A better take

[Elder_Haman]

53 minutes ago, Samt said:

I don't have to write them.  These scenes literally exist in the book.  Perhaps the dialogue would need to be altered somewhat because of things they did or didn't include in the show, but the same idea could be maintained.  If necessary, you could add a bit to the dialogue.  At the beginning of chapter 30, for instance, after Elyas says that Perrin should throw away the axe if he ever likes using it, Perrin tries to ask, but can't, "What if I wait and then can't throw it away?"  That could easily be added as a line for Perrin to actually say, maybe as Elyas is walking away and doesn't hear it.  

 

Perrin has a discussion with Raen and says that he would hit someone back if he or she hit him in chapter 25.  This scene actually sort of exists in the show except that Elyas isn't there and the detail is cut (and Perrin doesn't advocate for self defense in the show).  

Then pull them from the books and post them here. 

[Samt]

20 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Then pull them from the books and post them here. 

A.  Not sure that doesn't run afoul of copyright laws.

B.  It would be incredibly tedious to re-type entire sections of the book and I don't have a way to copy-paste easily.  I suppose I could post pictures, but why?

The relevant scenes are in chapter 25 and chapter 30 of TEotW.  Towards the end of chapter 25 and the beginning of chapter 30. As I said, you may have to change the dialogue slightly, but the discussion is there and the point is clearly to give a way to flesh out Perrin's character motivations and conflict.  

[Elder_Haman]

35 minutes ago, Samt said:

A.  Not sure that doesn't run afoul of copyright laws.

Not with proper source attribution.

 

35 minutes ago, Samt said:

The relevant scenes are in chapter 25 and chapter 30 of TEotW.  Towards the end of chapter 25 and the beginning of chapter 30.

Interesting...

The dialogue at the end of chapter 25 involves Raen telling Perrin and Elyas about meeting the Aiel. The dialogue between Perrin and the Tinkers in Chapter 25 was recreated ... in some points verbatim ... in Season 1, episode 3. 

 

The dialogue at the beginning of chapter 30 encompasses two pages in my edition. It is a great bit of dialogue. The true importance of the exchange, however, takes place in Perrin's internal monologue.

Quote

Perrin raised the axe to throw it in the pool, but Elyas caught his wrist. 

"You'll use it, boy, and as long as you hate using it, you will use it more wisely than most men would. Wait. If ever you don't hate it any longer, then will be the time to throw it as far as you can and run the other way."

Perrin hefted the axe in his hands, still tempted to leave it in the pool. Easy for him to say wait. What if I wait and then can't throw it away. '

 

--Robert Jordan, "The Eye of the World" (Second Edition Hardcover, October 2020) ch. 30 p. 441. 

 

The notion that this single exchange between Elyas and Perrin would, by itself, be sufficient to establish Perrin's core character trait is silly. While good, the dialogue has no particular hook, it does not occur at a pivotal moment, or during a scene of great tension. It would be quickly forgotten.

 

Now this dialogue could still find its way into the show, helping to further emphasize Perrin's already established discomfort with violence. After all, Perrin did not have an axe when he met the Tinkers. And he did not encounter the Tinkers while he was with Elyas, so in the show there has been no occasion to juxtapose the Wolfbrother with the Way of the Leaf. 

 

If/when that juxtaposition does occur, it will have additional weight to it given the contrasts that have been established through the first two seasons of the show. This is dramatically different from the books where Perrin reflects internally on this discussion over the course of the next 11 books. In the books, it works. We get to hear Perrin's thoughts. On the screen, it wouldn't work at all. 

[Samt]

14 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Not with proper source attribution.

 

Interesting...

The dialogue at the end of chapter 25 involves Raen telling Perrin and Elyas about meeting the Aiel. The dialogue between Perrin and the Tinkers in Chapter 25 was recreated ... in some points verbatim ... in Season 1, episode 3. 

 

The dialogue at the beginning of chapter 30 encompasses two pages in my edition. It is a great bit of dialogue. The true importance of the exchange, however, takes place in Perrin's internal monologue.

 

The notion that this single exchange between Elyas and Perrin would, by itself, be sufficient to establish Perrin's core character trait is silly. While good, the dialogue has no particular hook, it does not occur at a pivotal moment, or during a scene of great tension. It would be quickly forgotten.

 

Now this dialogue could still find its way into the show, helping to further emphasize Perrin's already established discomfort with violence. After all, Perrin did not have an axe when he met the Tinkers. And he did not encounter the Tinkers while he was with Elyas, so in the show there has been no occasion to juxtapose the Wolfbrother with the Way of the Leaf. 

 

If/when that juxtaposition does occur, it will have additional weight to it given the contrasts that have been established through the first two seasons of the show. This is dramatically different from the books where Perrin reflects internally on this discussion over the course of the next 11 books. In the books, it works. We get to hear Perrin's thoughts. On the screen, it wouldn't work at all. 

Yes, the decision to cut Elyas from season 1 makes it very difficult to develop Perrin.  I don't think I have to work around that when providing a better take.  I would have included him.  

 

In regards to the dialogue with the Tinkers, some of it is included in the show, but by cutting Elyas and not having Perrin speak as much, they make the whole thing unclear.  

 

For the discussion about Perrin throwing the axe away, I would have Perrin speak the italicized part, probably in such a way that it is clear that Elyas didn't hear (maybe Elyas is walking away, like I said in my previous post).  In the book, he tries to say it but can't get it out.  Obviously, that is something you can write in a book but doesn't work on screen.  But it's a pretty small change.  

 

No, these scenes do not constitute the entirety of Perrin's development throughout 8 seasons.  I'm pretty sure I was clear about that.  You asked for a few scenes as evidence.  It's not fair to respond that I've only provided a few scenes.

 

In you want more, Perrin has discussions with Moiraine about Boundless, and various discussions with Hopper in Tel.  Admittedly, wolf discussions become weird because wolves don't really talk.  But Perrin talks to them and we don't really need the wolves to say anything back.  Further, when Perrin gets back to the Two Rivers there will be lots of opportunities to show Perrin growing without needing to say anything.  

[Elder_Haman]

5 minutes ago, Samt said:

In regards to the dialogue with the Tinkers, some of it is included in the show, but by cutting Elyas and not having Perrin speak as much, they make the whole thing unclear. 

I’m not sure what you mean here. I think the Way of the Leaf was well explained in Season One. 

 

If you’re saying that it did not work to develop Perrin, I agree to some extent. I would also have kept Elyas and spent more time with Perrin’s wolf side in S1. I think they slowed Perrin and Mat down in service to the “Who is the Dragon” idea, which flopped. 
 

On the other hand, I do think they have established Perrin’s hesitancy to use violence early and did a better job in S2 of subtly developing the tension between man and wolf. 
 

 

[Samt]

52 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I’m not sure what you mean here. I think the Way of the Leaf was well explained in Season One. 

 

If you’re saying that it did not work to develop Perrin, I agree to some extent. I would also have kept Elyas and spent more time with Perrin’s wolf side in S1. I think they slowed Perrin and Mat down in service to the “Who is the Dragon” idea, which flopped. 
 

On the other hand, I do think they have established Perrin’s hesitancy to use violence early and did a better job in S2 of subtly developing the tension between man and wolf. 
 

 

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was saying.  They explained the way of the leaf but didn't make it clear how it affected Perrin or what he thought about it. And considering that the effect on Perrin and his storyline is the largest impact of the way of the leaf, this is a fairly poor decision to omit.  Mat is pretty slow in the books anyways, but they definitely slowed Perrin down.  

 

Overall, I don't think they have done a terrible job with Perrin in the show.  My claim is that the changes are unnecessary and they could have easily developed Perrin while keeping very close to the timeline and events of the book.  They didn't need to make changes because "the internal monologues made it impossible to develop Perrin without significantly altering the timeline and events."  The books don't really rely wholly on internal monologues to develop the characters and where they do use them the same ideas can be conveyed through acting and dialogue.

Edited April 2 by Samt

[Elder_Haman]

40 minutes ago, Samt said:

My claim is that the changes are unnecessary and they could have easily developed Perrin while keeping very close to the timeline and events of the book.  They didn't need to make changes because "the internal monologues made it impossible to develop Perrin without significantly altering the timeline and events."  The books don't really rely wholly on internal monologues to develop the characters and where they do use them the same ideas can be conveyed through acting and dialogue.

I think this is where we diverge.

Perrin's growth, even in the early books, is mostly internal. While I think they could have stuck closer to the books with him, I still think they needed something to more dramatically establish Perrin's inner conflict. In the books we hear about how he is a gentle giant, always patient, always cautious, always afraid of hurting others because he's so much bigger. All of that is internal. As readers, we understand that he is slow to violence because that's an established part of his character.

 

The show needed a way to dramatize that in a quick way. I would have gone with Brandon Sanderson's approach - have him accidentally kill Master Luhan. But the killing of his wife did the job - it gave you a very dramatic moment that establishes a reason for Perrin's passivity. Viewers aren't going to forget that like they would a few lines of untethered dialogue.

[Skipp]

Considering we are going to see Perrin with the Tinkers in season 3 I think we will get more of his struggle with the way of the leaf.  Possibly more with Elyas, I am unsure if he is expected in season 3.

 

EDIT

 

I should say presumed seeing more scenes with Perrin and the Tinkers.  The actors for Illya, Raen and Aram are suppose to be in season 3 so I would expect them to be in Perrins storyline.

Edited April 2 by Skipp

[Skipp]

19 hours ago, Cipher said:

I think this show is going to canned after the 3rd season.

 

 

The green light for season 4 is already being teased.  Nothing official but we should know in the next 2-3 months based off of their previous announcements.

[Samt]

10 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Considering we are going to see Perrin with the Tinkers in season 3 I think we will get more of his struggle with the way of the leaf.  Possibly more with Elyas, I am unsure if he is expected in season 3.

 

EDIT

 

I should say presumed seeing more scenes with Perrin and the Tinkers.  The actors for Illya, Raen and Aram are suppose to be in season 3 so I would expect them to be in Perrins storyline.

Aren't the Tinkers in Emond's Field during the battle?  I believe this is where Aram takes up the sword.  

[Samt]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

I think this is where we diverge.

Perrin's growth, even in the early books, is mostly internal. While I think they could have stuck closer to the books with him, I still think they needed something to more dramatically establish Perrin's inner conflict. In the books we hear about how he is a gentle giant, always patient, always cautious, always afraid of hurting others because he's so much bigger. All of that is internal. As readers, we understand that he is slow to violence because that's an established part of his character.

 

The show needed a way to dramatize that in a quick way. I would have gone with Brandon Sanderson's approach - have him accidentally kill Master Luhan. But the killing of his wife did the job - it gave you a very dramatic moment that establishes a reason for Perrin's passivity. Viewers aren't going to forget that like they would a few lines of untethered dialogue.

All character growth is internal.  But there are easy ways to show it externally.  

[Elder_Haman]

7 minutes ago, Samt said:

All character growth is internal.  But there are easy ways to show it externally.  

My point is that Perrin's growth in WoT is almost all depicted in his own inner monologue. Thus, the need to create scenes for him to display it externally.

[Elendir]

• If I am doing specific scenes from book, than it should carry same messages and not tell entirely something else.
• Rand and Siuan meeting was dialog, internal monolog wasn't so important. Showing somebody, who hold composure through dialogue, that he was in distress actually isn't difficult. Show did it in other parts of story.
• Not kneeling is hardly sign of arrogance. Especially when Rand stand before already.
• Siuan went from "understanding that Dragon need to be free to grow" to "obsessed with control".
• Rand grow through story as grow obstacles on his path. Not-hostile Amyrlin is far from dificultis which await him.
• Zen Rand acknowledged that Rand who started the journey was important aspect of him. So comment that he need to grow enough to have backbone isnt correct, when his stubbornness was shown from beginning.

Edited April 3 by Elendir

[Elder_Haman]

2 hours ago, Elendir said:

If I am doing specific scenes from book, than it should carry same messages and not tell entirely something else.

Why though? Sometimes scenes are capable of delivering multiple meanings or are better used to serve a different purpose from the ones they served in the books. 

 

2 hours ago, Elendir said:

Showing somebody, who hold composure through dialogue, that he was in distress actually isn't difficult.

I agree with you here. If the purpose of the scene was for Rand to hold his composure as he did in the books, that would not have been difficult to place on screen. At least with a good actor, which Mr. Stradowski is.

 

2 hours ago, Elendir said:

Not kneeling is hardly sign of arrogance. Especially when Rand stand before already.

Agreed.

 

2 hours ago, Elendir said:

Siuan went from "understanding that Dragon need to be free to grow" to "obsessed with control".

Also agreed. The show writers have changed Siuan's character somewhat - or rather, they have changed Siuan and Moiraine's understanding of what they were to do with the Dragon. (Moiraine's having developed over the course of the show as she begins to understand more fully what they are facing).

 

2 hours ago, Elendir said:

Rand grow through story as grow obstacles on his path. Not-hostile Amyrlin is far from dificultis which await him.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here, but you are correct. There are bigger dangers ahead than simply a hostile Siuan. The reason for the change, however, is that they have slowed Rand's growth. They want to be able to depict him growing in his power in a more linear fashion than what Jordan wrote in the books. The scene was thus meant to convey that, powerful as he is Rand is still not able to contend with the power of the Amyrlin. Because he lacks training and understanding, the Aes Sedai are able to force him to kneel. (See where I'm going with this yet?)

 

Further, it gives viewers a more visceral reason to engage with Rand's growing hostility toward the Aes Sedai. In the books, we are told that Aes Sedai are controlling. But it's still often very unclear why Rand is so distrusting of them. None of them ever do anything to even inconvenience him until he is well established as the Dragon. By changing the scene, the writers have given viewers a very memorable foundation for him to distrust the Aes Sedai. (I suspect that they will use Moiraine to illustrate the counterpoint - which is that while the distrust of Aes Sedai is justified, there is madness underneath it that leads to paranoia. Rand shouldn't trust Aes Sedai in general, but he should trust Moiraine.)

 

3 hours ago, Elendir said:

Zen Rand acknowledged that Rand who started the journey was important aspect of him. So comment that he need to grow enough to have backbone isnt correct, when his stubbornness was shown from beginning.

But we've already seen this Rand. His 'stubborn' nature has been on display many times during the show. It didn't need to be demonstrated in this scene.

 

This change is not a bad one, in my opinion.

[king of nowhere]

On 4/1/2024 at 11:51 PM, Samt said:

I don't have to write them.  These scenes literally exist in the book.  Perhaps the dialogue would need to be altered somewhat because of things they did or didn't include in the show, but the same idea could be maintained.  If necessary, you could add a bit to the dialogue.  At the beginning of chapter 30, for instance, after Elyas says that Perrin should throw away the axe if he ever likes using it, Perrin tries to ask, but can't, "What if I wait and then can't throw it away?"  That could easily be added as a line for Perrin to actually say, maybe as Elyas is walking away and doesn't hear it.  

 

Perrin has a discussion with Raen and says that he would hit someone back if he or she hit him in chapter 25.  This scene actually sort of exists in the show except that Elyas isn't there and the detail is cut (and Perrin doesn't advocate for self defense in the show).  

yes, i do agree that those dialogues should have been included, as they were important.

i still think, though, that major changes would have been inevitable anyway. the things you mention would have helped, but they can only go so far. and when condensing the plot, you can't just cut out parts, you have to create something new to move the characters in the same way but less screen time.

finally, some parts of the books needed changes because they were genuinely bad. yes, i am looking specifically at the end of book 1. as poorly as it was performed in the first season, it's probably still an improvement over the book. making people in relationship not seem insane is another step up.

[Skipp]

2 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

yes, i do agree that those dialogues should have been included, as they were important.

i still think, though, that major changes would have been inevitable anyway. the things you mention would have helped, but they can only go so far. and when condensing the plot, you can't just cut out parts, you have to create something new to move the characters in the same way but less screen time.

finally, some parts of the books needed changes because they were genuinely bad. yes, i am looking specifically at the end of book 1. as poorly as it was performed in the first season, it's probably still an improvement over the book. making people in relationship not seem insane is another step up.

Agreed on the relationship part.  Fleshing out Nynaeve and Lan's courtship was a welcome change.  Not that it didn't make sense in the books considering the reader primarily has Rands PoV and he doesn't pick up on it doesn't mean it wasn't there.  Similar to how characters only see Lan as stoic brickface as we generally get the PoV of the 4 out of 5 of the E5 that he presents that as.  The few times we just get Lan/Moiraine or Lan/Nynaeve we tend to see a more emotional side of him.