Sea Folk Bargain for Bowl

[dalic]

So let me get this straight. Mat, Elayne and company find the Bowl. The Bowl is the only way to beat the weather which everyone wants. The Sea Folk windfinders are necessary for knowledge of weaving weather. Not only do they get the Bowl but they get Aes Sedai teachers as well. This seems ludicrous. I know the Sea Folk are supposed to be great bargainers but this is a great deal.

[Angel of Death]

Aes Seadi are dumb. nuff said, :D

 

I think the everyone just wanted the weather fixed so they did what was needed. Also maybe the sea folk didn't care about the weather, and that was there price - there knowledge.

[Siswaiaman]

Wheres a ta'averen bargainer when you need one?

[Jedimuppet]

Wheres a ta'averen bargainer when you need one?

 

Usually leaving Aes Sedai to bargain for him after he leaves some pissed off sea folk who think they were manipulated by a ta'veren.

 

lol..that was pretty stupid how he just up and left..

J

[Guest cwestervelt]

Wheres a ta'averen bargainer when you need one?

 

Elayne and Nynaeve but they (Nynaeve especially)were just too arrogant and anit-Mat to be willing to admit they needed him. That Bargain wasn't the only

consequence. They found the Bowl within days of bending there stiff necks and going to Mat for help. They spent well over a month in Ebou Dar when they could have been there and gone in a week or so as they originally planned.

 

That extended time period resulted in several unncessary deaths among Mat's men that Elayne and Nynaeve are responsible for. The confrontation with the Gholam and Black Ajah would have been avoided. They might even have been able to come and go before Moghedien made her attach on Nynaeve that resulted in some the deaths of the guards and boat crew, so that adds another 4 or 6 or something.

[Mardragon]

On the plus side, it was Moghedien's attack on Nynaeve that caused Nynaeve to break her block though! The price was pretty high, but I don't think the girls could be completely blamed for that as they did not know what would happen (even if they did know there were potential risks from the Forsaken and the Black Ajah but that's pretty much expected in their lives...).

 

As for the bargain with the sea-folk, I always thought that was abysmal. Everyone would benefit from the use of the bowl, sea-folk most especially, since most of their live are governed by the weather. I think it's fair enough that the sea-folk got paid (there were massive risks after all), including keeping the bowl of winds (since it was originally theirs anyway) but the agreement that they be taught by Aes Sedai was pretty abysmal. I think some limited teaching on the part of the Aes Sedai would have been acceptable if done in a respectful environment (i.e. rather than being treated rudely and generally being forced).. but I guess the girls were terrible negotiators.

 

Outside of the above deal, I think an alliance between the various groups of channelers is a good idea and would be of great benefit to the different parties enabling them to expand their knowledge and prevent them getting stagnant and set in their ways, but there should be limits and safe-gaurds against mistreatment.

[Jedimuppet]

On the plus side' date=' it was Moghedien's attack on Nynaeve that caused Nynaeve to break her block though! The price was pretty high, but I don't think the girls could be completely blamed for that as they did not know what would happen (even if they did know there were potential risks from the Forsaken and the Black Ajah but that's pretty much expected in their lives...).

 

As for the bargain with the sea-folk, I always thought that was abysmal. Everyone would benefit from the use of the bowl, sea-folk most especially, since most of their live are governed by the weather. I think it's fair enough that the sea-folk got payed (there were massive risks after all), including keeping the bowl of winds (since it was originally theirs anyway) but the agreement that they be taught by Aes Sedai was pretty abysmal. I think some limited teaching on the part of the Aes Sedai would have been acceptable if done in a respectful environment (i.e. rather than being treated rudely and generally being forced).. but I guess the girls were terrible negotiators.

 

Outside of the above deal, I think an alliance between the various groups of channelers is a good idea and would be of great benefit to the different parties enabling them to expand their knowledge and prevent them getting stagnant and set in their ways, but there should be limits and safe-gaurds against mistreatment.[/quote']

 

I think the reason that the price was so high was that the Seafolk hid the fact they could channel from the AS. THey knew this represented the end as they knew it, and they probably knew they ultimately had to go along with it, but they were going to get whatever they could for it, first.

J

[Guest cwestervelt]

By the time Nynaeve and Elayne negotiated the Bargain, all Aes Sedai relevant to the negotiations, namely, Nynaeve and Elayne, knew the Windfinders could channel. The bad bargaining was purely pigheaded refusal on Nynaeve and Elayne's part to make use of the resources available to them. It was consistent with their behaviour and actions everytime they were left alone.

 

Mardragon: You consider the loss of Mat's men and the rowers to have been worth Nynaeve loosing her block? Loosing the block was necessary for later events, but she had no knowledge of what was going to happen then or later. And she also had know reason to suspect that delaying in Ebou Dar was going to result in her gaining the ability to channel at will.

 

The best her and Elayne could try and claim is that they were Ta'veren twisted, but that would imply there behaviour was out of character, and it was very much in character.

[Siswaiaman]

And the Sea Folk didn't take the lessons with bowed heads either. Remember when nynaeve teaches them assults and shieldings?

 

On the other hand, the athaan miere she was teaching said that she wanted to "defect" and go to the white tower. So the sea folk now have the idea of the tower in their heads.

 

Heh heh heh... mine ... all mine...

[ashaman33]

I think that it was a stupif plot design to have such ajn imbalanced bargain struck. Aes Sedai should not be teachers to the Windfinders. The weather is majorly screwed up, so the Windfinders like everyone else should want to fix that, plus with them getting the bowl back, when all ter'angreal "belong" to AS, they should have been happy with that.

 

What if Elayne and Nynaeve had refused them teachers, would they have said, ok, we don't want the Bowl and we don't want to fix the weather? Absolutely unbelievable and one of those plot threads that not only disappointed me at the time, but the consequences led to a lot of stupid waste of book space that was completely unnecessary.

[cadsuane_2000]

The one thing that I wonder about is the bowl itself.In finding it they found the Kin( and a great treasure they are), but it is showed us something and gave us and understanding of wells.The bowl of Winds stored saidar and saidin - there was no man channeling with them, but the male half of the power was there.Therefore the only source of it was the bowl.Then we see later in the series Cadsuane and her well,and the well that Nynaeve takes and is now using. The Asha Men speak of a change in the power after the bowl is used and the weave for the escape gateway is rapidly disassembled by (Aviendha or Elayne?) I think this is the first hint at what could be done by both halves(saidin and saidar).We view the bargain as lopsided...but the bowl is in better hands with the Sea Folk who understand the weather weaves and their potential to lethal effect.And they have now had a taste of Logain...forceful, courteous but an Asha Man...and quick to learn and devise new ways to utilize the Power.I feel the bowl is a key in the fight...a rosetta stone if you will on how to combine the two halves into weaves of great potential...and how the Aes Sedai and Asha Men can store saidin AND saidar.The Bowl is the only Well so far that we have seen that did store both.It was said in the Age of Legends that all great undertakings had to have both.During this age they call it the Bowl of Winds but I think it is a well...and maybe the greatest one of all

[Guest TigerToe]

The Sea Folk and Aes Sedai are hard nosed conservative snobs, they are learning the hard way to make concessions...the AesSedai did get the short end of the stick. but hey, after a thousand years of high&snobby (respect my autoratah!!) they deserve it.

 

They WOVE their CONICAL caps and now they have to wear them...

 

(has anybody started a CONICAL cap hate/love thread)

[loki redfern]

i can't be sure but i though it drew the sadin in i think they said that when they channel into it the saidar weave were twisting round the invisible to them saidin and they kind of made out it was drawing it in.

[Barnabas]

cadsuane_2000, the bowl of the winds is actually used for its original purpose, more or less, unlike many ter'angreal. i think its moridin who mentions it, but one of the forsaken says that in their time (AoL) all weather was regulated by ter'angreal, and they were amazed at how much change was made using a single one (bowl of the winds). i think in the AoL each ter'angreal only had one user, he controlled the weather in a certain area, and the use of a circle in this time allowed it to have a larger effect then previously. im not sure where it drew saidin from, possibly nearby channelers? but i think the reason channeling is weird in the area is just residual effects from the use of sadair/saidin in the area, and "strands" as such are left, which impacts any channeling nearby

[dalic]

i was under the impression that some ter'angreal were made to draw directly on the Power. that is why there are ter'angreal that can work with regular people.

[Mardragon]

Mardragon: You consider the loss of Mat's men and the rowers to have been worth Nynaeve loosing her block?

Hardly- I was just making the point that though bad things happen something good did come out of it (although I agree the price was way to high). Ironically by loosing her block, she might have ended up saving many more men's lives in the future however. She was the one who went on to aid Rand in cleansing saidin.

 

I do agree that Elayne and Nynaeve were much too arrogant and stubborn in the way they treated Matt and not bringing him in sooner. I do find the attitudes of those two very irritating, and I was glad when Birgitte and Aviendha rebuked them for it (especially considering the way they, and Egwene treated Mat when he helped rescue them from the Stone).

 

Whether or not their delay makes them responsible for the deaths is arguable since we don't know what the course of events would have been if Mat had been brought into their schemes sooner. Bear in mind that taveren can twist chance for bad as well as good. I agree they probably would have gotten the bowl quicker but we don't know that the black Ajah and the forsaken might not have been 'drawn in' to the events earlier too. Mat's luck might have given them an edge but it never kept him out of trouble.

[trakand_01]

On the plus side, it was Moghedien's attack on Nynaeve that caused Nynaeve to break her block though!  The price was pretty high, but I don't think the girls could be completely blamed for that  as they did not know what would happen (even if they did know there were potential risks from the Forsaken and the Black Ajah but that's pretty much expected in their lives...).

 

Was it? I think i mis-read, I thought it was something to do with Lan reappearing, that caused her to lose her block. I guess the events all mingle into one really.

[aevogt]

Nyneave loses her block when she surrenders completely, seconds before she drowns.  It was her inability to completely surrender to the power, because of her fear of it's uses, that created her block in the first place.

[Tyrell]

There are other ter'angreal that draw on Saidin, they don't store it though, nor does the bowl. The bowl was designed specifically for controling the weather.

[avacraft]

The one thing that I wonder about is the bowl itself.In finding it they found the Kin( and a great treasure they are), but it is showed us something and gave us and understanding of wells.The bowl of Winds stored saidar and saidin - there was no man channeling with them, but the male half of the power was there.Therefore the only source of it was the bowl.Then we see later in the series Cadsuane and her well,and the well that Nynaeve takes and is now using. The Asha Men speak of a change in the power after the bowl is used and the weave for the escape gateway is rapidly disassembled by (Aviendha or Elayne?) I think this is the first hint at what could be done by both halves(saidin and saidar).We view the bargain as lopsided...but the bowl is in better hands with the Sea Folk who understand the weather weaves and their potential to lethal effect.And they have now had a taste of Logain...forceful, courteous but an Asha Man...and quick to learn and devise new ways to utilize the Power.I feel the bowl is a key in the fight...a rosetta stone if you will on how to combine the two halves into weaves of great potential...and how the Aes Sedai and Asha Men can store saidin AND saidar.The Bowl is the only Well so far that we have seen that did store both.It was said in the Age of Legends that all great undertakings had to have both.During this age they call it the Bowl of Winds but I think it is a well...and maybe the greatest one of all

 

Um, the bowl didn't store Saidin, it just tapped into it.  There are some Ter'Angreal that don't require someone to channel into them so obviously Ter'Angreal can channel the power.  The bowl isn't a well for Saidin or Saidar. 

[Darth_Andrea]

anyone ever think this whole thing could simply have been Matt's fault? He's not as strong at bending other life threads as Rand but he dose just by being there. So combine everything that did happen and take into account all the later stuff then recalculate those later events if what happened didn't. If the wonder girls had gone alone they very possiably might have gotten the bowl made a much simpler deal use it and left in just a few days. So everyone just look at Matt raise a eye brow shake your head and say "Damned Ta'averen!"

 

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]

[BrainFireBob]

On Nynaeve and Elayne's side- the Bowl and strong channellers to increase the power of the circle.

 

On the Atha'an Miere's side- exposing their weather-weaves to high strength and therefore quick-learning channellers.

 

That's why the Aes Sedai had to provide teachers. Knowledge for knowledge- it's not an unreasonable bargain. The fact that the Aes Sedai didn't learn anything useful with it being done right under their noses is not the Atha'an Miere's fault.

[Zachary]

Wheres a ta'averen bargainer when you need one?

 

Elayne and Nynaeve but they (Nynaeve especially)were just too arrogant and anit-Mat to be willing to admit they needed him.  That Bargain wasn't the only

consequence.  They found the Bowl within days of bending there stiff necks and going to Mat for help.  They spent well over a month in Ebou Dar when they could have been there and gone in a week or so as they originally planned.

 

That extended time period resulted in several unncessary deaths among Mat's men that Elayne and Nynaeve are responsible for.  The confrontation with the Gholam and Black Ajah would have been avoided.  They might even have been able to come and go before Moghedien made her attach on Nynaeve that resulted in some the deaths of the guards and boat crew, so that adds another 4 or 6 or something.

 

The best her and Elayne could try and claim is that they were Ta'veren twisted, but that would imply there behaviour was out of character, and it was very much in character.

 

Not so much Ta'averen twisted as pattern twisted. Mat had to be there when the Seanchan came. Losing a few men was well worth it, as the most likely result of not meeting Tuon that way would have resulted in Mat's death, perhaps even by Tuon's orders.

 

And I think that answers the first quote as well. Mat had to be in Ebou Dar when the Seanchan came.