WoT Season 2 Episode 7: Daes Dae'Mar

[DreadLord31]

I love it that other people have finale piled on @DigificWriter ... who A) can't admit when you're wrong about an assertion; we can go back and read that you were SURE that the in the show Moiraine was stilled. I thought it could be 50/50, but then I was - flatly wrong - that after 206 I was sure that Moiraine was stilled. I was wrong. So were you. 

 

B) can't admit that these writers make mistakes and clearly at points don't entirely know what they're doing. For example, they have 100% ret-con'd the fact that they 'fake-out deathed' Loial with the Dagger at the end of 108.  Yes, I believe you that the costume designer was told "damane can't take off the collar unless they die". And I also 100% believe that then Sarah N or somebody said -- that A) is not the case in the lore/story of the books and B) won't work for the show either. And then they went, oops, ok - that's not the case. Sorry CGI and Costume people. I guess we're making you look dumb. 

 

As @SinisterDeath has pointed out - they've actually kept the lore of the books in the show - even if they go about it in a round-about or different way.

 

But this is WAFO. I'm not 100% disagreeing with you. This show has proven over and over and over again that they LOVE fake-out deaths. So Egwene is due. Isn't she the only of the EF5 plus Lan/Moiraine we haven't seen fake-out deathed? 

 

 

[Mirefox]

Sometimes I wish I could be a fly on the wall in the writers' room.  I'd love to hear the conversation around Mat.  I imagine it would be something like this:

 

A: "Ok, team, we need to get Mat to Falme."

B: "We do?  Didn't we just spend last episode having him say he'll go and then giving him a reason not to?"

A: "Yes, but now we need him there."

B: "Why?"

A: "It's in the books."

B: "Oh, so lets get him there the way he went in the books."

A: "Can't do that.  Forget about the books."

B: "But you just said..."

A: "Not now, dammit, we need to figure this out."

B: "Ok, well how far is it?"

A: "About 1500 Miles."

B: "..."

B: "Well, we could give him a motivation; something to chase.  The dagger, maybe?  Or the horn?"

A: "The what?  Oh yeah, I forgot about those.  No, that's too much work."

B: "Jerry over there did some good work on Episodes 5 and 6.  Maybe he has an idea?"

A: "Jerry, pitch me something."
J: "Are you ready for this?  We could hit him on the head, then cut to him in Tear."

A: "Perfect.  Jerry, you really are a wunderkind."

 

 

 

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

Yes, I believe you that the costume designer was told "damane can't take off the collar unless they die".

100%. Although I don't think this is a 'we don't know what we're doing' deal. It's a compartmentalization issue. The job the costume designer was given was probably very detailed about Seanchan culture. They were probably told that damane are slaves and never take this thing off and then asked to design something around it. And when they were interviewed, they simply responded along the lines of what went into their choices.

 

I guarantee you that the collars will come off and it won't take death (not even of the fake out variety) to accomplish it. 

[DreadLord31]

3 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Sometimes I wish I could be a fly on the wall in the writers' room.  I'd love to hear the conversation around Mat.  I imagine it would be something like this:

 

A: "Ok, team, we need to get Mat to Falme."

B: "We do?  Didn't we just spend last episode having him say he'll go and then giving him a reason not to?"

A: "Yes, but now we need him there."

B: "Why?"

A: "It's in the books."

B: "Oh, so lets get him there the way he went in the books."

A: "Can't do that.  Forget about the books."

B: "But you just said..."

A: "Not now, dammit, we need to figure this out."

B: "Ok, well how far is it?"

A: "About 1500 Miles."

B: "..."

B: "Well, we could give him a motivation; something to chase.  The dagger, maybe?  Or the horn?"

A: "The what?  Oh yeah, I forgot about those.  No, that's too much work."

B: "Jerry over there did some good work on Episodes 5 and 6.  Maybe he has an idea?"

A: "Jerry, pitch me something."
J: "Are you ready for this?  We could hit him on the head, then cut to him in Tear."

A: "Perfect.  Jerry, you really are a wunderkind."

 

 

 

 

This made my day. That's exactly how I view the writers room too. 

Can you do this again but have the question be: "We told people that the a'dam can't be taken off unless the Damane dies. But we need Egwene to have the collar off. Go!"

[DigificWriter]

4 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

we can go back and read that you were SURE that the in the show Moiraine was stilled

 

I never once said that I believed she'd been Stilled; what I have consistently said is that the writers approached the crafting of her story from the perspective of her having been Stilled. I also acknowledged the possibility of said perspective being revealed to have been a red herring.

[Elder_Haman]

4 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Sometimes I wish I could be a fly on the wall in the writers' room.  I'd love to hear the conversation around Mat.  I imagine it would be something like this:

 

A: "Ok, team, we need to get Mat to Falme."

B: "We do?  Didn't we just spend last episode having him say he'll go and then giving him a reason not to?"

A: "Yes, but now we need him there."

B: "Why?"

A: "It's in the books."

B: "Oh, so lets get him there the way he went in the books."

A: "Can't do that.  Forget about the books."

B: "But you just said..."

A: "Not now, dammit, we need to figure this out."

B: "Ok, well how far is it?"

A: "About 1500 Miles."

B: "..."

B: "Well, we could give him a motivation; something to chase.  The dagger, maybe?  Or the horn?"

A: "The what?  Oh yeah, I forgot about those.  No, that's too much work."

B: "Jerry over there did some good work on Episodes 5 and 6.  Maybe he has an idea?"

A: "Jerry, pitch me something."
J: "Are you ready for this?  We could hit him on the head, then cut to him in Tear."

A: "Perfect.  Jerry, you really are a wunderkind."

I mean we, as book readers, know that Traveling is a thing. So do the producers. I suspect its designed to weave a little of that mystery in. After all, it's ISHY that really wants Mat in Falme for some reason. Why wouldn't he use whatever means were necessary to accomplish that task?

[SinisterDeath]

9 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

The Saidar and Saidin is a great example of exactly why its hard to accept that they are sticking to book lore.  The writers went out of their way to obfuscate the point and it is blindingly obvious.  I've already brought this up but from the very moment the show began, Liandrin completely gets it wrong showing that either the writers don't understand the book or they've changed the nature of the One Power for the show.  And if you want to say it is an unreliable narrator issue, then the problems are even bigger and Liandrin is monunmentally stupid.  Moiraine's asinine speech to Rand could have been easily given had she said she can't teach him because men and women use different sides of the power and can't teach each other.  Instead, she gave a nonsensical answer.  The writers had it right there and couldn't bring themselves to say it.  It wasn't until the needed a plot device that they decided to mention a difference - 15 episodes into the show.

 

As for seeing the weaves, they deliberately tried to obfuscate that as well.  They made it look like Logain would possibly see Nyn's weaves.  At no point did they have a character say something like "what is he/she doing?"  Even in this episode they made it look like Siuan could see Rand's weaves.  All until they needed the plot device.

For the record, S1E7 when Rand had his Flashback, we discovered it was Rand not Egwene that knocked the Trolloc off the ledge in the Ways with the One Power. Egwene didn't see his weaves.

So no, they did not wait 15 episodes to show that women couldn't see men channeling.

[Windigo]

3 hours ago, Guire said:

So I was a soldier long long ago.  One of my digs at show all along has been that OG RJ wrote series from a soldiers perspective, even if many readers never caught it.  He used weather in books often to show sort of the health of the world, as sort of a background sountrack, or as a real world obstacle.  Jordan also used miscommunication or lack of ability to communicate well as parts of story.  

 

Our show writers have probably never been farmers, construction workers, or soldiers.  So for writers who have probably spent most of their adult lives indoors or in Southern California like environments always on internet or with cell phones, modernizing story also means ignoring weather and instant communication.  I do expect brush fire haze or mud slides at some point.

There is quite a bit in the books that was influenced by not only his time as a soldier, but a Veteran of Vietnam. The miscommunications, working at cross purposes, or how disconnected and ineffective the Forsaken or even some leaders who are. 
When you read his interviews on war hero's and his time in the service you can see how it was a guiding force in how he wrote his hero's. 

[Agitel]

Lanfear causing chaos and not just creating a gateway to Rand, while

Spoiler

Verin at the same very convenient time to free Rand, is a nice touch.

I was wondering about why Lanfear was doing as she did, but there is a sense and foreshadowing to it.

[SinisterDeath]

10 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Sometimes I wish I could be a fly on the wall in the writers' room.  I'd love to hear the conversation around Mat.  I imagine it would be something like this:

 

A: "Ok, team, we need to get Mat to Falme."

B: "We do?  Didn't we just spend last episode having him say he'll go and then giving him a reason not to?"

A: "Yes, but now we need him there."

B: "Why?"

A: "It's in the books."

B: "Oh, so lets get him there the way he went in the books."

A: "Can't do that.  Forget about the books."

B: "But you just said..."

A: "Not now, dammit, we need to figure this out."

B: "Ok, well how far is it?"

A: "About 1500 Miles."

B: "..."

B: "Well, we could give him a motivation; something to chase.  The dagger, maybe?  Or the horn?"

A: "The what?  Oh yeah, I forgot about those.  No, that's too much work."

B: "Jerry over there did some good work on Episodes 5 and 6.  Maybe he has an idea?"

A: "Jerry, pitch me something."
J: "Are you ready for this?  We could hit him on the head, then cut to him in Tear."

A: "Perfect.  Jerry, you really are a wunderkind."

I'm just pondering if it was sniveling Barthane's that knocked Mat out... or if it was a certain Warder...

[Mirefox]

9 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

 

This made my day. That's exactly how I view the writers room too. 

Can you do this again but have the question be: "We told people that the a'dam can't be taken off unless the Damane dies. But we need Egwene to have the collar off. Go!"

I’m glad to bring a smile but my creative well has run dry.  I’ll have to pull a George Costanza on this one and leave on a high note.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Mirefox

[SinisterDeath]

Other random thought. 

Did the exploding gate CGI look really crappy to anyone else? Or did my stream quality just randomly degrade and make it look like something I'd see on daytime TV?

[DreadLord31]

Alright, I'll try: 

 

Writer 1: Well, what happened in the books?

Sarah: It was more like a dog collar and a button in the back unlocked it.

Writer 2: But our designer made a collar that covers their whole chest and there is no button.

Writer 3: Ok, ok, I got it. Let's have Egwene attempt to kill Renna, but it does double to her. She dies fighting against Renna. Make-up people do their thing. Egwene is dead. Collar pops off. Nynaeve comes in. Power explodes - tears - Egwene healed. Walah.

Rafe: No. We're getting really bad feedback on non-death, deaths. 

Writer 1: Ok, ok, I got it. Nynaeve puts a collar on Renna, commands Renna to take off the collar on Egwene. 

Writer 2: How does that makes sense? You just said they have to die to take it off. 

Writer 1: Oh, well then - how are Nynaeve and Elayne going to rescue Egwene? They put their only a'dam on that random sul'dam. 

Writer 3: Ok, ok, ok. I got it. Our only option if we're keeping the a'dam cannot be removed unless damane dies & we are not doing more fake-out deaths - is... obviously ... we leave Egwene as a damane. 

Rafe: No. Egwene has to get free this episode. 

 

Silence. 

 

Ok. Then we just go with the books. It can be removed with a button in the back.

[SinisterDeath]

2 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

Ok. Then we just go with the books. It can be removed with a button in the back.

Ok.. Hear me out.
A weave of spirit... into the the A'dam that clicks an internal button that short-circuits it telling the device that the Damane is dead. 

[fra85uk]

Just now, SinisterDeath said:

Ok.. Hear me out.
A weave of spirit... into the the A'dam that clicks an internal button that short-circuits it telling the device that the Damane is dead. 

 

 

Is it WoT or a basic course of biosensors? 😄

[Elder_Haman]

24 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Liandrin completely gets it wrong showing that either the writers don't understand the book or they've changed the nature of the One Power for the show.  And if you want to say it is an unreliable narrator issue, then the problems are even bigger and Liandrin is monunmentally stupid.

Why is it monumentally stupid? It is what Liandrin believes. She's a Red and therefore inclined to believe that male channelers are basically wild animals. This is the nature of religiosity - sects develop with different core beliefs around the same issue. (see, e.g., transsubstantiation) The White Tower is a quasi-religious organization with various sects (ajahs) that have slightly different interpretations of the fundamental principles of how the OP works.

[SinisterDeath]

Just now, fra85uk said:

 

 

Is it WoT or a basic course of biosensors? 😄

Yes

[Windigo]

3 hours ago, Agitel said:

Motion smoothing?! Vivid picture settings?! Color saturation set to cool?! Give me that remote now.

Would not even know what most of those are, my kids would set the tv settings, but they all moved out years ago, so it is set where ever they left it, until I tried to fix the too dark for WoT. 

 

[Elder_Haman]

3 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Ok.. Hear me out.
A weave of spirit... into the the A'dam that clicks an internal button that short-circuits it telling the device that the Damane is dead. 

Which is basically the books. (Isn't it spirit that works the 'so cunningly designed it's nearly invisible' latch?)

[fra85uk]

New model of  A'dam:

 

[DreadLord31]

13 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Ok.. Hear me out.
A weave of spirit... into the the A'dam that clicks an internal button that short-circuits it telling the device that the Damane is dead. 

 

If I'm being honest. I'm poking fun at the writers... of course. But they do get paid a lot and do know where they're going. So in reality, what I think they've set up is this:  A) the a'dam can only be 'healed' by being on a woman's neck ; B) Rand wants to come and rescue Egwene ; he's headed to Falme and Lanfear is with him, C) Elayne and Nynaeve have captured a Sul'dam. D) Egwene is going to kill Renna. 

What a costume designer said in interview carries no weight in my mind.

 

So actually, what I do think is likely to happen is something like: Rand can 'unheal' the a'dam with Saidin. 

Or Lanfear builds trust with Rand by removing it - it's just more knowledge lost to the Age of Legends. 

Or LAN has read something at some point that means he figured out how to take it off. 

Or the captured Sul'dam coughs up info that is suppose to be a secret, they actually can take the collars off. 

 

What I'm sure of is this. Egwene will have the collar off by the end of the episode and a collar will be on Renna. 100% guarunteed. And also, and I promise you I haven't seen the episode (how would I right?). I bet we get a line like, "Must be hard thinking your whole life you're a sul'dam, when actually you're a damane." ❤️‍🔥 Riight?

Edited September 29, 2023 by DreadLord31

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, DreadLord31 said:

Or LAN has read something at some point that means he figured out how to take it off. 

LMAO

[Agitel]

Do we have a runtime for S2E8? I don't know if those are revealed in advance. I really feel like 60 minutes can't do justice to the remaining plot points.

[Mirefox]

8 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Why is it monumentally stupid? It is what Liandrin believes. She's a Red and therefore inclined to believe that male channelers are basically wild animals. This is the nature of religiosity - sects develop with different core beliefs around the same issue. (see, e.g., transsubstantiation) The White Tower is a quasi-religious organization with various sects (ajahs) that have slightly different interpretations of the fundamental principles of how the OP works.

There are 4.9 million words in The Wheel of Time and not one of them was ever used by an Aes Sedai to conflate the two halves of the power.  There absolutely were sects in the Tower and there were plenty of beliefs around the One Power, but the distinction between Saidin and Saidar and the Dark One’s taint specifically on one half (not a taint created by man) was a fundamental as breathing.

[Mirefox]

10 minutes ago, Windigo said:

Would not even know what most of those are, my kids would set the tv settings, but they all moved out years ago, so it is set where ever they left it, until I tried to fix the too dark for WoT. 

 

For us boomers, soap opera visuals = bad.