it doesn't take the power to do that. they may as well have put someone else to the task.

the blue were politicians, even more so than the other ajahs. that also doesn't take the power, so they may have put someone else to the task.

the white were philosophers. again, no need for the power.

the brown were scientists. doesn't take the power, though extended lifetime may help you get more experience in the field.

 

and in fact, the moment some channelers actually trained in battle showed up - be them damane or asha'men - most aes sedai crumpled like wet tissue paper. even the so-called battle ajah. exceptions are women like moiraine or cadsuane that went adventuring and got some actual combat experience.

 

additionally, the whole way of training is extremely toxic; i couldn't think of any better way to prepare potential recruits for the black ajah than tearing your girls away from their families, putting them in a harsh unfamiliar place, stripping them of friendships and having ambition and climbing the hierarchies as the only thing that matters. no wonder 20%+ of them turned to the shadow.

 

yes, the whole organization of the tower sucked mightily. it had lost its purpose. most aes sedai had no use for the power, those that did use the power did so poorly. that's the actual books, and the show is being faithful to them.

well, ok, most book black ajah were equally poor at battle than their counterparts.

 

anyway, your complains about the white tower are perfectly legitimate, but they aren't legitimate attacks on the tv show, because the books portrays the tower so. it sucks because robert jordan wanted it to suck.

[Mailman]

  On 2/24/2025 at 1:36 AM, king of nowhere said:

dude, if you didn't understand how much the tower sucks and is useless, you haven't read the same books as i did.

yes, the aes sedai were damn useless, and their whole institution made channeling useless.

 

the reds were supposed to chase channeling men, but were actually doing a really poor job of it, finding only a handful. it's not like they moved out of the tower to actually go searching.

the grees were supposedly the battle ajah, trained in battle... except we never saw any of them training for battle, ever. you'd think they may want to send a contingent to the borderlands, to help battle the trollocs. no, they were stuck in the tower playing politics.

the yellow were devoted to healing with the power. now, if i were them, i'd send a handful of yellow sisters in every major city in the world to actually heal people. you can build a lot of goodwill towards the white tower, and you can screen the people passing in your hospital for potential novices. no, they also holed themselves up in their tower. i suppose they were healing the people of tar valon, at least.

the grey were diplomats. they may have done some good, but it doesn't take the power to do that. they may as well have put someone else to the task.

the blue were politicians, even more so than the other ajahs. that also doesn't take the power, so they may have put someone else to the task.

the white were philosophers. again, no need for the power.

the brown were scientists. doesn't take the power, though extended lifetime may help you get more experience in the field.

 

and in fact, the moment some channelers actually trained in battle showed up - be them damane or asha'men - most aes sedai crumpled like wet tissue paper. even the so-called battle ajah. exceptions are women like moiraine or cadsuane that went adventuring and got some actual combat experience.

 

additionally, the whole way of training is extremely toxic; i couldn't think of any better way to prepare potential recruits for the black ajah than tearing your girls away from their families, putting them in a harsh unfamiliar place, stripping them of friendships and having ambition and climbing the hierarchies as the only thing that matters. no wonder 20%+ of them turned to the shadow.

 

yes, the whole organization of the tower sucked mightily. it had lost its purpose. most aes sedai had no use for the power, those that did use the power did so poorly. that's the actual books, and the show is being faithful to them.

well, ok, most book black ajah were equally poor at battle than their counterparts.

 

anyway, your complains about the white tower are perfectly legitimate, but they aren't legitimate attacks on the tv show, because the books portrays the tower so. it sucks because robert jordan wanted it to suck.

Expand  

I never liked the fact that the tower did not support the borderlands in what was basically set up as an annual invasion period vs the shadow. Actually having an annual invasion is also not that great of an idea. If it was basically set up as continual raiding instead, not exposing increasingly rare channelers in multiple smaller skirmishers would have been more believable. You could have had the set up the end of book 1 by simply having scouted an enormous force of shadowspawn and it was too late to call for aid from the tower.

 

The towers power was always heavily on the political side of things in regards to the non channelers of the world and the oaths enforced it.

 

The tower was arrogant and isolationist and made mistakes yes. But when you are viewed basically worldwide as the puppet master behind every decision then claiming they suck is probably going too far.

 

Asha'man men where stronger in the power than woman and multiple Aes Sedai were always sent to capture False Dragons.

Damane in the book never fought the Aes Sedai directly apart from individual captures and the single sneak attack on the divided tower.

 

The Reds remember would only ever find a male channeler if he had the ability inborn, which was rare and even then would likely only find those that had managed to learn some control without a teacher which eliminated 75% of those inborn the ability according to Moiaines numbers. So the numbers of male channelers would be incredibly tiny.

Edited February 24 by Mailman

[expat]

  On 2/24/2025 at 2:54 AM, Mailman said:

The Reds remember would only ever find a male channeler if he had the ability inborn, which was rare and even then would likely only find those that had managed to learn some control without a teacher which eliminated 75% of those inborn the ability according to Moiaines numbers. So the numbers of male channelers would be incredibly tiny.

Expand  

How many Ashamen were there?  Several hundred to a thousand?  While most didn't have the ability inborn, there had to be a fairly large number of natural male channelers that the Reds didn't track down.  In no way could they be considered competent at their job. They made splashy shows when chasing down false dragons, but like the other Ajahs, they mostly stayed in the Tower and played politics.  If they were doing their jobs, the only Reds in the Tower should have been the administrators with a large majority of the rest out in the world trying to sniff out rumors of male channelers instead of sitting in the Tower until someone brings word of a male channeler to them.

[expat]

  On 2/23/2025 at 10:56 PM, Mailman said:

If you want to enjoy the wheel of time on the same level as a story that launches a car into space to ram a satellite then that's fine. 

 

I am hoping to enjoy it on a slightly deeper level.

 

Expand  

Sorry to burst your bubble, but WoT is a fantasy, action-adventure series.  It is not Joyce, Tolstoy, or Steinbeck.  There are interesting ideas in the books, but it isn't intellectually deep.  It has the same entertainment rules as other action-adventure series.  Good, exciting action sequences are part of the expected package, even though these types of sequences generally are not completely logical.

[Asmasur]

Does anyone know the Red sisters knew that Aes Sedai were battling inside the hall? The warders could feel it by the bond and the sisters could maybe feel the one power usage, but how would they know that were attacking each other using the one power? 

[Asmasur]

And regarding the incompetence of the other sitters. Most of it can be attributed to them being taken by surprise. It’s the show’s prerogative to choose the skill level and power of each characters. Siuan and Leanne are skilled fighters despite them being politicians for a long time. The other sitters are less skilled than the ones who are trained to fight. None of this is implausible and I don’t mind the show making these choices.

[Mailman]

  On 2/24/2025 at 3:48 AM, expat said:

How many Ashamen were there?  Several hundred to a thousand?  While most didn't have the ability inborn, there had to be a fairly large number of natural male channelers that the Reds didn't track down.  In no way could they be considered competent at their job. They made splashy shows when chasing down false dragons, but like the other Ajahs, they mostly stayed in the Tower and played politics.  If they were doing their jobs, the only Reds in the Tower should have been the administrators with a large majority of the rest out in the world trying to sniff out rumors of male channelers instead of sitting in the Tower until someone brings word of a male channeler to them.

Expand  

If you could explain to me how exactly they would identify a man who never channels the power that would be great.

 

Are they just running round throwing shields at every single man they see?

 

The only way the Reds can find a man who channels is by tracking down signs of his use of the power. Since the only men to do this would be those with ability inborn that is a small % and then 75% of those would die after only a few uses of the power.

 

The Ashman actively recruited and tested for those with the ability to learn something the Aes Sedai were incapable of doing.

Edited February 24 by Mailman

[Mailman]

  On 2/24/2025 at 3:56 AM, expat said:

Sorry to burst your bubble, but WoT is a fantasy, action-adventure series.  It is not Joyce, Tolstoy, or Steinbeck.  There are interesting ideas in the books, but it isn't intellectually deep.  It has the same entertainment rules as other action-adventure series.  Good, exciting action sequences are part of the expected package, even though these types of sequences generally are not completely logical.

Expand  

Ah the old It's space wizards for children argument.

I'll step out of this line of argument here as I have no desire to rerun all the old apologists for poor writing themes again. If you are unable to differentiate the fast and the furious and the wheel of time in regard to storytelling then we are simply too disparate in our viewpoints to ever come to an agreement.

Edited February 24 by Mailman

[Figs and Mice]

Blimey ...this one is apparently going to run and run...Is it really worth all this argument ?   I tend to agree with expat that it just isn't worth getting excited over some details of an "action" sequence (which we probably haven't seen in full yet) , even if some aspects do appear a little unrealistic. 

 

"Battles" on screen often have to be allowed a bit of poetic licence , no ?  I have generally noted widespread approval of a particular scene already shown - indeed it is often held to be one of the best sequences of the TV show so far. But how realistic is it to expect a woman , not only heavily pregnant but actually about to give birth and suffering labour pains , to singlehandedly dispose of half a dozen well armed and armoured soldiers ? ( She is Aiel so a free pass ?)  But it doesn't spoil my enjoyment of the show...

 

To be honest I have a number of aspects of the TV show with which I am less than delighted ; but nit-picking over details in a scene designed primarily for spectacle isn't something I want to bother with. More interested in how they go forward with the story :  and the way they have chosen to kick off this third season actually has me hopeful that the improvement that was made in season two (with the exception of that rather clumsy last episode !) might flow through to this one.  I'm giving the Sneak Preview a tick 👍

[DojoToad]

  On 2/23/2025 at 3:24 PM, Elder_Haman said:

@Mailman you entirely dismiss how shocking this attack would be. Most of the sitters would be in shock trying to process how and why women they knew for decades are suddenly using the power to attack. 
 

Responses would be incredibly slow as they try to work out what is going on. Think about it. This starts as a trial for a rogue Red. Only Siuan knows she will reveal Liandrin as Black. The revelation of her as Black alone would be a huge shock. The Mother admitting such a thing exists would be a massive revelation by itself. 

 

Then Liandrin holds the power. The reckless act of a woman caught? What is happening?  “Join me?” In what? Why are those sisters getting up? What are they doing? Are they going to help Siuan? Did they really just do that? Why? Was it a mistake? All of these questions would be banging around in their head - about people they know, like, and trust. 
 

These types of things can freeze even highly trained people (see the Uvalde shooting). Why is it so surprising to you that a room full of women who never imagined such thing (the Black Ajah) was possible and believed themselves to be the world’s greatest power - absolutely untouchable in the heart of the Tower - would struggle for a minute to react appropriately? 
 

 

Expand  

The Aes Sedai were trained and weeded out so that those who attained the ring would not pause or falter when surprised/attacked - but would react appropriately on the instant.

 

That said - I agree with you.  They train for perfection but are only human.  The slow start and shock are both reasonable.

[DojoToad]

  On 2/23/2025 at 4:23 PM, expat said:

One final point before I shut up.  Why are we analyzing this scene so intensely?  Is our enjoyment of action/adventure movies/series tied up with the accuracy of the fight scenes?  If we spent this much time nitpicking the car chases in F&F, or the fight scenes in MI, or the daredevil scenes in James Bond movies we would find all kinds of silly inconsistencies and physically impossible events.  If we enjoy these types of movies/series, we suspend belief and go with the flow as long as the scenes are interesting and visually exciting. If we don't enjoy this type of entertainment, the nitpicking is a good excuse to use as to why we don't enjoy it, but generally not the underlying reason. When was the last time you saw an action/adventure movie/series and thought, I would like it if only that fight scene was more realistic?

 

Lets use our logic on other parts of these movies/series or on movies/series that invite serious logical analysis.

Expand  

I think some of us are analyzing this so much because the battles were our favorite parts of the books.  It is what got me through the slog of Faile's Shaido arc, Elayne's throne chasing, Aes Sedai Tower/Salidar machinations, and Perrin's brooding (all the matters is Faile!).  I knew there was another fight coming -  Jordan did that so well.

 

As I said previously, I thought this scene was very well done regarding the One Power fight - though I still don't understand the Black Sisters walking away without killing the defeated Sisters.  For my money, they have nailed the One Power between the tower battle and Rand taking out Turak and his entourage - S3 might be the turning point for this specific area.

 

Though I still worry about melee fighting.  With the exception of 'The Blood Snow' there is still a lot to be desired for the mundane weapons - from their appearance to how (un)skillfully they are wielded.  But I did like that little blip of Perrin in the trailer though I never pictured him in plate armor.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 2/24/2025 at 8:32 AM, Mailman said:

Ah the old It's space wizards for children argument.

Expand  

No, it isn't. This is disingenuous. 

The point being made is that in fantasy/sci-fi/action genres, there are many things happening that are 'unrealistic' or where characters have plot armor or they get rewarded (or fail to be punished) for foolish decisions. As a general rule, we as viewers suspend disbelief.

 

I'll take "Reacher" as an example, since I just watched it last night. Reacher sneaks out of his window on the third story of a mansion, scampers across the roof, shimmies down a drain pipe and manages to make his way off of a well-guarded property without being seen, then manages to get back in the same way, racing the head of security who is coming to check on him.

 

The whole premise is ridiculous. A house full of people will certainly notice a huge man running on the roof and climbing down gutters. Roof tiles would be damaged, storm drains would be bent and would not hold the weight of a 250+ pound giant human. 

 

And that's just a single scene in the show. It is silly? Yes. Is it believable? Not if you spend more than 2 seconds thinking about it. Is it entertaining? Yes. And the same can be said for nearly every show that fits into one of these genres. 

 

 

[expat]

  On 2/24/2025 at 8:14 AM, Mailman said:

If you could explain to me how exactly they would identify a man who never channels the power that would be great.

 

Are they just running round throwing shields at every single man they see?

 

The only way the Reds can find a man who channels is by tracking down signs of his use of the power. Since the only men to do this would be those with ability inborn that is a small % and then 75% of those would die after only a few uses of the power.

 

The Ashman actively recruited and tested for those with the ability to learn something the Aes Sedai were incapable of doing.

Expand  

Moving the goal post here.  Your claim was that there were very few natural male channelers.  I replied that the number of Ashamen showed that there were a reasonable number of natural channelers and you moved to how were the Reds supposed to find these men.  That was always an issue in the book where the Red Ajah never really made much sense.  Once a male channeler was known, any sister could shield them, you didn't need a special Ajah for that. The books never even attempted to explain the mechanics of how the Red Ajah found the men.

 

While I am speculating since there is no book cannon, my imagined mechanics would be the Red sisters traveling the land trying to sniff out rumors of male channelers.  Even if a natural male channeler tried not to use the power, there would be local clues (some inexplicitable events, men going insane) that might indicate channeling which wouldn't reach the Tower.  If the channeler wasn't trying to be a false Dragon, the clues might stay local.  The Red sisters would be looking for these local rumors, investigating the area to see if potential channeling events are happening, and finally investigate the rumored man.  This is a highly inefficient method and would require the Red sister to be spread out across the land to hear the rumors.  Sitting in the Tower until an obvious channeler is shown to them would miss most of the natural male channelers.

[expat]

  On 2/24/2025 at 12:26 PM, DojoToad said:

I think some of us are analyzing this so much because the battles were our favorite parts of the books.  It is what got me through the slog of Faile's Shaido arc, Elayne's throne chasing, Aes Sedai Tower/Salidar machinations, and Perrin's brooding (all the matters is Faile!).  I knew there was another fight coming -  Jordan did that so well.

 

As I said previously, I thought this scene was very well done regarding the One Power fight - though I still don't understand the Black Sisters walking away without killing the defeated Sisters.  For my money, they have nailed the One Power between the tower battle and Rand taking out Turak and his entourage - S3 might be the turning point for this specific area.

 

Though I still worry about melee fighting.  With the exception of 'The Blood Snow' there is still a lot to be desired for the mundane weapons - from their appearance to how (un)skillfully they are wielded.  But I did like that little blip of Perrin in the trailer though I never pictured him in plate armor.

Expand  

The background for "battle" was a two line, off-camera mention in the book when Siuan sent the girls chasing after Liandrin and the other black sisters.  Essentially Siuan told them that 13 black sisters, including Liandrin< stole some power artifacts and killed some people on the way out.  As a TV show is based on show and not tell, a battle could be good TV while an off-camera mention to start a major sub-thread is always suboptimal.  While the "battle" was not book and will require a modified sub-thread, I would make the choice of a cinematic battle over dialogue 100 out of 100 times. 

[Wassup]

The AS trained and weeded out women before giving them the shawl to have the best who could handle extreme situations without breaking. 
 

Two points I think:

 

1) There are several instances of sisters breaking fairly easily in the books that could make you wonder how they earned the shawl. 
 

2) They could have learned offensive weaves early in their career. However, after 100+ years of not using them, how well would they be able to perform in a sudden, shocking event?

[Gudrean]

leaves a few mugs of calming tea disguised as ale sitting on a nearby table...  😁

[Ithillian Turambar]

  On 2/24/2025 at 12:26 PM, DojoToad said:

though I still don't understand the Black Sisters walking away without killing the defeated Sisters.

Expand  

Maybe a deal was struck with the Seanchan. We know Liandrin is in contact with them. She agrees to soften them up. 

  Reveal hidden contents

They agree to attack the Tower, but only if it's worth their while, with lots of bounty available. So, they don't damage the goods too much.

 

[DreadLord31]

These guys just enjoy arguing… 

it was good Tv! 

[Ithillian Turambar]

I'm having a great time!

 

It's fun to talk about all this stuff again 🙂

[Turin Turambar]

If I ain't playing mafia, I might as well "discuss" the show here.

 

I think the BA not killing anyone while they were stunned was just because their priority was escape. I also don't think they were really out very long. Granted killing with the power should be quick and easy and they didn't exactly run out.

 

I'm gonna go with...

  Reveal hidden contents

PLOT ARMOUR