Who is Mesaana?

[Luckers]

Mesaana's proxy was Alviarin. It was Alviarin she was saying she would kill because Alviarin had seen her real face. Shaidar Haren saves Alviarin from the fate by marking her.

 

That situation reveals a few key things. Mesaana likely chose a sister who looks like her to begin with since complex illusions have flaws. Thus she would want a sister who appeared as closely like her in order to limit the changes. Danelle fits that, she has blue eyes, like Mesaana (side not: Mesaana's hair colour is never mentioned), and beyond which is a loner with no friends in the tower, which would also be important.

 

Thus the familiarity, though not close enough for her to recognize Danelle.

 

 

[Hybrid]

Alviarin can't place Mesaana's face because Mesaana doesn't have the agelessness which her disguise as Danelle does.  Thus, the face is familiar, but Alviarin can't place it.

[Sharaman]

True the agelessness can be duplicated.

Where does it mention partial masking of ability? or is it something RJ has said? they could partially shield but I haven't seen any record of partial masking it would be useful only to the forsaken for this one task no other reason. Doesn't seem to add up I can't see why aes sedai in age of legends would need to partially mask ability.

Apart from RJ's statement on this and apart from Mesaana's case, Corlan Dashiva must have used some version of a partial masking. He is a farmer who "learns" how to channel and then "gains" in strength. 

[Luckers]

True the agelessness can be duplicated.

Where does it mention partial masking of ability? or is it something RJ has said? they could partially shield but I haven't seen any record of partial masking it would be useful only to the forsaken for this one task no other reason. Doesn't seem to add up I can't see why aes sedai in age of legends would need to partially mask ability.

Apart from RJ's statement on this and apart from Mesaana's case, Corlan Dashiva must have used some version of a partial masking. He is a farmer who "learns" how to channel and then "gains" in strength. 

 

His body was quite rugged, and not in the handsome way, which deals with that. As for his 'learning' and 'gaining' of strength, RJ stated that you can make it feel like you are weaker. Presumably Mesaana is using the same method.

[Graendals favourite]

I will read this thread for new ideas, but I will just restate my firm opinion that Mesaana is Shevan. I think Danelle and Shevan are the only ones we could "guess" to be Mesaana (Have enough of those right kind of exposure and have not had a pov), however Shevan I think fits better through character, developments in the book and coincidence. Danelle is in the wrong places, and does not gain power, while I think Shevan always acts very much like Mesaana when you think of her as an Aes Sedai instead of a Forsaken. Therefore, I think Danelle better fits one of those colourful fish.

[dholm]

Shevan doesn't fit. Why would Mesaana support talks with the rebels?

 

No, she must be Danelle.

[grump]

I haven't had time to keep up with all the latest theories about some of the major mysteries that RJ left.  But from what I've seen quoted from him , he felt he had left enough clues to solve most of them. didn't he say something to the effect, the answers are simple, just ask different questions?  But on to my purpose in writing just now.  I ran across a site with some far out but semi reasonable thoughts in some of those things.  I pass it to you to look at or ignore.     [YARDSALE SITE REMOVED].

 

Until next time

[Graendals favourite]

Shevan doesn't fit. Why would Mesaana support talks with the rebels?

I need to refresh myself with the details of the matter (of Mesaana), however I think I can answer this.

 

Well, Shevan is a Sitter, and the negotiations are the Hall's, not Elaida's. First off, this offers Shevan a direct route of influence to the rebels. Of course Balthamel has previously been put in place there to help Mesaana's plan for the Tower, however Aran'gar might have become less useful and more a threat later on. Notice how Mesaana seems to have purposefully lessened Alviarin's position, that the head of the Black Ajah not have other authority, Mesaana sent Alviarin to Tremalkin for a month, and whether it had anything to do with the mass suicide it can hardly have been very important otherwise. Futhermore, with both camps suffering from suspicion (well, Mesaana has done much the better job at that), the Tower is constantly being weakened as it is. The negotiations are useful for avoiding a direct conflict, which might have one side winning and thus the Tower uniting. It seems unlikely that the negotiations can reach any conclusion while Elaida stays in Power. If Elaida is toppled, the Tower can unite peacefully, and perhaps a new Amyrlin is chosen from Sitters who supported peace but had not been Sitters when Siuan was deposed. Thus, with Semirhage having arranged for Elaida's abduction or killing, Mesaana has a direct route to the Amyrlin seat on the eve of Tarmon Gai'don. The Forsaken all were very skilled at personal gain.

[Vincemakesitbetter]

Apart from RJ's statement on this and apart from Mesaana's case, Corlan Dashiva must have used some version of a partial masking. He is a farmer who "learns" how to channel and then "gains" in strength. 

 

 

Isn't that different with saidin channelers? Rand tells Taim to grab hold of as much of the OP he can take, but he still isn't sure if that's his real strength, so Dashiva could have everyone fooled without masking his true ability.

Or are my memories fooling me?

[Majsju]

Apart from RJ's statement on this and apart from Mesaana's case, Corlan Dashiva must have used some version of a partial masking. He is a farmer who "learns" how to channel and then "gains" in strength. 

 

 

Isn't that different with saidin channelers? Rand tells Taim to grab hold of as much of the OP he can take, but he still isn't sure if that's his real strength, so Dashiva could have everyone fooled without masking his true ability.

Or are my memories fooling me?

 

That is quite correct.

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

I think you are correct as well, Vince. With men there is no way for them to tell another's strength, just to make a relative guess by how much of the power they hold and whether or not there is a sense of strain. Women can tell the exact potential of other women, even to the point of with novices and accepted who have not reached their full strength yet.

 

That said, it would be easy for Dashiva to blunder about and get through training, but if Messaana kills a sitter who she is wayyy stronger than, it would probably raise questions, seeing as most Aes Sedai reach their full potential within a year of gaining the shawl. However, i always have thought messaana was the either the weakest forsaken, or second after moggy, but that would still put her strength above any AS in the tower, or out of it as well, as Nyn is stronger than moggy and cads, the strongest sister in 1000 years.

 

I always thought that for a woman, they could either sense each others strength, or use the weave of spirit which concealed it, but there was no middle ground. I am willing to concede if someone has better information, but as of now I don't think a method for this 'partial masking' exists, but if she is getting by posing as a sister maybe it does.

 

edit: Majsju confirmed the male argument, so maybe I'm on the right track...

[Mr Ares]

I always thought that for a woman, they could either sense each others strength, or use the weave of spirit which concealed it, but there was no middle ground.

There is an RJ quote saying that you can partially mask strength. Also, Lanfear probably did it when she was wandering around the WT - be a bit awkward masquerading as Else Grinwell and having to explain the super-strength.

[Nightstrike]

Apart from RJ's statement on this and apart from Mesaana's case, Corlan Dashiva must have used some version of a partial masking. He is a farmer who "learns" how to channel and then "gains" in strength.  

 

 

Isn't that different with saidin channelers? Rand tells Taim to grab hold of as much of the OP he can take, but he still isn't sure if that's his real strength, so Dashiva could have everyone fooled without masking his true ability.

Or are my memories fooling me?

 

That is quite correct.

That is not correct. Men can sense strain.

ACoS (A Crown of Swords) - Saidin filled all four men, to overflowing it seemed. Dashiva held almost as much as Rand could have.

 

[Majsju]

Seemed =/= Sensed...

[Nightstrike]

Seemed =/= Sensed...

It "seemed to overflowing" to Rand. He actually had an opinion. If they didn't use all they got, then they'd better have a reason. They didn't have a reason at all. All 4 were filled "to overflowing", according to Rand.

 

So, what are you suggesting? That they all held back, Rand noticed that, and they still "seemed" like they were filled "to overflowing"? Doesn't add up...

 

 

 

 

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

Eggy doesnt sense Lanfears ability, so i thought she masked it while posing as Else Grimwell also. I just figured that a novice walking thru the tower doesnt attract much notice, so any sister she passed by wouldnt really notice if she could channel or not.

 

If Mr Ares has read an RJ quote then I concede and apologize for doubting you, luckers.

[Nightstrike]

Eggy doesnt sense Lanfears ability, so i thought she masked it while posing as Else Grimwell also. I just figured that a novice walking thru the tower doesnt attract much notice, so any sister she passed by wouldnt really notice if she could channel or not.

Else Grinwell had a little channeling potential. Lanfear posed as Else Grinwell, while walking around Tar Valon. This means that Lanfear had partially masked her full potential. RJ also said that it was possible, but that few people knew how to do it. Obviously Lanfear was one of them.

 

Two women can very accurately judge each other's strength just by being close to each other. "Else/Lanny" must have passed several women with the ability. If she had a sign "stronger than any you've ever seen", then she couldn't have walked around Tar Valon as Else Grinwell.

 

 

[Majsju]

Seemed =/= Sensed...

It "seemed to overflowing" to Rand. He actually had an opinion. If they didn't use all they got, then they'd better have a reason. They didn't have a reason at all. All 4 were filled "to overflowing", according to Rand.

 

So, what are you suggesting? That they all held back, Rand noticed that, and they still "seemed" like they were filled "to overflowing"? Doesn't add up...

 

 

 

 

 

I am saying that Rand made an assumption by using his eyes, combined with his own knowledge of using Saidin.

 

Compare it to someone lifting heavy weights. Look at the face of someone lifting half of his absolute max, and someone lifting 95% of his absolute max. You can see strain, you do not have to look beneath the skin and see what is happening to the muscles.

 

 

[Nightstrike]

I am saying that Rand made an assumption by using his eyes, combined with his own knowledge of using Saidin.

 

Compare it to someone lifting heavy weights. Look at the face of someone lifting half of his absolute max, and someone lifting 95% of his absolute max. You can see strain, you do not have to look beneath the skin and see what is happening to the muscles.

Yes, and I'm saying that men can sense strain in other men. Women can judge current strength by just standing close to other women, and men can sense strain in other men.

 

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

You misunderstand me. I was saying she could mask her ability completely and not attract much notice, as sisters see novices as part of the furniture for the most part.

[Elgee]

I very much doubt that, Jaric. I would imagine being aware of someone else's ability isn't something that Aes Sedai have to do deliberately, but more like an automatic awareness. (Note, for instance, the Brown sister who noticed that there was a woman who could channel with Rand, even though Egwene was hidden. Surely she wouldn't have been deliberately feeling for that. It must be like a smell, only it's something you feel.)

 

The absence of it would be noted immediately in someone who should be able to channel, like a novice, accepted or AS. Sure, a few might miss it because they're rushing somewhere and engrossed in something, but I rather doubt Lanfear (and Moghedien, if she's posing as an Aes Sedai) would take the chance that EVERY SINGLE channeler in the Tower was going to be absentminded in their presence.

[Gauntlet]

Not to through a wrench in the discussion, but I think I've found not only Mesaana but possibly Demandred as well:

 

Masuri and Rovair, her Warder

 

1. Similar Dress

Mesaana has been described in three outfits to us so far:

 

LoC, Prologue

"Mesaana's russet silk dress rustled..."

 

PoD Ch 25

"Flickers of bronze silk with a thin border of intricately embroidered black scrollwork showed through."

 

CoT, Ch 21

"...a blue-eyed woman of flesh and blood, garbed in bronze-embroidered green."

 

Masuri has also been described in three similar ways:

 

PoD, Ch 8

"...a slender woman stirring a large stew kettle straightened, knuckling her back as she watched Perrin and the others pass.  A woman in a green silk riding dress."

 

CoT, Ch 6

"Masuri was there, a slim woman in a bronze-colored cloak..."

 

CoT, Ch 7

"Masuri, on the other hand, waited beside her mare with an appearance of patience, spoiled only by smoothing the russet skirts of her silk riding dress..."

 

So we have a few things in common here: Russet silk, a green dress, and a penchant for the color bronze.

 

2. Both tap their lips thoughtfully

Mesaana:

ACoS, Prologue

"A finger of shadow tapped silver lips thoughtfully."

 

Masuri:

CoT, Ch 7

"Masuri had stopped waving her hands about and was staring at the footprints, tapping a finger against her lips thoughtfully."

 

3. Both are mentioned in conjunction with Dumai's Wells

Mesaana:

ACoS, Ch 32

"Even if the Asha'man failed to trumpet their crushing of Toveine's expedition--and she was sure they would crush it, after waht Mesaana had told her of events of Dumai's Wells..."

 

Masuri is one of the nine Salidar Aes Sedai who accompanied Perrin:

LoC, Ch 54

"Except for a Brown named Masuri, the Aes Sedai ignored the Wise Ones entirely at firs, but after Masuri had been rebuffed at least two dozen times over the next few days..."

 

4. Masuri seems to know an extraordinary amount about darkhounds(CoT, Ch 7), and lectures much like a professor would.  Mesaana was also denied a teaching in the AoL(BWB).  Elyas seems surprised that she's run across 7 packs(CoT, Ch 8).

 

5. Masema

A. Masuri and Rovair have visited Masema multiple times(CoT, Ch 5).  This in itself is not proof of much though.  Compare it to the descriptions of Mesaana's activities though: 

"mobs of children destroyed anything that reflected badly on the Dark one and killed people who opposed them."

"Bands of brigands during the Breaking were known as Mesaana's Children because they destroyed everything and anything in their path, like Mesaana had taught the children in her territories to do."(quote: crash p. 1 of this topic)

Masema's rabble have been acting in a very similar manner. 

 

B. Add to this the fact that Masema had been dealing with the Seanchan, who Semirhage was with, and you have two legs of the tripod identified.  It stands to reason that Demandred is Rovair, as he seems to be missing from Masuri's side just before Rand began using the Cooedan Kal:

CoT, Ch 7

"Her Warder was nowhere to be seen, and that had to be the Wise Ones' doing.  Rovair usually stuck to her like a burr."

 

So, what does everyone think?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Interesting.  I'd like it except for one thing -

 

At the Kaffe Klatsch where Cyndane reveals that Rand has the access keys and will use them to cleanse saidin there's almost a fight because Demandred is supposed to be keeping an eye on Rand, and some of the others feel he's dropped the ball because he didn't know about the keys.  They're all displeased with him, some just take it farther than others.

 

A Warder with an AS out in the middle of nowhere with Perrin is not going to be in a position to monitor Rand in the slightest.  Demandred never would have allowed that to happen since he's tasked with monitoring and influencing Rand.

 

Likewise, an AS out in the middle of nowhere isn't in much of a position to maintain control of the Tower, which is Mesaana's job.

 

I wouldn't doubt that one or both of them is Dark, though.

[Beren]

He only has to act as her warder so long as she is around people... How long has she been out of the tower?

[Bob T Dwarf]

That might let him spy a little, but Warders are too far down the food chain to know what's really going on or what's being planned until it's too late to influence the outcome.  Plus Rand isn't going to be influenced by some random Warder anyway.