Season 2 finale was so cringy, how are you all not upset? (Spoilers)

[RitualM]

It hurt me on so many levels. The ONLY good thing about the entire episode was the reveal of Moghediean, that scene was amazing.

 

Was s2 better than s1? In some ways. But that's like saying getting punched in the face is better than getting hit with a sledge hammer. Neither is good.

 

I want to focus on two of the most awful parts, at least to me.

 

 The worst of the worst was Mat blowing the horn. He runs into a line of soldiers just standing on a rooftop waiting for no reason while the city is in chaos? That might be one of the laziest pieces of writing and direction I've ever seen in my life.

 

Rand still feels like a side character, and his lame dragon reveal with moraine was so awful and cringy, his "fight" with ishameal was equally as cringy. Where is the battle in the sky? The clash of thousands year old forsaken with a legendary  dragon reborn to proclaim his rebirth. It was just fireballs. Grand forsaken with thousands of years of one power knowledge and all he can think to do is throw fireballs at egwenes shield and wait? Sweet Jesus that was painfully dumb.

They should have had a battle, a real battle where rand actually shows a little power  and the finale should have been the culmination of power interacting to light the sky up when Ishmael loses illuminating rand and the fire falling down in the vague shape of a dragon. Not moraine making some lame dragon out of fire for him. Rand still hasn't done a damn thing.

 

At this point I think I have to be done with the show. This is not just a case of its a different turning of the wheel. It's not just because it is divergent from the books. It's just bad writing, and it hurts me cus the source material is so rich and vast that it took some serious effort to make it so lame.

 

Rafe should be ashamed and any fan of the books should be outraged at how poorly this was done.

 

Doubt I'll bother with s3.

 

I think I need to reread the series again to get the sour taste of the show out of my mouth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by RitualM

[Elder_Haman]

I’m not upset because I didn’t find it cringy at all. I thoroughly enjoyed season 2 and think it has been great television. 
 

It is substantially different from the books, which doesn’t bother me in the least. It’s a new take that I’m enjoying. And the books are still sitting on my shelves waiting to be read again whenever I want. 

[RitualM]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

I’m not upset because I didn’t find it cringy at all. I thoroughly enjoyed season 2 and think it has been great television. 
 

It is substantially different from the books, which doesn’t bother me in the least. It’s a new take that I’m enjoying. And the books are still sitting on my shelves waiting to be read again whenever I want. 

It doesn't bother you that the writers took one of the best magic systems in the genre and relegated the opportunity of a proper battle between 2 powerful one power wielders it to a lame fireball fight on a rooftop and a lame walk up to him and stab him? Its almost as bad as the death of the night king in GOT.

 

The "climax" of a season was the big baddie standing there literally just throwing fireballs at a shield? The thousands year old forsaken with more knowledge in the one power than then entire white tower couldn't  think of anything else to do with the almost limitless possibilities of the power? Why not an actual battle befitting the rivalry ? It was so lame and anticlimactic. 

 

The scene with Mat didn't bother you either? Oh running on a roof all alone while the city burns, oh wait look here's 30 guys for no reason whatsoever....... the character show and overall story would have benefitted far more if the horn was blown during an actual battle between the whitecloaks, and seanchan not some 1v30 nonsensical standoff on a roof with lame slowmo, and little to know build up as to the significance of the event in the overall story. We haven't even spoken of ANY of the hero's other than Uno so they mean nothing to anyone but a reader. Even though we have the seanchan and we spoke of the history of the 3 oaths we have heard Hawkwings name what, once as a throwaway line? Hes supposed to command the heros.... hes the literal reason the seanchan exist.... 

 

Even if I hadn't read the books and could ignore how much significant content and context they ignored, the 2 scenes I pointed on in my post are just examples bad writing and bad directing imho regardless of its faithfulness to the source material. 

Edited October 7, 2023 by RitualM

[Elder_Haman]

Nope. None of that bothers me. 

[RitualM]

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Nope. None of that bothers me. 

wish i could have such low expectations..... guess i need to drink more before i watch 

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, RitualM said:

wish i could have such low expectations..... guess i need to drink more before i watch 

It’s not that my expectations are low. It’s that I genuinely enjoy the show. I did not enjoy season 1 as much. I really liked season 2. 
 

People are allowed to like different things. 

[Mirefox]

29 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

It’s not that my expectations are low. It’s that I genuinely enjoy the show. I did not enjoy season 1 as much. I really liked season 2. 
 

People are allowed to like different things. 

You and I are often at odd on this show and it is pretty clear that we just don’t understand each other.  I’m curious about something, though.  Set aside the fact that you’re enjoying the show - that’s completely subjective and you’re completely justified in liking it as much as others are justified in not liking it.  Setting that aside, as a book fan, are you disappointed that so much of the story is being changed, rewritten, or made up for the show?  You can be and still like the show.  I’m genuinely curious because we definitely don’t get each other.

 

The bottom line for me is that I think Robert Jordan is an immeasurably better writer than Rafe Judkins and his team of inters and wherever I see them changing the story or making their own things up it melts my brain as how much lesser it is than the source material.  The show is not made in Jordan’s voice, it is made in Judkins’s, and it is worse off for it.

 

Let me be clear that Judkins is the figurehead but I wouldn’t be surprised at all if some of the changes came from some suits in an Amazon board room who wanted to make WoT the next GoT.

[king of nowhere]

48 minutes ago, RitualM said:

It doesn't bother you that the writers took one of the best magic systems in the genre and relegated the opportunity of a proper battle between 2 powerful one power wielders it to a lame fireball fight on a rooftop and a lame walk up to him and stab him? Its almost as bad as the death of the night king in GOT.

 

The "climax" of a season was the big baddie standing there literally just throwing fireballs at a shield? The thousands year old forsaken with more knowledge in the one power than then entire white tower couldn't  think of anything else to do with the almost limitless possibilities of the power? Why not an actual battle befitting the rivalry ? It was so lame and anticlimactic. 

you know, in the books 2 powerful one power wielders had a fight sword against quartestaff instead, was that any better?

Quote

We haven't even spoken of ANY of the hero's other than Uno so they mean nothing to anyone but a reader

so, you propose that the show goes out of its way to characterize every individual hero of the horn?

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by king of nowhere

[Tim the Bald]

3 hours ago, RitualM said:

It hurt me on so many levels. The ONLY good thing about the entire episode was the reveal of Moghediean, that scene was amazing.

 

Was s2 better than s1? In some ways. But that's like saying getting punched in the face is better than getting hit with a sledge hammer. Neither is good.

 

I want to focus on two of the most awful parts, at least to me.

 

 

 

I think I need to reread the series again to get the sour taste of the show out of my mouth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ware, least ye die before reaching the end of the endless book series.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Tim the Bald

[Tim the Bald]

10 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

 

 

The bottom line for me is that I think Robert Jordan is an immeasurably better writer than Rafe Judkins

Ah, but Judkins is alive, and Jordan is dead.

[Elder_Haman]

3 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Setting that aside, as a book fan, are you disappointed that so much of the story is being changed, rewritten, or made up for the show?

Not really, no. I’m happy that despite knowing the books, I don’t know what to expect in the show. 
 

I’ve always been of the opinion that WoT as written by Jordan would just not be great television, even though they were great books. 
 

Now that doesn’t mean that I’ve loved every choice that has been made. There have been plenty examples of below average writing, wonky CGI, badly cut fight scenes, and strange decisions. 
 

I also admit to skewing more toward the positive and “defending” the writers in these forums because I find the vehemence of some of the criticisms off putting. It ruffles my feathers when people make statements about how people should be “embarrassed” or the every decision is “trash”, etc. 

[Skipp]

17 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Not really, no. I’m happy that despite knowing the books, I don’t know what to expect in the show. 
 

I’ve always been of the opinion that WoT as written by Jordan would just not be great television, even though they were great books. 
 

Now that doesn’t mean that I’ve loved every choice that has been made. There have been plenty examples of below average writing, wonky CGI, badly cut fight scenes, and strange decisions. 
 

I also admit to skewing more toward the positive and “defending” the writers in these forums because I find the vehemence of some of the criticisms off putting. It ruffles my feathers when people make statements about how people should be “embarrassed” or the every decision is “trash”, etc. 

Exactly this

 

There are plenty of things I can nitpick, there are plenty of things I would have done in a different way.  Ultimately those moments don't bother me much because I am happy with the final product.  Do I hope the show continues to improve every aspect of the show?  Yup, sure do but I love seeing my favourite book series come to life on screen and I love being able to speculate again.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Skipp

[king of nowhere]

which is not even all that different from the books, because even in the books there are plenty of things I would have done differently, plenty of storylines that feel forced, stretched, overly contrieved, or just plain unnecessary. but the overall result is a net plus.

 

It's quite easy in 8 hours of show to make a list with a dozen questionable things in the season. it's also easy to make a similar list with a dozen good things.

 

if I may suggest, just mentally retcon - or skim - the things you didn't like and focus on those you like. this is how I appreciate the tv show. the books, too.

Edited October 8, 2023 by king of nowhere

[Agitel]

I'm not upset with some things being changed, but I do agree a lot of S2E8 felt cringe to me. Part of that may just be trying to translate parts of the books to screen, I find the ending of TGH a little awkward in that respect, but I think a lot of it involved some sloppy writing choices after what I feel was a mostly improved S2. 

 

S2E8 didn't burn me the way S1E8 did. I'm still invested. But I'm hoping the quality doesn't peak here. I hope it continues to improve.

[Vartija]

I hope they take a critical look at the pacing for future seasons. I think both seasons suffered from a rush to the finish line type of approach. They take their time building some storylines early in the season like it was a 10+ episode season and then end up cramming too much into episodes 7 & 8. The internal logic suffers when they have to force a conclusion to every storyline in 60 minutes.  

 

Also they should do a better job landing the storylines they've developed during the season. We spent a fair bit of time with Elayne & Nyn coming up with a plan to save Egwene only to have her save herself from the a'dam. Ingtar was hinted at as a DF but then we didn't get the reveal which made much of the (admittedly) little buildup with him useless. Likewise we spend precious time with Rand finding wine for Logain but in the end he didn't learn anything from him, yet was still able to do two intricate weaves in the final episodes when the plot needed it.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Vartija

[king of nowhere]

48 minutes ago, Vartija said:

I hope they take a critical look at the pacing for future seasons. I think both seasons suffered from a rush to the finish line type of approach. They take their time building some storylines early in the season like it was a 10+ episode season and then end up cramming too much into episodes 7 & 8. The internal logic suffers when they have to force a conclusion to every storyline in 60 minutes.  

 

Also they should do a better job landing the storylines they've developed during the season. We spent a fair bit of time with Elayne & Nyn coming up with a plan to save Egwene only to have her save herself from the a'dam. Ingtar was hinted at as a DF but then we didn't get the reveal which made much of the (admittedly) little buildup with him useless. Likewise we spend precious time with Rand finding wine for Logain but in the end he didn't learn anything from him, yet was still able to do two intricate weaves in the final episodes when the plot needed it.

yeah, those are actual issues.
though with all the times nynaeve just exploded and solved the plot in the first season, putting her down is good to advance her arc.
and rand+logain feels a waste, but maybe rand will come back and be trained in the next season.

ingtar... was a bit of a wasted arc

[grayavatar]

19 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

 

so, you propose that the show goes out of its way to characterize every individual hero of the horn?

 

Of course not. I would rather have protracted scenes of Lan taking a piss on a tree or Barthanes talking about making sandwiches. The heroes of the horn are not important, who cares about the Horn of Valere

[The Bandit Queen]

I loved this season. It doesn’t bother me if others didn’t but people have turned into nitpicking, pedantic weirdos who don’t seem to actually pay attention to what’s happening on the screen because they are too busy looking for things to hate. 
 

Mat didn’t run into a random group of soldiers on the roof. Those soldiers were guarding the entrance to the tower. I’m pretty sure Ishy didn’t want to be interrupted while encountering the Dragon Reborn. Mat had to blow the horn there and clear out those soldiers otherwise none of the others would have been able to get up there and help Rand. 
 

Rafe has done a wonderful job of adapting this to the TV. People expecting a 1:1 remake of the books on screen are in for a disappointment. There is no way to do that. Rafe has done well in pulling out the important bits from the book and reworking them so they work on screen. People complain after an episode without even waiting to see what’s been done with the story. Often times those complaints have been solved/addressed in the following episodes. They just had to be reworked because tv is a completely different medium. 
 

Certain things also make sense to be cut. Igtar being a dark friend and his speech was awesome in the books. It would have fell flat on screen though because there isn’t enough time to build that arc up. Same with the Turak fight. Rand had had basically no sword training in the books. Him defeating Turak in a sword fight would have been unbelievable. I love what they did instead. People have complained about it because it didn't happen that way in the books but it doesn’t have to happen that way to make sense. Another example of people complaining without waiting to see is Randy lack of training with Lan that lead up to that fight. There wasn’t enough time so Rafe has wisely moved that training to next season. There are too many characters and the world too big to do everything in the 8 episodes Amazon gives us. It’s obvious to me that Rafe understands and cares for the source material and is deliberate and careful with what gets moved and changed.

 

There is also the fact that Covid played havoc on season one. Mat #1 leaving also greatly changed the arc of season 2. Instead of the characters being together, he had to write them going their separate ways. He did well with these unexpected hurdles thrown at him as well.  
 

I wouldn’t want a 1:1 remake of the book anyway. I want to be surprised and excited by what happens on screen. If I want the books exactly, I’ll just reread the books. 

[TheMountain]

22 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

It’s not that my expectations are low. It’s that I genuinely enjoy the show. I did not enjoy season 1 as much. I really liked season 2. 
 

People are allowed to like different things. 

Having lurked on here since the end of Season 1 without once logging in, I've seen A LOT of your posts @Elder_Haman. I felt compelled to finally log in and tell you... from one random internet user to another... in my non-expert internet armchair opinion... you do, in fact, have very low standards. But that's okay. Plenty of people love reality TV, for example. Hell, I enjoy it myself from time to time as well. It's nice to switch off my brain sometimes and be taken along for a wild, if undemanding, ride. I just expected so much more from the Wheel of Time, and try as I might, I just can't get over it. I expect that I'm not alone in that sentiment.

Edited October 8, 2023 by TheMountain

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

I felt compelled to finally log in and tell you... from one random internet user to another... in my non-expert internet armchair opinion... you do, in fact, have very low standards.

LOL. Thanks. I'll take that for exactly what it's worth. 😉

[TheMountain]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

LOL. Thanks. I'll take that for exactly what it's worth. 😉

You're welcome. My non-solicitation consultation fee is five internet dollars 🤣

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, TheMountain said:

You're welcome. My non-solicitation consultation fee is five internet dollars 🤣

You deserve a 25% tip.

[TheMountain]

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

You deserve a 25% tip.

Wow, you DO have low-standards.

[king of nowhere]

2 hours ago, TheMountain said:

Having lurked on here since the end of Season 1 without once logging in, I've seen A LOT of your posts @Elder_Haman. I felt compelled to finally log in and tell you... from one random internet user to another... in my non-expert internet armchair opinion... you do, in fact, have very low standards. But that's okay. Plenty of people love reality TV, for example. Hell, I enjoy it myself from time to time as well. It's nice to switch off my brain sometimes and be taken along for a wild, if undemanding, ride. I just expected so much more from the Wheel of Time, and try as I might, I just can't get over it. I expect that I'm not alone in that sentiment.

the problem with expectations here is that of different media. tv does some things better, books do other things better.

and one of the things books do better is plot. in a book, you can spend some pages detailing exactly why a certain character is in a certain place to do something. in a movie, there's no time for that. in general, a book can explain deeply, a movie cannot. so my expectations there are lower, and I can accept - if grudgingly - on a tv show plot holes and ass pulls that would have me throw a book at the wall.

on the other hand, tv shows do images. combats, scenery, costumes. I'm never going to complain that swordfights in the book are not as spectacular as they are in a tv show, because the book is more limited there, and i have lower expectations of what a good book fight is.

[king of nowhere]

4 hours ago, grayavatar said:

Of course not. I would rather have protracted scenes of Lan taking a piss on a tree or Barthanes talking about making sandwiches. The heroes of the horn are not important, who cares about the Horn of Valere

sorry, i'm too busy spending half of a book as part of a circus to have time for that 😛