WoT Season 2 Episode 7: Daes Dae'Mar

[Wassup]

Can anyone explain why this episode was named Daes Dae'Mar?

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

It was in Cairhien and about power struggles.

 

Plus dropping the Old Tongue is just cool. But seems fairly straightforward, and as Aes Sedai invented the Great Game, concentrating on Moiraine and Suian as they try to rest control of Rand from each other as Lanfear saunters in and takes him away seems reasonably fitting.

[DreadLord31]

5 hours ago, MarcusM said:

Quadrupled down? What did I miss?

So I believe all of them were from Verin in dialogue with Moiraine. But the first one was back in Ep2 around the 29th minute… Verin says she’ll go to the Tower and find books that might prove useful. “Prophecies that speak of Toman Head, of battles in the sky, a sword of flame, and a branded hand that wields it.” 
 

A similar line was said two more times though I forget exactly where. But then in this past episode at about the 33min mark Moiraine says something like they want you to go to Falme because “the Dragon is suppose to proclaim himself there, bannered across the sky in fire.” 
 

And then, about the 50 min mark Verin repeats basically that same line. 

[The_Watcher_And_Wanderer]

On 9/28/2023 at 8:24 PM, Pandemonium said:

Can't say I love this episode, which is too bad after the momentum from last 3 episodes.  

Gitara's foretelling felt very underwhelming.  Usually the cold openings are great, but this one was rushed and.the acting felt odd.  Matt's hallucination scene was just really weird and I don't think provided that much insight into any character other than Ishamael.  

 

Bathanes darkfriend turn and sudden demise was way too abrupt.  Lanfear never attacked a city head on like that before in the books.  The whole thing where they said a forsaken is not strong enough to still a sister is ridiculous. 

 

Siuan seems so out of character.  They are doing way too much storytelling here.  Rand is so weak and he is heading into the final episode

 

Egwene and Perrin were best things about this episode.  

 

Yikes, I would say this is one of the worst episodes, but not as bad as season 1 episode 8.  

 

I have really tried to promote positivity this whole season and tried to get people involved watching the show.  I think this show still needs another 5-10 minutes per episode--- this was the most rushed episode for me.  

 

 

 

Remember that one of RJ’s themes in WOT was people having incomplete knowledge and yet still acting on what they have. I think the assertion that one Forsaken does not have the power to still an AS is an example of just that and illustrates that the AS of the Third Age just don’t understand the full scope of the one power. While they realize that the Forsaken are very powerful they are still underestimating their power and just how powerful a channeler can be. In essence when the say no one Forsaken could still an AS what they are really saying is that no one channeler could still an AS. I believe that in reality Moiraine was not stilled because Ishy did not want her stilled, he is up to something. 

 

On 9/28/2023 at 10:12 PM, Finnssss22 said:

[The_Watcher_And_Wanderer]

On 9/28/2023 at 9:21 PM, Agitel said:

Hmm...

 

I like and dislike them leaving with Lanfear. I see how it can work, but it still rankles a bit. Rand had a sort of truce with her at times... Feels like a change for Moiraine to be with a Forsaken. But maybe not. It's just more explicit and direct. She was aware of Asmodean.

 

And Lanfear and Ishy aren't exactly playing the same game. Some of their means may overlap a little.

 

BUT WHAT ABOUT MAT COME ON? WHERE'S MY BOY?

 

Even with these changes, I feel like this show could really use ten episodes a season for pacing and development purposes.

Well remember that even in the books Mat didn’t become particularly interesting until book 3. I’m really hoping the show will follow suit and Mat will really begin to shine in season 3.

[The_Watcher_And_Wanderer]

On 9/28/2023 at 8:43 PM, Finnssss22 said:

I highly doubt that Tea did anything other than put Mat to sleep. Everything after was Ishamael's doing in TAR.

One big con on Mat to set up yet another arrow aimed at breaking Rand.

Everything Ishy has done this season is to throw as many angles of pain and torment at Rand through his friends.

Just like everything Ishy did in season 1 was to manipulate Rand into breaking his Seal and fully setting him free.

Well of course that is what is going on. In fact, Mat’s entire portrayal in the show is just a clever ruse concocted by Ishy and it will ultimately be revealed that Mat is really a fun loving trixter who likes to release badgers in the town square and who has a perfectly nice and sober mother and a good and loyal father who is more an expert on horse flesh than human flesh 😉😆  

Edited September 30, 2023 by The_Watcher_And_Wanderer

[The_Watcher_And_Wanderer]

*****WARNING There will be book spoilers in this post*****
 

The one thing I really hated about this episode and that I consider to be the biggest misstep of the series so far was Suian’s portrayal in this episode. Having Suian abandon her and Moiraine plan in favor of tower law is pure blasphemy!! I really loved the stick to your guns come hell or high water Suian from the books. Hell, if her own stilling wasn’t enough to stop her then surly Moiraine’s wouldn’t be either!  Perhaps the writers think introducing some conflict between Suian and Moiraine will make things more juicy and maybe being deposed and stilled even after siding with The Tower will add to her resolve to prop up Salidar.  Still I hate seeing Suian and Moiraine’s bond broken. I’m 

Edited September 30, 2023 by The_Watcher_And_Wanderer

[Gary Again]

I didn't even want to get into the Siuan part because I felt I was piling on at that point but she just completely threw away everything her and Moiraine have been working for 20 years and Lan as well. Made me respect Moiraine more for not telling either of them anything lol.

 

Elaida thinking that chaining up Rand and then just dragging him to the last battle was one of the worst ideas in the book so to see Siuan take that point of view is just sad, she was smarter than that. I can already see the meme of Siuan, Elaida and Sevanna and someone having to pick the difference and there is none. Makes me wonder what Elaida would even argue as she clearly would have just done the same thing that Siuan did. I can't see a way this ages well for either Siuan or Lan after the box.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Gary Again

[Windigo]

11 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

I always saw that as almost like a feedback event, we see it through the books, Egwene stills one of the dark sisters guarding them in tear. I think that is a specific situation that can't be anticipated like a "stilling" 

True, those situations feel more like the ones where Aes Sedai burn themselves out or still themselves when they pull too much or when using a Ter'angreal. There is also the fact that what they know is limited to the fact that Most Aes Sedai are much weaker than the Forsaken or Rand, or even Egwene. 

[Windigo]

8 hours ago, Skipp said:

As for Suians turn in this episode, does anyone think she might have been complused? She hasn't really prepared the tower to support the Dragon.  Despite her concerns with Moiraine and her progress(even if I understand some of them) it seems like quite a turn and since they setup the idea of complusion earlier in the season....... maybe?  Even her line "It would have been easier if you had been born a girl"  really sounds like something Liandrin would say.

I do not think she was compelled. I think they pushed the book story a little too far with her character, but I think her fears of Rand and loss of trust in Moiraine made her fall back on tower law and thinking at this point the only way to get control of the situation is to follow the laws. It also does not mean that without Moiraine there, she hasn't had many others telling her things or influencing her. 
Just as in the books anything she would have done to try and prepare the tower would have been counteracted by both political enemies and the unknown enemy the Black Ajah. The tower has been divided and diminished long before Siuan was Amyrlin , and continued that decline. 
Pretty sure with Lanfear's comment about a broken Amyrlin means that Lanfear will take some of Mesana's role in destroying the rest of the White Tower. 

[Windigo]

4 hours ago, Wassup said:

Can anyone explain why this episode was named Daes Dae'Mar?

Daes Dae'Mar Old Tongue for "The Game Of Houses"
I think there are many possibilities, and I am sure there are plenty more that may not be obvious yet between Lan, Siuan and Moiraine, Vera and others. Plus what is Allana really up too?
1. The Aes Sedai invented the Game.
2. The Damodred family maneuvering
3. Lanfear playing games with Rand and trying to out play Moiraine
4. Anvaere out playing Liandrin her son and Lanfear
5. Lanfear playing her own game not Ishy's
6. Ishy playing Min and Mat like pieces on a board.
7. ht/ to GRR Martin and GOt with talk of a wedding

 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

3 hours ago, Windigo said:

14 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

I always saw that as almost like a feedback event, we see it through the books, Egwene stills one of the dark sisters guarding them in tear. I think that is a specific situation that can't be anticipated like a "stilling" 

True, those situations feel more like the ones where Aes Sedai burn themselves out or still themselves when they pull too much or when using a Ter'angreal. There is also the fact that what they know is limited to the fact that Most Aes Sedai are much weaker than the Forsaken or Rand, or even Egwene. 

The description in the book is specific - Egwene (in the dream) shapes a shield and then deliberately makes the edges sharp (reasoning that this is necessary as the target already holds the source) - Nynave later tries the same thing against Moghedien when they fight in Tanchio but cannot hold the edge while forcing it home. 

 

As Egwene's target was using a lesser dream ter'angreal at the time and only part asleep it is  possible that either the dreaming made her more vulnerable or Egwene made subconscious use of her dreaming abilities to strengthen her attack but it was most certainly stilling (once the target was fully unconscious) not burning out.    

 

Rand at Dumai's Well was also stilling as those sisters were later healed.

[EmreY]

4 hours ago, The_Watcher_And_Wanderer said:

surly Moiraine

 

Freudian slip, but it fits. 🙂 

[DaddyFinn]

7 hours ago, The_Watcher_And_Wanderer said:

*****WARNING There will be book spoilers in this post*****
 

The one thing I really hated about this episode and that I consider to be the biggest misstep of the series so far was Suian’s portrayal in this episode. Having Suian abandon her and Moiraine plan in favor of tower law is pure blasphemy!! I really loved the stick to your guns come hell or high water Suian from the books. Hell, if her own stilling wasn’t enough to stop her then surly Moiraine’s wouldn’t be either!  Perhaps the writers think introducing some conflict between Suian and Moiraine will make things more juicy and maybe being deposed and stilled even after siding with The Tower will add to her resolve to prop up Salidar.  Still I hate seeing Suian and Moiraine’s bond broken. I’m 

Maybe it was all a scam from Mo&Siuan and everyone bought it completely? WAFO I guess

[Vartija]

The way Siuan acted in this episode is just so different from the book that one just has to shrug it off as a major change and try to live with it. I could see it as an accelerant to future events so that Siuan's deposing can happen early in S3. I'm kind of curious if they'll try a redemption arc with her or if they're paving the way for her exit from the series entirely. With the way Lan referenced suicide as a likely fate for stilled AS I immediately thought it might be foreshadowing for Siuan. With the Moi/Siuan schism added to it it would make sense that she feels her entire life is falling apart. 

 

Siuan is a solid character in the books but honestly her show portrayl has been quite off from the start. She came off like a cruel tyrant in S1 (This is my Tower! My city! My world! Beg your Mother for mercy!) and they were low key building her up as a bad Amyrlin. If you factor that in her actions in this episode were not that out of the blue.  

[Chivalry]

22 minutes ago, Vartija said:

Siuan is a solid character in the books but honestly her show portrayl has been quite off from the start. She came off like a cruel tyrant in S1 (This is my Tower! My city! My world! Beg your Mother for mercy!) and they were low key building her up as a bad Amyrlin. If you factor that in her actions in this episode were not that out of the blue.  

 

Yup.

 

[Chivalry]

So...Mat is no longer the son of battles, he's just a recalcitrant cutthroat and thief (in all those other lives)? Please tell me that's just a trick...

Rand doesn't mind that Lanfear butchered half the Foregate to help him?

Ingtar? Is he even part of the story? Nope, let's spend more time with Alanna's warders, they seem cool.

First Uno, now Jolien?

 

This episode hurts. 

[Guire]

1 hour ago, Chivalry said:

So...Mat is no longer the son of battles, he's just a recalcitrant cutthroat and thief (in all those other lives)? Please tell me that's just a trick...

Rand doesn't mind that Lanfear butchered half the Foregate to help him?

Ingtar? Is he even part of the story? Nope, let's spend more time with Alanna's warders, they seem cool.

First Uno, now Jolien?

 

This episode hurts. 

I really like Alanna and warders if not much of their season 2 story arc. But Amazon does seem to be making a marketing push in South Asia and a warder is dating the boss irl.  

[ilovezam]

I wonder what was even Moiraine and Siuan's original plan for Rand.

 

Siuan berates Moiraine for not having taught Rand anything about channeling, but Moiraine in S1 specifically said she would not teach him because he'd go crazy and because it's dangerous.

 

And yet in S2 Moiraine also went out of her way to facilitate Rand learning from Logain. We know from the books that women could not reach a man how to channel to begin with, but that's not what been presented in the show so far.

 

The really bizarre refusal to properly engage in the sai'dar sai'din divide because that would be problematic today put the narrative in a really odd place when it comes to this stuff.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

29 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

And yet in S2 Moiraine also went out of her way to facilitate Rand learning from Logain.

Is this not what Lanfear claimed, that Moiraine had set Logain up so Rand could reach him in her home city. But Moiraine (who cannot lie) said that she had moved Logain to keep him away from Rand who she thought would be at the Tower. 

 

Or am I misremembering? Or do people just want to believe Lanfear for some reason, as if her smoldering sexual energy is actually a sign of sincerity?

[Finnssss22]

2 hours ago, Chivalry said:

So...Mat is no longer the son of battles, he's just a recalcitrant cutthroat and thief (in all those other lives)? Please tell me that's just a trick...

 

 

Too early to jump to conclusions on this. Mat's flicker flicker moment in the books was very similar as he came out of it pleading with Rand to believe him that he wouldn't betray him.

And how many times does it have to be said...stop superimposing book 3 and beyond Mat with book 1&2 Mat. Mat was easily the least likable of the main characters in the first 2 books and kind of a dick to boot.

 

The finale and next season will be where we truly see where they're going with him, JUST LIKE THE BOOKS.

[ilovezam]

7 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

But Moiraine (who cannot lie) said that she had moved Logain to keep him away from Rand who she thought would be at the Tower. 

 

She definitely never said that. And why would Moiraine ever think that Rand was at the Tower?

Edited October 1, 2023 by ilovezam

[Finnssss22]

4 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Is this not what Lanfear claimed, that Moiraine had set Logain up so Rand could reach him in her home city. But Moiraine (who cannot lie) said that she had moved Logain to keep him away from Rand who she thought would be at the Tower. 

 

Or am I misremembering? Or do people just want to believe Lanfear for some reason, as if her smoldering sexual energy is actually a sign of sincerity?

 

You're misremembering. Lanfear said that Moiraine had gotten Logain moved there so she could keep tabs on Rand. Moiraine then admitted flat out she had him moved there but it was so Rand could learn.

Lanfear twisted it to drive Rand and Mo apart.

 

This all jives with Moiraine's and Suian's original plans and I highly doubt Moiraine could have had Logain moved without Suian allowing it.

[Scarloc99]

Ok so my usual episode review, as always watched alongside my wife who has not read the books, knows nothing about the books and has warned me on pain of bad things (well her never watching the TV show), to not even mention the books and what is the same/different etc to her. So I am getting at least her perspective as a non book reader. This is also very different to my previous reviews, this is for 2 reasons, first, these threads are all getting very serious (I am equally to blame for that), when this is a fun series lets have a laugh with it. but also more importantly, I am very sleep deprived right now and so just spouting some nonsense. 

 

So short version, I liked it, not as much as the previous episodes, my wife loved it but did ask why it took the Aes Sedai so long to get to Lanfer, 

Ok, this felt like a weaker episode to me, and not for the reason I think many will think, but I think this episode in it's entirety shows the issue with an 8 episode season vs a 10 episode one. The writers have done such a fantastic job these last 5 weeks of slow building some of these major plot points but are then forced to resolve them in a blink of an eye due to time constraints. But that for me meant a weaker episode. 

Rand suddenly can "cut" a weave when previously his ability with the one power extended to no more then blowing things up, setting things on fire or blowing things up while setting them on fire. This was the most mary sue of mary sue moments, akin in some ways to Rey at the end of the last Jedi. Rand also is supposidly now a blade master without having actually had proper training. I hope that in episode 8 we see a nifty training montage of him, in the mad house, putting a jacket on and off again, or making and un making the bed while a crazy mad man tell him it is training, then, at the end of it is told, what , no you won't learn the forms that way, I just remember an old story told by a gleeman once about a man who trained a boy to fight like a crane by making him do chores. 

 

On that Lanfer showing that 3000 years ago Foresakens great secret power allowed them to......... make bigger explosions with a bigger fire and stroll through it like a bad ass before "disappearing", while the Aes Sedai showed that they are incapable of doing anything quickly and without a committee meeting even when being attacked by one of the foresaken. 

Barthanes, is revealed, then dealt with in a second after the most obvious of secret hidey place eavesdropping moments. I would have thought Liandrin would have at least put up a weave to stop eaves dropping., I would also have thought that if you where hiring someone to kill an aes sedai they (the sell sword Barthanes is talking to), they would also be a bit dark friendy you know, juts to make sure they don't turn on you. I also hope they pay off that Liandrin's plan was beaten by Moiraines sister putting her ear up against a wall, that needs a real demonstration of Compulsion "you shall never again listen to or hear another's conversation" seems an adequate punishment. But it also seems that Liandrin has gone from being able to hide the fact she has a son, let alone that she is a dark friend, to just happily announcing the fact to anyone that will listen. 

Matt is "kocked out" and taken to falme (it seems in WOT tv show every characters nemesis will be being pushed into a wall, Nyn and Elayne last episode, Matt now, lets hope that at the last battle Moridin doesn't just push Rand into a wall). But he is there, looking this shows version of sickly, from the looks of episode 8 Fain has handed the dagger over? making me wonder if Mordeth will even be a character in the TV show, I mean, he wasn't much of one in the books, seemed to be someone that RJ would suddenyl remember about now and again. 

Nynaeve and Elayne "figure out" how to put on the collar off screen, and then just "figure out" it will work on a Sul Damane in a remarkable leap of logic that even the books don't show, I am sure that in TGH it is Egwene who figures out the secret? 

Egwenes collar power training will consist simply of her learning how to do a strong wind blast, in the books the key thing about her character is that pretty much all her training in the power has come from non Aes Sedai, first from being Damane (say what you will about it, it was a pretty good way to get Channellers learning fast how to do the hard stuff), and then becoming Aiel for a little while. If the sum total of her away from tower training is going to be a month or so collared and then a bit of time in the dessert then, ok. 

 

There where some great moments, Learning about Toh, and the way that wolf reacted, Rafe and Sarah both said about Gaul WAFO, which is usually writer speak for yes (if he wasn't going to be in it we would have had a wooly answer about how not all fan fav characters can make the show), so I am nt s worries about this, it makes sense for a Maiden to be out with other maidens, especially if that maiden is trying to avoid other responsibilities. 

Matt and Ishmael. This incarnation of matt is so so so much better then Book matt at this point in the books (basically RJ's version of Gollum with the dagger being the ring), I am open to the tea being the gateway to his other lives. Which leads me to a segway. 

So, the doorways and tear. In his twitter interview I think it was Rafe (might have been sarah) made the very valid point that I myself have made here which is that books 2 and 3 are basically the same general story following the same kind of themes, so filming them linearly was never going to be an option, wasting 2 seasons on more walking across randland chasing a thing/person/running away. But, I think as a result Falme will be Rands "tear moment" he will do something to reveal he is the dragon without any doubt. I am ok with this, I did a thread where I said that tear could happen after the adventures in the 3 fold land, but, I had not anticipated removing the doorways. Again it makes sense though. 

Filming the doorway will take both time (more then the 5-7 minutes Steppins arc actually took up on screen), and budget to end up with Matt just having some questions answered, you could get the same effect with one doorway, maybe Matt sees both types of Finn, or one tyoe but they both Answer questions and grant wishes, or so I thought, but, giving Matt that information a different way, for instance mad age of legends mushroom tea, doesn't really bother me. 

In Lord of the rings Peter Jackson made a choice not to include Tom Bombadil, but, in doing so he also removed the wight barrow scene from the books. Now this is actually a very very key scene, in the books at least, after Tom puts the wight to sleep he participates in a bit of good old tomb robbing (proving that even the most whimsical of characters has an inner indiana jones in them), and gives the Hobbits minus Frodo (who has a magical glow in the dark sword, thats an aside, if there are orcs about do you want your sword always giving you away?, anyway), swords forged for the battle with the Witch King of Angmar (chief ring wraith, no man shall ever kill me all that gubbins). Later in the books Merry stabs the witch king, and Tolkien writes that the magic that was forged to battle this ancient enemy of that long forgotten land reawoke and undid the magic holding the witch king together meaning Eowyn can then strike the killing blow. Now for me in the books that was a really clever and really important connection following through a theme in all of Tolkiens work of "never throw away anything you find under dubious circumstance because it might prove to be useful, or world ending, or both". 

Now the reality is that thinking about it, while seeing the doorways would be great, much like Tom B for me it is not important to the story, what is important is that Matt gets his memories, the mechanic of "how" can be changed because, it has to be because, there is only so much TV time and a journey into the Doorway to ask a bunch of questions will end up taking about the same amount of time Nyn's journey through the arches did. And then you need to do it a second time to get the gifts, sarah on being asked if the Finn would be in the series said something cryptic like "which finn" this again is writer speak for WAFO which is writer speak for, it will be coming, as opposed to "we have to make hard decisions what to cut and keep from the books, rest assured every decisions is made carefully". 

Um Siuan, many seem to be hating this incarmation of her, I am very much in 2 minds, in the books I always saw slivers of doubt that she had done the right thing in letting Rand wander free early on, the chaos and destruction he brings on the world I always felt sat heavy on her because she was the one who could have taken him at the start of TGH, instead she helped manipulate him in the hope that Moiraine would maintain control of him. So in this it all lines up with the books. Siuan, in this set of circumstance, I think might have acted like this. It also opens her character up for the coup, why did she go to Moiraine alone, why didn't she take 14 sisters with her, that then leads to an unraveling of her and moiraines plan, which leads to the coup. As opposed to the very shaky evidence the sisters had in the books (driven by the black ajah). Also, I am very much of the view that this wil mark the end of Her and Moiraines romantic relationship allowing both characters to follow paths closer aligned to the books writers love a classic tragic love story and Siuan and Gareth is just that, and Thom and Moiraine can bond over how they both loved powerful women who let them down. 

Perrin, was there, not much more to be said about that, continuing to follow book perrins inability to really grasp a proper handle on anything that is happening around him, while still being able to bumble into doing the right thing, be that while leading an army, ruling a province, or knowing when to eat with cutlery instead of like a wild animal. This also maintained a trend later in the books that RJ started where only 2 of the 3 boys could ever have any major storyline happen to them at any one time. 


 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

4 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

 

Wait, why would Moiraine think that Rand was in the Tower?

Because that is where she was taking them before the Eye of the World debacle. Was the plan not to stay there initially? 

 

I am feeling very uncertain now, did any of this actually happen? Have I been drinking too much of the apple brandy while watching?