WoT Season 2 Episode 8: What Was Meant to Be

[Rhaze]

On 10/11/2023 at 12:22 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Yes, and that thought hinges on premeditation.

 

I can hold a hammer in my hand and think about hammering a nail into a piece of wood.
But the moment I have an intrusive thought about taking that hammer and turning the Sul'dam's head into pulp is the moment that a'dam would slam me into the ground.

If I picked up that hammer with the premeditated thought of taking it and turning the Sul'dam's head into paste, it wouldn't let me.

 

I don't know why no one's willing to entertain the possibility of premeditation? 

 My issue is, why do we have to be on a forum coming up with all types of possibilities of why and how when even the best "reasons" are flimsy? The writers are making a lot of money to write good material, not minimal, good enough, get er done, material.

 

 This is a writer issue, great writers would come up with a scenario where the watchers went "oh my goodness! that was amazing". Because they were not copying from the book, they could have came up with something much more consistent that didnt flaunt the "rules"... Same with Moraine and her mega-power at the end. If they were going to give her this amazing mega-power, why not snap the flows of the shield, hell let Rand have a moment where he blasts out massive fireballs at the ships as soon as the shield snaps. Nynaeve could have gotten pissed finally and hurled a ball of fire. Just too many ways for them to have written it better but they settled for something less than great. Get er done!

[Mailman]

On 10/12/2023 at 6:21 AM, Elder_Haman said:

I think what we are meant to conclude is that Egwene developed the mental fortitude to train her mind so that she wouldn't think of killing with the collar and was able to stay in that mental fortress while she endured the pain Renna was enduring.

 

Did they pull it off well? Not really. Would a rescue by Elayne and Nyn have been better? Probably. They chose "emotionally satisfying" over logical consistency. In this instance, it worked for me. With the dagger, it did not.

Emotional pay off at the cost of internal consistency is a hallmark of crap writing. 

On 10/12/2023 at 6:25 AM, SinisterDeath said:

The a'dam is a Ter'angrael that works based on what you're thinking, feeling, or believe at the moment. (And this involves not thinking/feeling or believing it subconsciously)

We know through out the novels that Aes Sedai training often involves suppressing surface thoughts/feelings/beliefs... like not feeling heat.

So you have to believe that a'dam isn't a weapon when you place it on someone.

Whether Egwene should have been able to use it to lift Renna up on the thing and choke her is a more interesting question that I don't have much explanation other than.... You have to believe doing so isn't going to hurt her.

Didn't she acknowledge Renna saying that if she hanged then Egwene would die as well. Hard to believe that she could possibly have believed death would not hurt her.

[VooDooNut]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but I've been wondering if Egwene used Renna to channel herself onto the hook, bypassing the issue of doing it herself?

 

 

There's something funky with how the one power is being shown here too. We can see Egwene's weave's by her body, but not by Renna. Also, she seems to be concentrating more than she would be if she were channeling the weave herself.

Edit: On top of that, she is using her hand to guide the weave. A very anti-Egwene thing, as we have seen be re-enforced this season.

Edited October 13, 2023 by VooDooNut

[SinisterDeath]

3 hours ago, Godoggo said:

Which supports that the moment she thinks to use the a'dam as a weapon, she will "slam" to the ground thus preventing her from placing it on the suldam.  

 

 

No.

They can't pick up a weapon.

 

Placing it on someone isn't a weapon.

No more then helping the Sul'dam get dressed is a weapon.

 

Also.

 

Thinking about hurting your Sul'Dam doesn't cause the Damane to get "slammed" on the ground. 

Case in point, when Egwene fantasized about beating Renna to death.

 

You know what isn't laying a hand on the Sul'dam?

 

Inflicting pain on the Sul'dam thru the bracelet.

 

 

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, Mailman said:

Emotional pay off at the cost of internal consistency is a hallmark of crap writing.

It is something that happens occasionally, even with good writers. It is ideal? No. Would I have preferred it be done differently? Yes. Did it break the show? No. Did it diminish my enjoyment? Again, no. 

[Scarloc99]

11 hours ago, Godoggo said:

you are totally missing the rule set up in the show.  Of course, damane can use weapons.  They are taught to be a weapon.  The rule in the show is that they can't use anything that they think of as a weapon against their suldam.  That would include the collar of course being used as a weapon against her suldam, especially since she had worked out that her suldam had to be able to channel.  There is no way that Egwene wouldn't have thought of the collar as a weapon as it was used as a weapon to torture her.  

Actually no, Damane can't use anything that is deemed a weapon, and cant use Anything as a weapon against anyone the Sul Damane stops, otherwise as I said before Damane could just kill each others Sul Damane, or commit mutual suicide, or one Damane could go nuts and kill a load of Seanchan, or even the Empress. 

 

Egwene stating, I didn't know if that would work" alongside Renas saying "Fool the collar has no effect on a women that cannot channel" or words to that effect proves that Egwene had not thought beyond the next step, she didnt think, I will do the collar and then kill her, she reacted in the moment without really thinking about what came next, she can't have thought about what came next she hadn't pre-empted any of it. The tower was destroyed, Renna blamed her claiming she had done it, attacked her and Egwene reached out for the first thing she could see. 

Tell me then HOW the collar in that instance is a "weapon"? At best it is a pair of handcuffs, or a lasso to catch a wild animal and I will go back again to the fact that if she cant collar the Sul Damane, then that is a pretty big loophole in how the collar works, you can collar anyone Except a sul damane? 

 

 

[fra85uk]

Instead of all this ambiguity and incoherent writing that needs philosophical debate , wasn't it easier to have her rescued and then her revenge?

How could noone did come up with something so linear and coherent ?  

 

Spoiler alert: someone did

[melegant]

All right...

Long time fan of this site, and long time fan of the books. Have read/listened multiple times.

Rand and Mat are my two favorite characters of all time.

 

This show is a 1000% disrespect to Rand. Rand did nothing, both seasons. No character development, no insight to his internal struggle. He learns sword forms from an old man who is insane. Constantly shielded so other characters can 'develop'. He is just a device for other characters to move from A to B. He is the dragon reborn and the best thing has been able to do is take three steps and stab a forsaken. Please also ask the actor to not put on the evil face when channeling it is dumb. He is not Anakin Skywalker.

 

On that subject, they missed the whole point of the battle in Falme. Seeing the battle in the sky is how the people of Falme see and understand that the Dragon has returned. It is religious, to the point that it would inspire people to follow Rand. In the show, how did anyone see what was happening on top of that tower? Rand just pops his head up and everyone is like 'Hail the Dragon'? Moraine casts a spell from the beach and that is the dragon banner? What? For every one thing this show does right they do 5 things wrong. They know the source material, they know it well because there are little details that do make me happy (referring to Loail as builder, for instance). Mat blowing the horn? Amazing...gave me goosebumps. Ishmael shooting fireballs at Egwene for 5 minutes and does nothing else? What? When the rest of the season he was amazing powerful and scary? Rand learns channeling from Logain (who is was excellent btw) from like a sentence? They can't take 30 seconds for him to fight Turak? Especially when they did such a great job of Turak taking out is sword and preparing to fight? I was like YES THIS IS GOING TO BE AWESOME. Nope, Rand puts on his angry Jedi face and kills everyone with the one power. Ok. 

Elayne, amazing. Aviendha, horrible. Maiden Hand Talk? Fantastic. Mat putting the dagger on his signature weapon, horrible. Padan Fain, horrible. The maidens giant spears, horrible. Lanfear, fantastic. 

 

Loail as a battle hardened rager. WHAT?

 

Uno as a hero of the horn. Absolutely revolting and demeaning to every other hero of the horn. He is on the same level as Artur Hawkwing...WHAT?

 

How they showed the hero's of the horn fighting, awesome.

 

So there is just some random waygate on a beach miles away from Falme? Moraine and Lan fall in the water but next scene they are all dry. What?? Moraine and Lan restoring the bond, well shot, and had tears in my eyes. Lan catching an arrow at the fight on the beach? Gigachad. That the dude up on the cliff fires no more arrows after that, LAZY WRITING.

 

Bayle now just a thief who loots? What? They don't have 3 seconds for him to say Fortune do be prickin me? 

 

I can provide a 100 examples of this nonsense for the whole 2nd season. 1 amazing thing, followed by 5 dumb things.

 

Thank the light for Mat and the horn. That was well done, and is about the only scene that had a real emotional payoff. Egwene maybe a little bit, but something about that whole arc felt off to me.

 

I want to love this show. I want to so bad. For sure, quality has been improving. I don't have an issue with changing elements of the story to speed it up, consolidate for non book readers etc.

 

 

 

[BenPatient]

If you missed the watch-through with Brandon and Daniel last night, it is worth it just for all of the info we got. Off the top of my head:

 

1. Brandon was consulted just as heavily this season as on S1. He just hasn't talked about it before now, really. He pushed back on a bunch of stuff in the scripts, and won a couple of battles, but most of his commentary during the episode was "sorry guys, I tried."

 

2. As far as BS knows, Ishy's death there is supposed to be final. 

 

3. He is pretty sure they consider Mat's stick+dagger to be a replacement for the real one he gets from the Finn.

 

4. He hated what they did with Moiraine and Lan this season. 

 

5. Uno as a hero is probably his fault, because he complained so much about Uno being killed. Consolation prize is Uno=Gaidal.

 

6. He really, really didn't like the battle at the top of the tower, or the way Nyn just sat there and watched Elayne heal Rand while Ishy did...nothing.  

 

7. He has major concerns about the show prioritizing "cool scenes" over coherent storytelling or character arcs. 

 

8. He thought the script for S2E8 was the weakest of the season, excepting S2E1. He has not watched most of the episodes, just read multiple script iterations. 

 

9. Universal praise for the forsaken and how they are being portrayed. Not so much for Fain. BS says he never had any idea what to do with Fain in the books. He basically said he flubbed his ending, but isn't sure what he was supposed to do. Probably RJ didn't have a good idea either, which is why he just booped around for the last few books, then pulled a Gollum at the Cracks of Doom moment. 

 

Last night was allegedly the first time Daniel, Matt, or Brandon have seen the episode. I suspect Daniel at least has been reading online responses, because he went straight to the meta response for most of the controversial moments. 

 

Matt's visible confusion when Eggy put the collar on Renna was hilarious. I think Brandon may have been Picarding at that particular moment. 

[VooDooNut]

On the topic of Elayne healing Rand instead of Nynaeve doing it, I suspect the writers will reference this scene later in the series as forming a "healing-bond" between Elayne and Rand, as was the case in the books whenever someone was healed by another. In addition, from a visual perspective, she starts out with a small amount of healing weaves, and, realizing it isn't enough, amplifies the weaves in some way that may prove to be important later.

 

P.S. Nynaeve seems more surprised than impressed here.

Edited October 13, 2023 by VooDooNut

[Skipp]

3 hours ago, BenPatient said:

3. He is pretty sure they consider Mat's stick+dagger to be a replacement for the real one he gets from the Finn.

 

I believe Brandon Sanderson also said that Moiraine was stilled, not shielded so let us take this with a grain of salt.

[DreadLord31]

On 10/12/2023 at 9:39 PM, Elder_Haman said:

It is something that happens occasionally, even with good writers. It is ideal? No. Would I have preferred it be done differently? Yes. Did it break the show? No. Did it diminish my enjoyment? Again, no. 

Well, I thoroughly enjoyed watching Brandon Sanderson watch episode 8 - and groan through most of it - and then, heavily criticizing the writing as bad. 
They wasted too much time on Warder crap and Moiraine’s family & because of that they didn’t properly set stuff up. 
He also criticized how they are breaking their own established rules of lore which causes them a myriad of problems - which will only compound down the road. And that’s really interesting to me that he’s warning them of that and they’re ignoring him. 
 

For example, something he brought up that we didn’t even think of is … Lanfear & then Moggy at the end, teleport. Ok, well if they can do that, then how come the moment Egwene throws up a shield vs Ishy, why wouldn’t he just teleport behind it? 
 

Also - Brandon & Daniel Greene had HUGE problems with how they used the SL dagger. But I’ve already complained about that at length. So we won’t recap. But - my point is - I have mad respect for BS in being honest about the shows bad writing! 

[DaddyFinn]

8 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

How come the moment Egwene throws up a shield vs Ishy, why wouldn’t he just teleport behind it? 

Why would he? Why didn't he just destroy them all with balefire? Surely he could have done it if he wanted to? Why does Ishy do what he does? Plenty of possible reasons that have been brought up over and over again. 

[notpropaganda73]

1 hour ago, DaddyFinn said:

Why would he? Why didn't he just destroy them all with balefire? Surely he could have done it if he wanted to? Why does Ishy do what he does? Plenty of possible reasons that have been brought up over and over again. 

 

I do find any question which ultimately asks "why doesn't the bad guy just kill the good guy there?" to be quite tiresome. Honestly there's a myriad of in-universe reasons but the same answer can be applied to literally every situation in every form of media - because the narrative requires the bad guy not to kill the good guy in that moment. 

 

 

[Gypsum]

9 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

I do find any question which ultimately asks "why doesn't the bad guy just kill the good guy there?" to be quite tiresome. Honestly there's a myriad of in-universe reasons but the same answer can be applied to literally every situation in every form of media - because the narrative requires the bad guy not to kill the good guy in that moment. 

 

 

 

Yes, that's a great point. True of every TV show and movie and book (including WOT), ever.

 

How many times has the Bad Guy had James Bond tied to a chair, a gun pointed at his head, then spent ten minutes explaining his world domination plans, giving James enough time to formulate a clever escape plan and free himself? You'd think they'd learn by now.

[DreadLord31]

1 hour ago, DaddyFinn said:

Why would he? Why didn't he just destroy them all with balefire? Surely he could have done it if he wanted to? Why does Ishy do what he does? Plenty of possible reasons that have been brought up over and over again. 

Which even BS admitted, maybe it’s the Nihilistic Ishy and he just wants to die. That’s the only thing that would make it,  not bad writing. But here’s why that is weak: BS has been consulted and read the scripts multiple times (and he did not think they had thought it through.)
So it’s more likely the writing room went like this: 

 

Writer 1: Egwene is our main character for S2, right? 
Rafe: Yes. It would have been so much better if she was the Dragon - we want to show that she is super powerful. 
Writer 2: So how about Egwene frees herself of the A’dam? 
Writer 1: Brandon said that’s impossible in the metaphysics of the book - and makes the whole point of the A’dam less horrifying. 
Rafe: Mmmm - I like it though. Let’s do it. 
Writer 2: and then Rand shows up a minute after that and says, “I came to free you, but it looks like you didn’t need it.” 
Writer 1: But doesn’t that make Rand’s whole arc kind of pointless? And then why did we have Nynaeve & Elayne capture that one Suldam? Doesn’t it make their arc useless? 
Rafe: mmm - but I like it. Egwene is the best. 
Writer 1: Didn’t Brandon say that a huge point of the WoT is that our heroes can’t do it alone & that’s the point of the a’dam arc? 
Rafe: Forget Brandon. This is drama at its best. Writer 2 - go on. 
Writer 2: ok. Then Ishy shows up and knocks Egwene out & the Damane from the boats miles away shield Rand so Ishy can dialogue. But Egwene wake up & throws up a Shield. And Ishy throws fireballs at it for a couple minutes. Until Perrin can show up with a shield! 
Writer 1: What? 
Rafe: Love it. Let’s do it. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by DreadLord31

[DreadLord31]

2 minutes ago, Gypsum said:

 

Yes, that's a great point. True of every TV show and movie and book (including WOT), ever.

 

How many times has the Bad Guy had James Bond tied to a chair, a gun pointed at his head, then spent ten minutes explaining his world domination plans, giving James enough time to formulate a clever escape plan and free himself? You'd think they'd learn by now.

I love how the Incredibles makes fun of it & points it out as bad , stupid writing. And yet - it’s still repeated again and again. 

[Gypsum]

5 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

I love how the Incredibles makes fun of it & points it out as bad , stupid writing. And yet - it’s still repeated again and again. 

 

And it will be repeated so long as we have TV, movies, and literature. There's something powerful and addictive to writers about the plot device that makes the character seem as if they are in mortal danger, even though the viewer/readers knows, at a logical level, that they are not because the show/book would not continue without them.

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Gypsum

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, DreadLord31 said:

Ok, well if they can do that, then how come the moment Egwene throws up a shield vs Ishy, why wouldn’t he just teleport behind it?

Because he wasn’t trying to kill them? 

[notpropaganda73]

6 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

I love how the Incredibles makes fun of it & points it out as bad , stupid writing. And yet - it’s still repeated again and again. 

 

sure, it's silly in the Bond movies as it became such a ridiculous trope. but often times it can be applied to shows, movies, literature that has really effective villains where you fear for your heroes, but there are still plenty of situations where the bad guy just doesn't do the thing they need to do to win. 

 

What makes those situations work or not is the build up and writing before those moments. 

 

I'm not arguing for anything in relation to the S2 finale btw, I like the idea that Ishy was toying with them a little to try and make Rand a bit more desperate and possibly turn, but I think if that was the case they didn't show it very effectively. 

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, DreadLord31 said:

Well, I thoroughly enjoyed watching Brandon Sanderson watch episode 8 - and groan through most of it - and then, heavily criticizing the writing as bad. 
They wasted too much time on Warder crap and Moiraine’s family & because of that they didn’t properly set stuff up. 
He also criticized how they are breaking their own established rules of lore which causes them a myriad of problems - which will only compound down the road. And that’s really interesting to me that he’s warning them of that and they’re ignoring him. 
 

For example, something he brought up that we didn’t even think of is … Lanfear & then Moggy at the end, teleport. Ok, well if they can do that, then how come the moment Egwene throws up a shield vs Ishy, why wouldn’t he just teleport behind it? 
 

Also - Brandon & Daniel Greene had HUGE problems with how they used the SL dagger. But I’ve already complained about that at length. So we won’t recap. But - my point is - I have mad respect for BS in being honest about the shows bad writing! 

I mean, BS should probably look at his own writing then, which I think is pretty bad, I really do not rate the final 3 books of the series, I will always be grateful that he finished the series, but I actually disagree with some of his points in the watch along and think he has decided to purposely try and stay relevant by trolling the show partly because he has obviously been sidelined. Remember this is the guy who as the TV show was being talked about, decided to drop the Lanfer Bombshell trying to prove what a clever writer he is, when all it did was show again the flaws. 

[Scarloc99]

39 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

I do find any question which ultimately asks "why doesn't the bad guy just kill the good guy there?" to be quite tiresome. Honestly there's a myriad of in-universe reasons but the same answer can be applied to literally every situation in every form of media - because the narrative requires the bad guy not to kill the good guy in that moment. 

 

 

It is up there with, why doesn't harry potter just buy a gun, or why doesn't blofeld just kill james bond after the 5th time of seeing him escape some nefarious trap seemingly designed specifically for James's new gadget, there are loads of moments in the books where the bad guys could have just killed one of the EF5 and chose not to because "reasons".  

[Scarloc99]

29 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

Which even BS admitted, maybe it’s the Nihilistic Ishy and he just wants to die. That’s the only thing that would make it,  not bad writing. But here’s why that is weak: BS has been consulted and read the scripts multiple times (and he did not think they had thought it through.)
So it’s more likely the writing room went like this: 

 

Writer 1: Egwene is our main character for S2, right? 
Rafe: Yes. It would have been so much better if she was the Dragon - we want to show that she is super powerful. 
Writer 2: So how about Egwene frees herself of the A’dam? 
Writer 1: Brandon said that’s impossible in the metaphysics of the book - and makes the whole point of the A’dam less horrifying. 
Rafe: Mmmm - I like it though. Let’s do it. 
Writer 2: and then Rand shows up a minute after that and says, “I came to free you, but it looks like you didn’t need it.” 
Writer 1: But doesn’t that make Rand’s whole arc kind of pointless? And then why did we have Nynaeve & Elayne capture that one Suldam? Doesn’t it make their arc useless? 
Rafe: mmm - but I like it. Egwene is the best. 
Writer 1: Didn’t Brandon say that a huge point of the WoT is that our heroes can’t do it alone & that’s the point of the a’dam arc? 
Rafe: Forget Brandon. This is drama at its best. Writer 2 - go on. 
Writer 2: ok. Then Ishy shows up and knocks Egwene out & the Damane from the boats miles away shield Rand so Ishy can dialogue. But Egwene wake up & throws up a Shield. And Ishy throws fireballs at it for a couple minutes. Until Perrin can show up with a shield! 
Writer 1: What? 
Rafe: Love it. Let’s do it. 

This insistance that Egwene is the main character is getting old lol, the idea Rafe wanted her to be Dragon, it is verging on offensive towards the idea that a show can have well developed female characters, who don't in fact "steal" from the male moment. Rand saved Egwene from death, that is the fact of this scene, no Rand here then they are all dead, how much more powerful and heroic do you need to see Rand be in this moment. He stands down a Foresaken, while still untrained, and absolutely owns him. he took out about 20-30 seanchan with a flick of his wrist, again untrained, we have not seen a single Aes Sedai do that the most we have seen Egwene do is a big wind blast and some fire balls, I mean all we have seen anyone do really is fireballs (including Lanfer). 

 

People need to break out of the echo chamber and actually watch the show that is on TV in front of them and see the facts as they are. Yes you can question writing and editorial choices, but we are verging on just mistruths being paraded as facts and then wrapped up in a narrative for which there is no evidence. 

[Scarloc99]

26 minutes ago, Gypsum said:

 

And it will be repeated so long as we have TV, movies, and literature. There's something powerful and addictive to writers about the plot device that makes the character seem as if they are in mortal danger, even though the viewer/readers knows, at a logical level, that they are not because the show/book would not continue without them.

 

This was one of the best things about GOT, the author had no concerns with killing off a main character meaning that you could not really trust of your fav character really was safe. Real stakes, felt by both the characters but also the reader. 

[Elder_Haman]

13 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

This insistance that Egwene is the main character is getting old lol, the idea Rafe wanted her to be Dragon, it is verging on offensive towards the idea that a show can have well developed female characters, who don't in fact "steal" from the male moment.

Thank you. 
Egwene was not the main character of S2. She had the most emotionally impactful arc. But that doesn’t mean that the other characters - including Rand - did not have impactful arcs. 
 

Egwene will probably not get much to do in S3. Training with the Wise Ones will probably yield roughly the same screen time as Mat.