Why More Episodes Isn’t the Answer

[DreadLord31]

I’ve heard a bunch of respected commentators say that if Amazon would just give them more time they’d do a better job. Here’s why I don’t think that is the case: 

 

#1. They did a better job in S2 than S1 with choosing a more compelling season theme line… rather than “Who is the Dragon?” It seemed to me that it was “Who is a friend & who is a Darkfriend?” 
But still - they didn’t deliver on that theme. There are easy ways in the time frame they are given to do that. You A) need to cut Lan pissing on a tree & keep your Ingtar scene. B) Cut the whole Moiraine’s family plot line & lean into your love of Nynaeve/Egwene…give us more follow through on their response to Liandrins betrayal, what happened with the Yellow sister, ect… 

 

#2: other than Blood Snow, they can’t give us good action sequences; the editing or lighting or both is terrible. And they write silly decisions like Lan catching an arrow and that archer ceasing to keep firing. 
 

#3: One Piece showed me that good writers maximize the time they’re given. WoT wastes scenes. Sometime they deliver (particularly with the Forsaken), but the writing is so inconsistent. 

[Pandemonium]

That arrow scene with Lan was a real gym.  I am planning on making a thread on all the stupid decisions in season 2 that make no sense and that arrow moment was tops 

 

That said, I think they do need more time to develop each scene and give each character more life.  But if they can't maximize the time they have, then would that help?

[Samt]

I’ve used the analogy before, but I think it works so I’ll repeat it. A student parties and skips class all semester and then complains about not having enough time to study the night before finals.  That is Rafe Judkins complaining about not getting more episodes.

 

It’s important to remember that he didn’t get seven episodes in and then get told to finish it in the next episode.  Regardless of what he wanted, he always knew the number was 8.  But through the middle of both seasons, things really drag.  He needed to plan for an 8 episode arc from the beginning, knowing that was what he was getting. He seems to have planned for 12 and then been forced to cut it at 8, which is a completely unforced error.

[king of nowhere]

2 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

#3: One Piece showed me that good writers maximize the time they’re given. WoT wastes scenes. Sometime they deliver (particularly with the Forsaken), but the writing is so inconsistent. 

one piece follows exactly 2 story lines: the main protagonists, and coby+garp. you can't really draw comparisons on that

[fra85uk]

23 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

one piece follows exactly 2 story lines: the main protagonists, and coby+garp. you can't really draw comparisons on that

Technically, the first books of WoT also follow a small number of storylines and should have been the easier to adapt with some tweaks here and there.

I really feel we should stop pretending that some changes were made because they had to,  while it is clear that they actually wanted to.

 

By the way, this is perfect legitimate. I can argue that taking an adventuresque fantasy and transform it in an almost actionless drama in expansive costumes is not what many fans would like to see but they are perfectly entitled to follow that route, just I am not obliged to buy that it was the only possible route.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

2 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

Technically, the first books of WoT also follow a small number of storylines and should have been the easier to adapt with some tweaks here and there.

I really feel we should stop pretending that some changes were made because they had to,  while it is clear that they actually wanted to.

 

By the way, this is perfect legitimate. I can argue that taking an adventuresque fantasy and transform it in an almost actionless drama in expansive costumes is not what many fans would like to see but they are perfectly entitled to follow that route, just I am not obliged to buy that it was the only possible route.

I do not think that anyone is arguing that these specific changes had to be made. But changes had to be made. I don't pretend to understand how you write a TV series, but I am pretty sure it more complicated than simply abbreviating the existing story. 

 

That said there obviously some directions were deliberately chosen. The greater emphasis on Moiraine for example, is not something that was forced (such as by there needing to be a limited number of locations, active characters, Barney leaving, Thom and Suian having scheduling conflicts due to Corona delays) but something that was chosen, and could well have been part of the reason that project was funded in the first place, due to the actress cast. This also meant Moiraine and Suian were aged, and several other changes. 

 

One of the things I have liked so far is that they have not let the changes snowball into a completely different direction. While some parts of the plot are a little shaky, they keep returning to the main plot as opposed to following their own tangents. This will probably become more difficult the further into the plot we go and the effects of the changes become more extensive (e.g., Renna and Sita not being able to be featured later), but I hope they have the arcs planned out. If they have, that could be another reason why re-writing the earlier seasons due to delays, COVID and actors dropping out would be awkward, as they still have to get to the same points.

[Rhaze]

Yep... "if we had 2 more episodes we could have flushed out what the Horn really is and how important it is"...

 

meanwhile Rafe gets 2 more episodes and we get to see Lan taking a dump while talking to Alanna.

[Mirefox]

Simply put, more run time does not fix the writing problems.

 

Could a story of this scope use more screen time?  Probably.  Is that the solution for this team?  No.

[Skipp]

2 hours ago, Rhaze said:

Yep... "if we had 2 more episodes we could have flushed out what the Horn really is and how important it is"...

 

meanwhile Rafe gets 2 more episodes and we get to see Lan taking a dump while talking to Alanna.

So very important that it disappears for 12 books.

[fra85uk]

7 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I do not think that anyone is arguing that these specific changes had to be made. But changes had to be made. I don't pretend to understand how you write a TV series, but I am pretty sure it more complicated than simply abbreviating the existing story. 

 

 

Of course, It is not only abbreviating the story but also not changing the tone, the genre, the core of the story. Novel scenes can happen and they are welcome (flashbacks on the Forsaken, stuff we did not see about beloved characters etc etc) but they still should convey key points within the source material, just differently from it (instead we get "oh my bond").  Otherwise, why not just invent something  completely new? (answer: they are not talented to do that)

 

For the rest, I am sorry to say but Rosamund Pike larger role is one of the worst thing of the show at this point (as her storylines).

I would like to be as positive as you but with 2/8(?) seasons already out I find difficult to imagine course-corrections. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

10 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

 

Of course, It is not only abbreviating the story but also not changing the tone, the genre, the core of the story. Novel scenes can happen and they are welcome (flashbacks on the Forsaken, stuff we did not see about beloved characters etc etc) but they still should convey key points within the source material, just differently from it (instead we get "oh my bond").  Otherwise, why not just invent something  completely new? (answer: they are not talented to do that)

 

For the rest, I am sorry to say but Rosamund Pike larger role is one of the worst thing of the show at this point (as her storylines).

I would like to be as positive as you but with 2/8(?) seasons already out I find difficult to imagine course-corrections. 

Who said I was positive? There is a boatload I don't like about the series. However, I try to remain objective and limit my stupidity to minimum. I would recommend the same to everyone else. 

 

And I would agree with you that for all I Iike Ms Pikes, this is not her best work and relies far too heavily on her looking wordlessly at people over and over again. However it is what it is, and complaining about such basic things seems pointless. Overall, I would say the casting is good, imo, though I wish they would direct Perrin better. Too often it seems that he is told to look as gormless as possible, which seems a shame.

 

I am grateful for this adaptation, and I will enjoy what I can, and I am glad they are not inventing something new. 

Edited November 4, 2023 by HeavyHalfMoonBlade

[fra85uk]

17 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Who said I was positive? There is a boatload I don't like about the series. However, I try to remain objective and limit my stupidity to minimum. I would recommend the same to everyone else. 

 

And I would agree with you that for all I Iike Ms Pikes, this is not her best work and relies far too heavily on her looking wordlessly at people over and over again. However it is what it is, and complaining about such basic things seems pointless. Overall, I would say the casting is good, imo, though I wish they would direct Perrin better. Too often it seems that he is told to look as gormless as possible, which seems a shame.

 

I am grateful for this adaptation, and I will enjoy what I can, and I am glad they are not inventing something new. 

In this sense, you are more positive (than me I was intending not in absolute value). In my opinion they have already invented something new (and quite bad in some cases), call it another turning of the wheel if you want.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

2 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

In this sense, you are more positive (than me I was intending not in absolute value). In my opinion they have already invented something new (and quite bad in some cases), call it another turning of the wheel if you want.

Fair enough 🙂

[Pukel-man]

It isn't even about changes from the books or picking & choosing what to cut or what to include. It's just about creating a compelling story for the viewers. That isn't dependent on having enough episodes or long enough episodes.  The writers aren't there. Some shows are better than others, that's just how it is.

[Scarloc99]

On 11/4/2023 at 10:10 PM, fra85uk said:

 

Of course, It is not only abbreviating the story but also not changing the tone, the genre, the core of the story. Novel scenes can happen and they are welcome (flashbacks on the Forsaken, stuff we did not see about beloved characters etc etc) but they still should convey key points within the source material, just differently from it (instead we get "oh my bond").  Otherwise, why not just invent something  completely new? (answer: they are not talented to do that)

 

For the rest, I am sorry to say but Rosamund Pike larger role is one of the worst thing of the show at this point (as her storylines).

I would like to be as positive as you but with 2/8(?) seasons already out I find difficult to imagine course-corrections. 

Squeezing 3 books into 2 seasons was always going to be an effort, there are elements of book 2 and 3 in season 1, also getting across the intricate details of things like the magic system is also hard to do. No we don't want long exposition, there is nothing worse the a character spouting out a load of nonsensical mush to explain something, so I think as readers we have to wait and see as things are developed and explained and revealed throughout the series rather then all being dropped from a height in season 1 and 2. 

I am loving Moiraine, this version of Moirane is so so so much better then the book version, she is not the all powerful Gandalf character that RJ then had to nerf in the books to make her more vulnerable. I loved seeing how becoming an Aes Sedai can impact relationships with normal family and friends, we see very little of that if any at all in the books. I also loved seeing a vulnerable side to her. The fact is that in the books we have no idea what she was doing during TGH, other then a vague explanation that she was fighting the Seanchan trying to save sisters. It also all fed into the story of Rand, we see that female channellers can't see male weaves because she spent all that time around them and they never saw the shield. Rand then can see it. 

This version of Lan is also the version I see later on in the books, the version that RJ changed him into, with self doubt and a fatalism, we saw that Moiraine dropped the bond without him knowing before she went off into the blight probably to try and save him, it wasn't hidden or covered up, then she rebonded him in season 2. So the Lan who took on 3 Fades was unbonded, no super sayan powers. 
 

[Scarloc99]

On 11/5/2023 at 12:39 AM, Pukel-man said:

It isn't even about changes from the books or picking & choosing what to cut or what to include. It's just about creating a compelling story for the viewers. That isn't dependent on having enough episodes or long enough episodes.  The writers aren't there. Some shows are better than others, that's just how it is.

I mean all my non book loving friends where edge of seat for season 2, so I would argue the writers did that. 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Scarloc99

[Shawlee]

On 11/3/2023 at 8:05 AM, DreadLord31 said:

A) need to cut Lan pissing on a tree & keep your Ingtar scene

 

This bothers me so much. Every time I think about it, blind rage flares up in me. 

 

Al'Lan Mandragoran, Aan'allein pissing on a tree. Thanks for making my favorite hero  into a joke, thank you so much Rafe.

[Scarloc99]

10 minutes ago, Shawlee said:

 

This bothers me so much. Every time I think about it, blind rage flares up in me. 

 

Al'Lan Mandragoran, Aan'allein pissing on a tree. Thanks for making my favorite hero  into a joke, thank you so much Rafe.

Why was this such a big deal, it showed how closely he was being watched, it showed that he couldn’t even get away to do that, but it also, for once, showed a bit of mundane humanity. The critic reviews I read about this very scene absolutely loved it because you never see anything like that in fantasy. 

 

And which lan are you talking about? The clear Aragorn ripoff that RJ made him in books 1-3, or the torn, flawed, reluctant leader he became once RJ realized he had enough books to write him properly? Lan in the TV show, for me at least, matches that later Lan very closely, which is what we should have at the start of an arc. He will become the lab you recognize from EOTW but good TV gives him an arc to get there. 

Edited November 13, 2023 by Scarloc99

[Yamezt]

2 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

Why was this such a big deal, it showed how closely he was being watched, it showed that he couldn’t even get away to do that, but it also, for once, showed a bit of mundane humanity.

I saw it as foreshadowing (if certain events come to pass) - showing that Alanna has no respect of personal space/boundary.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Yamezt

[king of nowhere]

7 hours ago, Shawlee said:

 

This bothers me so much. Every time I think about it, blind rage flares up in me. 

 

Al'Lan Mandragoran, Aan'allein pissing on a tree. Thanks for making my favorite hero  into a joke, thank you so much Rafe.

Yes, obviously lan is too manly to pee. Do we ever see him peeing in the books? No, then it's canon, lan does not need to pee. Probably when he needs to relieve itself he slices out his bladder with his sword, empties it, and sew it back every time. 

He does the same with his intestines whenever he needs to take a dump, except he has a servant handling his guts because he's too badass to handle sh#t in any way

Edited November 13, 2023 by king of nowhere

[Scarloc99]

6 hours ago, Yamezt said:

I saw it as foreshadowing (if certain events come to pass) - showing that Alanna has no respect of personal space/boundary.

This as well, something I hadn’t thought about. 

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

Yes, obviously lan is too manly to pee. Do we ever see him peeing in the books? No, then it's canon, lan does not need to pee. Probably when he needs to relieve itself he slices out his bladder with his sword, empties it, and sew it back every time. 

He does the same with his intestines whenever he needs to take a dump, except he has a servant handling his guts because he's too badass to handle sh#t in any way

I mean is this what people mean when they say they love Lan because he “gets sh#t done” 🙂 

[bkwrm79]

I think Season 1's biggest problem was being too compacted.

 

Season 2 needed more episodes, but that's a contributing issue. The main problem with Season 2 is completely changing Rand's storyline, for something not nearly as good as the original.