WoT Season 2 Episode 8: What Was Meant to Be

[DaddyFinn]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

wait, wait, wait. moiraine cannot use the power as a weapon except as last resort to defend her life, that of lan, or that of other aes sedai. she ABSOLUTELY cannot use it to blow up ships in the distance that are not paying attention to her; most of those ships don't even have damane on board. That's a MAJOR plot hole. And it could easily be avoided by having moiraine cut the flows of the other damane. I'm dropping the rating of the whole show just for that. shame on everyone involved.

The possibility of ship people holding Rand captive and or trying to kill him would be a good reason for Moiraine to fear for her life. Don't know how many actually died directly from her fire-torpedoes

[king of nowhere]

3 minutes ago, Mailman said:

Well okay just one that jumps out in the last 2 episodes for me is that Rand made a deal with Lanfear that directly caused the deaths of many people (at least a dozen in front of the gate)

did I miss something?

lanfear already killed the people in cahirien. rand made a deal with her partially to get her to stop, and partially because she's too powerful.

unless you are referring to rand killing turak? well, it was self defence. sort of. yeah, rand was still softer at this point of the books. but then, this also encompassed book 3, rand was like this at the end of book 3

[Mailman]

2 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

did I miss something?

lanfear already killed the people in cahirien. rand made a deal with her partially to get her to stop, and partially because she's too powerful.

unless you are referring to rand killing turak? well, it was self defence. sort of. yeah, rand was still softer at this point of the books. but then, this also encompassed book 3, rand was like this at the end of book 3

Rand asked could she get him out and she attacked to draw the Aes Sedai away.

[The_Watcher_And_Wanderer]

6 minutes ago, Mailman said:

Well okay just one that jumps out in the last 2 episodes for me is that Rand made a deal with Lanfear that directly caused the deaths of many people (at least a dozen in front of the gate) That would have been devastating for him in the books at this point of his development. And at this point he could not appear to give a single care about those innocents he caused to be killed.

Right? Especially considering that some of those innocents were surely women. Book Rand had a HUGE problem with causing the death of any woman, let alone an innocent one. 

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, Mailman said:

Rand asked could she get him out and she attacked to draw the Aes Sedai away.

Rand is not yet familiar with Lanfear’s casual brutality. He knew she would rescue him, but he didn’t know she would massacre civilians to accomplish his escape. 

[Guire]

3 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

did I miss something?

lanfear already killed the people in cahirien. rand made a deal with her partially to get her to stop, and partially because she's too powerful.

unless you are referring to rand killing turak? well, it was self defence. sort of. yeah, rand was still softer at this point of the books. but then, this also encompassed book 3, rand was like this at the end of book 3

Rand asked for help while being shielded and captive from Lan without TV showing what help was supossed to involve.  After Lanfeat burned Forgate he doubled down on using her help knowing she was burning city to aid him.

[Mailman]

Just now, Elder_Haman said:

Rand is not yet familiar with Lanfear’s casual brutality. He knew she would rescue him, but he didn’t know she would massacre civilians to accomplish his escape. 

Come on these are the characters that have been used to scare children and adults for generations. Even if you give the benefit that he did not know about her casual brutality it does not change that he was involved in the attack by asking her to help him and he still could not seem to care one jot about those deaths.

[wotfan4472]

5 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

The possibility of ship people holding Rand captive and or trying to kill him would be a good reason for Moiraine to fear for her life. Don't know how many actually died directly from her fire-torpedoes

The one out clause that Moiraine has if the Oaths are the same, is that since she knows Ishamael and Lanfear are both there, then she can assume those people on the ships are darkfriends.

 

We know thanks to Suroth being there, that a darkfriend is now in direct command since Turak died. Which means the Shadow held the city at that specific moment. She is correct in her decision, but Lan was equally correct in his point as well.

 

Because we will never know if anyone on that ship knew Suroth served the Shadow, and was plotting to remove her, and could have done it then and there, since the battle could have given that person a chance.

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, Mailman said:

Come on these are the characters that have been used to scare children and adults for generations. Even if you give the benefit that he did not know about her casual brutality it does not change that he was involved in the attack by asking her to help him and he still could not seem to care one jot about those deaths.

He has not had time to process those deaths, yet. Once again, you have to allow some time for him to grapple with all of that. Which is basically the next part of his arc: “okay, I accept that I’m the Dragon. What does that mean?”

[Mirefox]

Notes while watching:

 

- Pointless cold open.  All it seemed to do is humanize a forsaken and make him a more sympathetic character…

 

-The best part of the show is still the title sequence.  Glad to see it back in this episode.

 

-Apparently gateways are out.  Lanfear just teleports now.

 

-Damane weaving has all been motion-based, with the Suldam  mirroring them.  So why is their punishment to take a Damane’s hands?  
 

-Fain hands over the dagger?  No, just no.  I also don’t like him in the lackey roll.  I prefer the Fain who nails Fades to a wall through their eyes…

 

-Loial is just wandering the city with the Horn of Valere?  Did I miss the part where three slaves steal it from Seanchan nobility?

 

-Hahaha, RIP Turak.  Rand didn’t need sword training; he’s One Power proficient…

 

-…And RIP Ingtar.  Criminally underused, underdeveloped, and pointless to this show.

 

-Bayle suddenly has an accent.  He didn’t speak like this at the beginning of the season, did he?

 

-Hey, the dagger works again!  It magically stabilize itself to a staff with a single piece of fabric, it can melt metal, and it kills instantly.  Thank goodness that Ogier and Fal Darans are immune…

 

-He Suldam/Damane stuff is so poorly written and so inconsistent.  What garbage.  On top of that, taking the bracelet off releases the collar?!?!  She freaking left the bracelet in Egwene’s cell!

 

-The dagger can do everything!

 

-Perrin is a competent sword fighter!  At least he finally got an axe.

 

-Hopper’s death sucked to watch and watching him “fly” away was moving.  Well done, there.

 

-Mat and the heroes was cool.  It was fun to see Uno there.  
 

-Why could Nyn get through her block to study the A’dam but not to heal Elayne?

 

-Oh look, a super woman to the rescue again.  I’m so surprised…

 

-It was nice of Ishamael to watch Rand slowly approaching to stab him in the heart.  Very considerate of him.

 

This show is so disrespectful to the source material and the writing is so mediocre…

 

So last season, we took Tarwin’s Gap away from Rand and gave it to the girls.  This season ended with Rand being saved by Egwene, who out-channeled a forsaken, while Moiraine channeled enough to destroy a fleet of ships from miles away.  And people still think we’re close-minded bigots when we point out the continual elevation of women over men.

 

I think we can officially say that at this point Perrin is a better sword fighter than Rand…

[Mailman]

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

He has not had time to process those deaths, yet. Once again, you have to allow some time for him to grapple with all of that. Which is basically the next part of his arc: “okay, I accept that I’m the Dragon. What does that mean?”

We could have had some great character work he could have screamed at Lanfear about what she had done and she could have thrown it back in his face that he was the one that had requested her help. Easily could have traded that in for some of the extensive slow motion looks exchanged between Moiraine and Siuan.

[EmreY]

34 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

You just blow past the explanation. When Mo says she would kill 1000 innocent people to protect Rand, she establishes that protecting the Dragon as the internal justification which permits her to “bypass” the oaths: by definition, if they are trying to harm the Dragon, they are all Darkfriends. 

 

32 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

TV Show Oath doesn't have a clause for dark friends.

 

 

Yeah, that's a big problem.

 

On the other hand, what if Moiraine's mentally slightly off?  She's clearly obsessed with the Dragon in the conversational sense.  What if it goes a little beyond that?

 

I had this interesting back-and-forth with my current go-to guru, aka ChatGPT:

 

Quote

Me: What is the clinical definition of obsession?

Quote

 

ChatGPT: Obsession, in a clinical context, often refers to intrusive, unwanted, and distressing thoughts, images, or urges that repeatedly enter an individual's mind. They are a hallmark of certain mental health conditions, most notably Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD).

 

Could you specify in what context or within which particular disorder you're referring to? This would help me provide a more tailored answer.

 

 

Quote

 

Me: It is within the context of what may be a paradox. As follows: Moiraine cannot hurt anyone (this is absolute) unless she believes herself to be in danger. However, she hurts someone who is in turn hurting a person without whom Moiraine would be in grave danger, no ifs or buts.

 

Quote

 

ChatGPT: This presents an interesting philosophical dilemma. Based on the information provided:

 

1. Moiraine cannot hurt anyone unless she believes herself to be in danger.

2. Someone is hurting a person without whom Moiraine would undoubtedly be in grave danger.

 

Given the above, Moiraine's act of hurting the individual who is causing harm to the essential person to her safety is consistent with her need for self-preservation. If she genuinely believes that her life is in jeopardy due to the actions of this individual, then her response is in line with her stated limitations.

However, there's an implied nuance here. The true paradox lies in the nature of Moiraine's belief. If she's fully aware of her inability to hurt anyone unless she believes she's in danger, then the belief itself might be influenced by this knowledge, complicating the authenticity of the belief.

 

 

I think this might be something like what is happening here.

[Ralph]

what makes anyone think rand knows Lanfear killed anyone in Cairhien? does he even know about the fire? 

[Gary Again]

I really liked the episode and it did feel like wheel of time to me and overall I think it was a great way to proclaim the dragon because if you look at it from the average person's perspective an army shows up out of nowhere huge magical battle at the top of the tower, seanchan get kicked back to wherever they came from and at the end of it this guy is standing there at the top of the tower with a flaming dragon and they go crazy I think it was great. The stone of Tear was honestly a little anti climatic because people basically fell asleep, woke up and the next day there was a dragon banner. I like that he was proclaimed to the common people by freeing them and breaking chains and I can imagine a story like this spreading through the world like wild fire as a signal that there may be something different with this dude. For me this landed and I guess this is the most important thing of the season for the dragon to be proclaimed.

 

I liked the Ishy battle, he isn't trying to murder everyone they are trying to use Rand's friends to get to him to turn to the shadow so I think Ishy was playing it up for dramatic effect. Ishy didn't care if he lived or died because he wants to die and knows he's just going to end up alive again fighting the dragon. Book Ishy also acted like this and got killed 3x in a row. I thought it was a nice touch that Ishy sheathed the sword which they didn't really set up for Rand they left it as an easter egg to the book readers. The thing with Egwene's shield this isn't the first time she has used this she also used it to protect Nynaeve and Elayne from the Seanchan I think this is one of her talents and people with talents do have significant advantages using those weaves. Like the lady in the book that could make flexible shields that nobody could break, the gateway talent etc. Egwene wasn't going toe to toe in a channeling battle with Ishy she was holding one weave that I think she has a talent for and was gradually wearing down. I guess there could have been more there between Rand and Ishy but that would start to be unbelievable like why can untrained Rand go toe to toe with the second most powerful channeler ever at the height of his powers so I kind of like that Ishy really didn't care one way or the other (fits his character pretty well) and Rand was almost putting him out of his misery because that's really what Ishy wants anyway. I thought Ishy's line was great too at the end. Loved Rand vs Turak and I like the touch where everyone ended up on their knees bowing to Rand that was a cool call back to what happened in TDR.

 

The Moiraine thing is definitely interesting because she shouldn't be able to just unload on the Seanchan and she was not under direct threat but I think it is similar to the ferry earlier she just sunk the boat and then the wheel gonna weave as the wheel wills. I think it makes sense because she didn't directly attack any of them with the power. I will say that both the scene of her and Lan's bond and her channeling on the beach were some of the most visually stunning shots of the series they were just gorgeous and I'll also throw in the charge of the white cloaks that was another one that was just visually stunning they did a great job with all of these. Liked Lan just grabbing an arrow out of the air and then stabbing someone in the neck with it. The thing about distances I get I think that was pretty far to shield someone, I don't have as much of a problem with Moiraine's thing because they were within view and she just kind of one after the other hit them with fire she didn't just obliterate the fleet she was more just methodical and strategic in hitting the Damanae ships first. When Bayle is trying to get away from the Seanchan it's pretty clear that they can blow his boat out of the water pretty easy from distance so I don't see why Moiraine wouldn't the main thing was disabling the Damanae first which she did. The shield is kind of problematic but Ishy was there so we probably can't rule out gateway shenanigans or something else they could do and overall that wasn't big enough to really bother me.

 

I overall like the change with Dain and Perrin and Hopper because you do get the sense that they could have been friends if things were different so it is just kind of tragic but unforgivable on both ends what happens. I did really like the two rivers?! comment from Dain where he sees Perrin and they fight together for a bit. I thought this whole thing landed for me too I like these changes and think they will pay off more as we go. Sad to see with Hopper but the visual of him hopping was beautiful, they had to do this one and I was sad to see it. This is why it is good they are using actual animals it's just hard to capture them well in CGI if you aren't just trying to make them look tough. Perrin using the shield at the climax seemed kind of forced to get him involved but it fit the character well. Liked when he saw Mat and Mat was just like hope your friends can fight.

 

Egwene was amazing I'm actually sad to see Renna go because I think she did an amazing job so I wanted to see her continue but I like that Egwene kept her word and I like that she did the same thing to Renna that was done to her. I like that Egwene figured out how to free herself I think that ties well with her strategic thinking later in the series and I like that it was through sheer strength of will and dealing with pain that she was able to outlast Renna as that also ties in well with her later in the series. The whole Suldam/Damanae paradox is kind of strange but Ashaman and Aes Sedai double bonded each other and these are based on a bond so again it wasn't enough to take me out of the moment and dramatically this moment was absolutely perfect so I'll allow it.

 

Mat I honestly loved his stuff and the whole Ashandari thing was funny to me but I feel like maybe he saw it with the tea a bit, or maybe he just tied a stick to it lol but either way it worked for me. I'm good with the hero of the horn I thought he should have always been one anyway but didn't strongly care one way or another, it is a good way for him to get the memories if they are not doing the snakes and foxes but I think they are forshadowing some of that stuff so I think we do get snakes and foxes. The army of the dead heroes was something I thought could get really cheesy just because I hated the LOTR version but I thought this worked pretty well and I liked the Uno touch and I think he fought with two swords and was next to Brigitte so if he's Gaidal Cain that's pretty cool. Overall I thought all of it paid off. The lock thing I didn't mind too much I figure they are combining the dagger with the knife that the dark friend had in the books that would burn wood and it foreshadows Mat in the tower so again it didn't bother me. If this is the real Ashandari is a good question, the fact that it's a poisonous dagger that he can never touch but is always addicted to and is just impossibly corrosive makes it cooler so I'd be ok if his buddy Perrin just makes it permanent.

 

I don't mind Nynaeve having a big power moment because she's been regularly doing good things without the power she kept it together and helped get Elayne away from the Seanchan, helped Elayne here so I like showing how Nynaeve can be effective without the power. Really enjoyed Rand's moment with Elayne I think that was really cool and a great way to get a lot across in a limited amount of time. I think we will get a lot of them in Tear in the early next season. Wasn't a big fan of the fletching part but I was liking everything else so it didn't bug me too much.

 

Scene at the end was amazing they have crushed it with the forsaken so I'm excited to see each and every one of them but that was an awesome introduction. Sad we will have to wait 1.5-2 years but it was a good season kind of reminds me of waiting for the books again. I didn't agree with everything but overall I thought it was really strong and progressed to a good conclusion. The flaming dragon may have been a bit much lol but it was better than having Rand and Ishy fight in the clouds and I don't know a good way to do it another way so again I'll allow it and it did look like the banner dragon so I liked that.

 

 

[EmreY]

Just now, Ralph said:

what makes anyone think rand knows Lanfear killed anyone in Cairhien? does he even know about the fire? 

 

The Amyrlin and most of the people with her did go off, so I assumed he overheard.  Or Moiraine or Verin told him.

[SinisterDeath]

1 minute ago, EmreY said:

 

 

Yeah, that's a big problem.

 

On the other hand, what if Moiraine's mentally slightly off?  She's clearly obsessed with the Dragon in the conversational sense.  What if it goes a little beyond that?

 

I had this interesting back-and-forth with my current go-to guru, aka ChatGPT:

 

 

 

 

I think this might be something like what is happening here.

Your ChatGPT nonsense aside, we don't know that show Moiraine & Siuan don't have a tweaked 3rd Oath due to their dragon connection. 

They've already changed things by having Moiraine swear a 4th oath...

[king of nowhere]

3 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

 

Yeah, that's a big problem.

 

On the other hand, what if Moiraine's mentally slightly off?  She's clearly obsessed with the Dragon in the conversational sense.  What if it goes a little beyond that?

 

I had this interesting back-and-forth with my current go-to guru, aka ChatGPT:

 

 

 

 

I think this might be something like what is happening here.

heh, but the oath specifies "last extreme".

otherwise it would be all too easy for an aes sedai to kill like lanfear did, and then justify it as "those packed up peasants were fertile ground for the covid pandemics that threatens everyone, so I dispersed them"

[EmreY]

1 minute ago, SinisterDeath said:

Your ChatGPT nonsense aside, we don't know that show Moiraine & Siuan don't have a tweaked 3rd Oath due to their dragon connection. 

They've already changed things by having Moiraine swear a 4th oath...

 

You're stretching.

[Guire]

1 minute ago, king of nowhere said:

heh, but the oath specifies "last extreme".

otherwise it would be all too easy for an aes sedai to kill like lanfear did, and then justify it as "those packed up peasants were fertile ground for the covid pandemics that threatens everyone, so I dispersed them"

Packed peasants presenting perilous pandenic possibilty was always the real danger.

[EmreY]

OK, so what if she considers Rand to be an Aes Sedai?

 

Just throwing ideas here, BTW.

[SinisterDeath]

4 minutes ago, EmreY said:

You're stretching.

How am I stretching?

 

Last season, they didn't show us the Gitara scene.

So was it stretching when we said that Moiraine was there for the Gitara prophecies?

 

We don't know that what they've changed, and they've already changed the 3 oaths by the very nature of introducing a 4th oath.

 

We don't know that Siuane and Moiraine haven't figured out that you can unbind an oath and make a new oath and change the wording of the 3rd oath to include the dragon... And that they won't just include that as a flash back in season 3 or 4...

 

  

Just now, EmreY said:

OK, so what if she considers Rand to be an Aes Sedai?

 

Just throwing ideas here, BTW.

That's stretching.

[EmreY]

15 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

How am I stretching?

 

15 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

That's stretching.

 

Because the absence of something does not imply its possibility.  The absence of evidence regarding a fourth oath does not imply that it is possible, just as the absence so far that I am a secret channeler imply that I could be.

 

As such, it falls under pure conjecture, which is fine, but "stretching" can be applied to conjecture.  At least I didn't call it nonsense.

 

... and, yes, I am stretching, which should be obvious to all from the "Just throwing ideas here" comment.

 

However, the fact that I'm stretching doesn't mean that what you said logical.

Edited October 6, 2023 by EmreY

[SinisterDeath]

Just now, EmreY said:

Because the absence of something does not imply its possibility.  The absence of evidence regarding a fourth oath does not imply that it is possible, just as the absence so far that I am a secret channeler imply that I could be.

She ALREADY has a fourth OATH!

[EmreY]

Just now, SinisterDeath said:

She ALREADY has a fourth OATH!

 

Apologies, fifth, sixth and seventh putative oaths.

[SinisterDeath]

How did they know a fourth oath would even work if someone didn't try it already?

 

Just like in the books if they know adding an oath beyond the 3rd works, someone had to have tried removing one.