WoT Season 2 Episode 8: What Was Meant to Be

[Scarloc99]

10 minutes ago, Yamezt said:

Top of my head:

 

Book 2 - Siuan? or one of the Aes Sedai commented how they called the winds to speed up cuz they were in a rush and were so sad they flooded villages on the way, damaging crops and basically f up the weather. They were rushing to meet Moiraine and see to see Rand I think.

 

Book 3? Elayne tried being smart with Verin by saying blowing up the ground near a whitecloak(?) does not constitute using a weapon. Now Verin did give her a earful. But at the same time, if Elayne had the oaths and genuinely believed she complied, she would be to have done so. So I guess the interpretation of why certain events constitute the one power as a weapon is probably indoctrinated by the white tower.

 

and this is the thing, alot of the lore around the oaths is also wraped up in doctrine, what is a weapon, that is probably defined in a book somewhere in the white tower, I imagine there are lessons on these very things to ensure novices are conditioned so as not to think to far around the oaths. I imagine these lessons where defined and created by Black Ajah sisters as yet another form of control. 

 

but, that also suggests that conditioning can be broken and twisted, Moiraine has not been in the tower for 20 years, so she is alot more free to play around the edges of the oaths. 

[LightHelpMe]

1 hour ago, Yamezt said:

While she suspects that Sul'dam can channel, she doesn't actually know it would work.

It was clear by her explanation that she had already figured it out. And the double linking isn't possible either. The whole thing was a mess.

[Yamezt]

5 minutes ago, LightHelpMe said:

It was clear by her explanation that she had already figured it out. And the double linking isn't possible either. The whole thing was a mess.

 

Even if she had figured out, which seems like a huge leap of faith, it is still a tool to restrict rather than hurt. And the hurt was only of a mental form, not even physical. We only know she cannot phsyically hurt someone based on the water pitcher. 

 

I mean, single linking is already problematic. If the A'dam forms a link - Why does the Damane direct the flow when the Sul'dam heads the link? Everyone just choses to ignore that anyway because "magic"

 

Interesting thought - if only 1 woman wears the Domination Band (Male A'dam), does this mean the man can wrest control of the flow (in a link with a man and a woman, the man can wrest control). Actually can't recall much about them now.

[Ralph]

2 hours ago, LightHelpMe said:

I realize it was battle lust, but he didn't kill the Whitecloak that was trying to kill him. He killed the man who killed Hopper. And he wasn't there to fight Whitecloaks, he was there to fight Seanchan. I'm not talking about it holding up in court, I'm talking about what is going to do to Perrin. In the books, he only kills Whitecloaks in self defense, and he kills enemies in battle. He could easily see Eamon Valda as an enemy, but not Bornhald.

in the books he went out swinging because they were attacking the wolves.  not self defense. if it were, he would have used that as a defense in the silly trial.  it was defend his friend Hopper. I liked this change - just would have preferred it was quicker so it could be seen as an instinctive reaction not planned revenge

[Ralph]

1 hour ago, Scarloc99 said:

and this is the thing, alot of the lore around the oaths is also wraped up in doctrine, what is a weapon, that is probably defined in a book somewhere in the white tower, I imagine there are lessons on these very things to ensure novices are conditioned so as not to think to far around the oaths. I imagine these lessons where defined and created by Black Ajah sisters as yet another form of control. 

 

but, that also suggests that conditioning can be broken and twisted, Moiraine has not been in the tower for 20 years, so she is alot more free to play around the edges of the oaths. 

The Elayne one is a good comparison. but even Verin disagreeing is only saying because it is intended to harm them. without intention to harm she would have agreed.

 

to me the only question is can you argue the harm is unintentional when she clearly wanted to disrupt their channeling, and that may only be possible by harming them. 

[LightHelpMe]

58 minutes ago, Ralph said:

in the books he went out swinging because they were attacking the wolves.  not self defense. if it were, he would have used that as a defense in the silly trial.  it was defend his friend Hopper. I liked this change - just would have preferred it was quicker so it could be seen as an instinctive reaction not planned revenge

There was also a Whitecloak approaching with sword drawn, so he could have pled self defense. But Hopper being killed caused him to go into a frenzy. 

The trial was so stupid, but it did at least show Morgase's wisdom.

[LightHelpMe]

1 hour ago, Yamezt said:

Even if she had figured out, which seems like a huge leap of faith

Why is it a huge leap of faith for her to have figured it out, without any doubt, but not that she thought it might work? Her thought process on how it worked would be the same. Egwene is supposed to be super smart in the books, and as she is Rafe's favorite character that won't change in the show. And, she had A LOT of time to think in that cell.

 

The a'dam is a tool, but it is used to cause physical pain when Damane need to be punished. We saw that with both Egwene & Renna and with Nyaneave & Seta, so I don't understand why you think it only causes mental pain.

[Yamezt]

24 minutes ago, LightHelpMe said:

The a'dam is a tool, but it is used to cause physical pain when Damane need to be punished. We saw that with both Egwene & Renna and with Nyaneave & Seta, so I don't understand why you think it only causes mental pain.

 

I expressed myself poorly. I meant that the pain does not originate from a physical source (hence the reference to the pitcher).

[The_Watcher_And_Wanderer]

4 hours ago, LightHelpMe said:

I realize it was battle lust, but he didn't kill the Whitecloak that was trying to kill him. He killed the man who killed Hopper. And he wasn't there to fight Whitecloaks, he was there to fight Seanchan. I'm not talking about it holding up in court, I'm talking about what is going to do to Perrin. In the books, he only kills Whitecloaks in self defense, and he kills enemies in battle. He could easily see Eamon Valda as an enemy, but not Bornhald.

I still don’t like the fact that he actually killed Geofram, but considering that he was held prisoner and tortured in a Whitecloak camp I think he could reasonably see them as enemies and as threat. I mean it wasn’t Valda alone who captured and held him and Egwene. I suppose you could argue that Geofram was complicit with Perrin’s torture. Given the Whitecloak power structure its a bit fuzzy as to who was in charge of the Whitecloak camp but surely the Lord Captain’s protest would have held some sway. Maybe it’s not as cut and dry as I originally thought. 

[Yamezt]

Regardless, I do not think the A'dam is a weapon.

 

From recollection the book also has the limitation that a Damane cannot pick up anything they think is a weapon, and they can collar other marath'damane just fine.

 

The A'dam is really just a leash and at best it can torture. We know that Book Aes Sedai do not consider torture a "weapon" either from an oaths perspective. And the words TV Renna said in s2e06 are "Egwene, a damane cannot touch any object she believes to be a weapon." So, I personally never felt any issue with Egwene picking up the collar from that perspective.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Yamezt

[Yamezt]

Decided to look at the books for comparison (been a while since I opened them)

 

So the A'dam in the books:

1. Damane can't handle knives:

Quote

Egwene took a deep breath and reached for the hilt. A soft quiver ran through the muscles of her arm. As her hand came within a foot of the knife, a cramp suddenly contorted her fingers. Eyes fixed, she tried to force her hand closer. The cramp seized her  whole  arm,  knotting  muscles  to  her  shoulder.  With  a  groan,  she  sank  back, rubbing her arm and concentrating her thoughts on not touching the knife. Slowly, the pain began to lessen.

 

Min stared at her incredulously. "What ...? I don't understand."

 

"Damane  are  not  allowed  to  touch  a  weapon  of  any  kind."  She  worked  her arm, feeling the tightness go. "Even our meat is cut for us. I don't want to hurt myself, but  I  could  not  if  I  did  want  to.  No  damane  is  ever  left  alone  where  she  might  jump from a height —that window is nailed shut —or throw herself in a river."

 

2. Similar to the TV (the pitcher scene in the book) - can't handle anything they even think of as a weapon:

Quote

Egwene  went  on  dully,  as  if  the  other  woman  had  not  spoken.  "They  are training me, Min. The sul'dam and the a'dam are training me. I cannot touch anything I  even  think  of  as  a  weapon.

 

3. Yet Damane can touch the collar and lesh other Marath'damane. Clearly they don't view the collar or the act of leashing as a weapon/use of a weapon

Quote

"Aye, mayhap it will be as  you say. But I will remember it until I die. Ryma, help  me.  That  is  what  she  did  scream.  And  one  of  the  damane  did  fall  down  crying, 
and they did put one of those collars on the neck of the ... woman, and I ... I did run." 
 

 

The only issue left is if torture would trigger the A'dam's "weapon" limitation. And in the Books, Aes Sedai oaths against using the one power as a weapon isn't a limitation if they torture. And from point 2 above and TV - it is a perspective thing too.

So I definitely don't find an issue with Egwene collaring Renna, following a similar logic with the books

Edited October 11, 2023 by Yamezt

[Godoggo]

5 hours ago, Yamezt said:

 

I am probably in the minority, but I rather liked Egwene freed herself. It was a surprise when it happened, but it felt satisfying to me as a resolution.

 

I don't really have issues with Egwene touching the collar. While she suspects that Sul'dam can channel, she doesn't actually know it would work. She only worked it out for sure once the collar formed. I feel that in that heat of the situation she is hoping that it works and snares Renna - the intent to hurt psychically probably formed once she knew for sure it worked.

 

The thing that puzzled me more was - who was heading the link? But then the a'dam is always rather weird even in the novels because while the person wearing the braclet heads the link and therefore directs the flow, she can allow the collar-ed person to direct the flow in the books. It was always a strange rule.

I just have a fundmental problem with the world of TV writers WOT.  When you write fantasy, you establish rules.  The rule was, if you think of something as a weapon, you can't touch it, even if it is for a different use.  As a result, as soon as Egwene thought of using it as a weapon, she shouldn't be able to use it.  It's a TV trope that the victim gets to kill the oppressor, but it doesn't make sense here.  Let alone the fact that even if Egwene could have placed the collar, as soon as she gives pain to other, it would create a constantly increasing feedback loop until both would clearly die as each adam increases the pain exponentially to their damane.  

[Godoggo]

I've tried to look at the TV show without comparing it to the books.  To that end, I hated the first year as being incoherent while the second year (until the last episode), was exponentially better.  The problem overall is my impression that Rafe doesn't believe that Egwene and Nynaeve are strong characters in the book.  And he has an issue with the primary character.  Rand is the weakest character in the TV show, not the strongest channeller that has trouble coming to terms with his future role.  But in the TV show, they show us that Logain is so strong that he can't be held by no less than 3 women at a time.  Rand has already been shielded so much, that they should do a shield of the episode meme (I believe he has shielded 6 times all by an individual).  He has no training or proficiency in the sword.  It's frustrating that he has no arc.  At the same time, Egwene was not just a strong woman in the book, I suggest that she is the strongest woman in the book.  She faces everything and moves forward and becomes a supreme leader.  I'm not sure Rafe believes she or Nynaeve were sufficiently strong, so they intentionally gave them things that Rand did in the book.  

[LightHelpMe]

24 minutes ago, Godoggo said:

I just have a fundmental problem with the world of TV writers WOT.  When you write fantasy, you establish rules.  The rule was, if you think of something as a weapon, you can't touch it, even if it is for a different use.  As a result, as soon as Egwene thought of using it as a weapon, she shouldn't be able to use it.  It's a TV trope that the victim gets to kill the oppressor, but it doesn't make sense here.  Let alone the fact that even if Egwene could have placed the collar, as soon as she gives pain to other, it would create a constantly increasing feedback loop until both would clearly die as each adam increases the pain exponentially to their damane.  

This is exactly my biggest problem with this episode. The writers ignore established rules when it's convenient. Do enough of that, and your world building falls apart.

 

They could have give given Egwene her revenge kill without violating pre-established rules. Nyaneave and Elayne execute their plan (why set that up and then no pay off?). Of course they would have asked Seta how to remove an a'dam. Elayne disables Renna while Nyaneave removes Egwene's collar. Then Egwene is free to collar Renna and get her revenge. 

 

That would also put all 3 girls on top of the tower ready to face off against Ishamael, but I digress. There were a few scenes that could have been better and not created any in universe problems with just some minor tweaks.

[Yamezt]

18 minutes ago, Godoggo said:

The rule was, if you think of something as a weapon, you can't touch it, even if it is for a different use.  As a result, as soon as Egwene thought of using it as a weapon, she shouldn't be able to use it. 

Egwene was able to touch the pitcher later in the TV. This occured at the ending of S2e06. She poured water for Renna and then Renna poured the water away. In fact Renna spent episode 6 training her to learn that pitcher should not be thought of as a weapon. 

 

So it is established in the TV that the weapon is a matter of perspective.

 

21 minutes ago, Godoggo said:

Let alone the fact that even if Egwene could have placed the collar, as soon as she gives pain to other, it would create a constantly increasing feedback loop until both would clearly die as each adam increases the pain exponentially to their damane. 

 

The book has similar rules about the a'dam but does not consider holding the collar or leashing as touching a weapon. 

 

I have some issue with the pain that transmit between the A'dam - but primarily the scenes where the Damane punches the Sul'dam and the Sul'dam experiences no pain and doesn't even flinches. However,  the Damane flies off in pain (Egwene punching Renna and vice versa).

 

I don't really have an issue with feedback loop as such as there is a possibility that the a'dam's pain is tuned specfically to pain experienced from physical contact. It could be cleaner, but not a glaring issue an issue for me.

[Jaysen Gore]

1 hour ago, Yamezt said:

Egwene was able to touch the pitcher later in the TV. This occured at the ending of S2e06. She poured water for Renna and then Renna poured the water away. In fact Renna spent episode 6 training her to learn that pitcher should not be thought of as a weapon. 

 

So it is established in the TV that the weapon is a matter of perspective.

 

 

The book has similar rules about the a'dam but does not consider holding the collar or leashing as touching a weapon. 

 

I have some issue with the pain that transmit between the A'dam - but primarily the scenes where the Damane punches the Sul'dam and the Sul'dam experiences no pain and doesn't even flinches. However,  the Damane flies off in pain (Egwene punching Renna and vice versa).

 

I don't really have an issue with feedback loop as such as there is a possibility that the a'dam's pain is tuned specfically to pain experienced from physical contact. It could be cleaner, but not a glaring issue an issue for me.

Ah, but that involved a physical strike - consider the earlier scene when Nynaeve's Damane got shot in the neck, and Nyn reacted like a mosquito had bit her. So they showed that the pain transfer from damane to sul'dam was minimal.

 

I do agree that if the sul'dam takes physical damage, the damane should feel it double, even unto death, but that's why Egwene was able to survive the battle of wills to get Renna to drop the collar.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

On 10/9/2023 at 3:41 AM, Scarloc99 said:

Just realised this, does this mean no Olver? 

Wait, does it!?! NOOO!!

[LTL]

8 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

I need to go back to episode 1 but at the very start didn't Moiraine destroy the wall of the inn to kill a load of trollocs? That act may well have put innocents at risk, all that flying rock, the chance of the inn collapsing, if you extrapolate this out then Moiraine destroying the ships is a similair thing. Innocents might be hurt but it is for the greater good. 
 

This was clearly in defence of her life with trollocs charging towards her so it is not relevant to the ship scenario.

[Maximillion]

4 hours ago, Godoggo said:

I've tried to look at the TV show without comparing it to the books.  To that end, I hated the first year as being incoherent while the second year (until the last episode), was exponentially better.  The problem overall is my impression that Rafe doesn't believe that Egwene and Nynaeve are strong characters in the book.  And he has an issue with the primary character.  Rand is the weakest character in the TV show, not the strongest channeller that has trouble coming to terms with his future role.  But in the TV show, they show us that Logain is so strong that he can't be held by no less than 3 women at a time.  Rand has already been shielded so much, that they should do a shield of the episode meme (I believe he has shielded 6 times all by an individual).  He has no training or proficiency in the sword.  It's frustrating that he has no arc.  At the same time, Egwene was not just a strong woman in the book, I suggest that she is the strongest woman in the book.  She faces everything and moves forward and becomes a supreme leader.  I'm not sure Rafe believes she or Nynaeve were sufficiently strong, so they intentionally gave them things that Rand did in the book.  

Very good post.

Disappointed overall with the way the writers have brought Rand to the screen.  Same with Lan.

 

 That said, i think they realised they had gone overboard with Mary Sue moments for Nynaeve in the first series and made her less of an all conquering galactus in series 2. 
 

Second series was so much better than the first overall otherwise, except for the last episode - assuming you can just come to terms with and let the inconsistencies slide.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Maximillion

[Scarloc99]

5 hours ago, Godoggo said:

I just have a fundmental problem with the world of TV writers WOT.  When you write fantasy, you establish rules.  The rule was, if you think of something as a weapon, you can't touch it, even if it is for a different use.  As a result, as soon as Egwene thought of using it as a weapon, she shouldn't be able to use it.  It's a TV trope that the victim gets to kill the oppressor, but it doesn't make sense here.  Let alone the fact that even if Egwene could have placed the collar, as soon as she gives pain to other, it would create a constantly increasing feedback loop until both would clearly die as each adam increases the pain exponentially to their damane.  

The collar rules do not break any established TV lore, and given that we have never seen 1 damane collar another in this way in the books any statement that it isn't possible is opinion, the simple fact is that in the TV show it very much is possible, and the lore backs that up. 

I posted about this just 1 page ago but very briefly. 

Renna tells Egwene laughing, The collar will have no effect on me, that means that to Renna the Collar is not a weapon. If Egwene had used it to beat or to hit or cut Renna then yes, she would be stopped, but she is using teh collar for it's intended purpose and, I imagine it has never been programmed into the Collar to prevent a dammane using it on anyone, because, how would a Damane actually collar a wildling, seeing as Damane are lower then all. 

 

So the Collar is not a "banned" weapon because it only affects enemies of the Seanchan, it is not a weapon in Renna's eyes because it is not going to affect her and it is not a weapon in Egwenes eyes, because as a damane she is simply either collaring another Damane, or putting a nice collar on someone that will have no effect. 

 

As for the feedback loop, did you watch the following scene. Renna was screaming in pain, Egwene, was clearly in pain, but, had learnt to channel and direct it in a way that she knew she could outlast Renna, Renna told her, if you continue to hurt me we will both die. Egwene didn't care about that. 
 

[Requiem]

10 hours ago, Godoggo said:

I just have a fundmental problem with the world of TV writers WOT.  When you write fantasy, you establish rules.  The rule was, if you think of something as a weapon, you can't touch it, even if it is for a different use.  As a result, as soon as Egwene thought of using it as a weapon, she shouldn't be able to use it.  It's a TV trope that the victim gets to kill the oppressor, but it doesn't make sense here.  Let alone the fact that even if Egwene could have placed the collar, as soon as she gives pain to other, it would create a constantly increasing feedback loop until both would clearly die as each adam increases the pain exponentially to their damane.  

 

Would you consider handcuffs a weapon?

Is tying someone up with rope using a weapon?

 

The a'dam restrains someone and a restrained person is certainly vulnerable to being attacked but that doesn't make it a weapon.

[Samt]

2 hours ago, Requiem said:

 

Would you consider handcuffs a weapon?

Is tying someone up with rope using a weapon?

 

Wrong questions.  As the water jug shows us, the question is not, "Is this object inherently a weapon?"  Water jugs are not designed as weapons.  Egwene could not pick it up due to her own intent.  Ropes and handcuffs can be used as weapons, just like water jugs.  And, as we see when Egwene hangs Renna using the a'dam, a'dam can also be used as weapons.  And critically, that seems to be Egwene's plan when she picks it up.  That is the problem.  

 

It doesn't matter if an a'dam is inherently a weapon.  Egwene intended to use it as one. Just like she wanted to use the water jug as a weapon.  Why could she pick up one of them and not the other?

[SinisterDeath]

50 minutes ago, Samt said:

And, as we see when Egwene hangs Renna using the a'dam, a'dam can also be used as weapons.  And critically, that seems to be Egwene's plan when she picks it up.  That is the problem.  

 

It doesn't matter if an a'dam is inherently a weapon.  Egwene intended to use it as one. Just like she wanted to use the water jug as a weapon.  Why could she pick up one of them and not the other?

That hinges on premeditation.

 

Aside from Egwene saying "I will kill you" an episode before.
Can you know for certain that Egwene knowingly planned to murder Renna with that a'dam? 

Did we have a "this is what Egwene thinks" bubble above her head? Can you read her mind? I can't...

 

Her "plan" could have been simply to get Renna to free her.

The "murder" was passion, not "planned".

[Mirefox]

Pages and pages of arguing because the show can’t consistently demonstrate its own lore.

 

And some wonder why we continually argue about the writing quality…

[Godoggo]

33 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

That hinges on premeditation.

 

Aside from Egwene saying "I will kill you" an episode before.
Can you know for certain that Egwene knowingly planned to murder Renna with that a'dam? 

Did we have a "this is what Egwene thinks" bubble above her head? Can you read her mind? I can't...

 

Her "plan" could have been simply to get Renna to free her.

The "murder" was passion, not "planned".

It's not about Murder.  It's about the thought of using an item as a weapon against your Suldam.  Yes, they can use the a'dam against another woman.  But not against your Suldam.  That's the rule.  You can't use anything you perceive as a weapon against your suldam.  Egwene was clearly trying to use an a'dam as a weapon against her suldam.  It's frustrating.  And prime, give them more time for character development.  Mat's change was very quick.  Why the dagger became a light saber and how Mat knew that it would act that way?  Also, how did Loial survive the light saber (admittedly, most of season 1 stunk and maybe we need to conveniently just forget 80% of the first season)