WoT Season 2 Episode 6: Eyes Without Pity

[Jaysen Gore]

2 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Or Miri is her damane name and Alivia true name

Or, as is often the case for TV, they are changing her name to avoid having something (Alivia) that is too close to another character (Alviarin). Same way I'm not sure Egeanin gets to keep her own name (ironic, I guess) because of the closeness to Egwene.

[Windigo]

58 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Or, as is often the case for TV, they are changing her name to avoid having something (Alivia) that is too close to another character (Alviarin). Same way I'm not sure Egeanin gets to keep her own name (ironic, I guess) because of the closeness to Egwene.

Could be another combine characters, rather than a late introduction to someone new like Alivia, Mira will take on her story arc. 

[Finnssss22]

5 hours ago, Elendir said:

 

It is very superficial assessment.

Rand character was built during first 2 books. RJ needed to show who he was, before he became dragon and became mad.

Friends, he made then supported this "shepherd" not dragon.

 

Absolutely it was superficial but also pretty accurate. The reality is the girls had a lot more building than the boys in the first 3 books, ok 2 1/2 books. I would argue that Mat and Perrin had more character building in the last half of book 3 than Rand had total to that point.

Rand had some trials and tribulations up to book 3 but he hadn't really changed much or really accepted that he was the Dragon reborn until early book 3 and then we barely saw him for the rest of the book other than the Darkfriend campfire slaughter.

Pretty much the same with Perrin although I would probably say he was the most developed of the 3 by the beginning of the 3rd book but only by a small margin.

Mat from the time he woke up from his healing to the end of book 3 was a whirlwind of development for him. Mat literally exploded (fireworks pun intended) off the pages in book 3. Leaps and bounds, he was pretty much a new character really forming IMO the best duo of the series with Thom. You went from being somewhat disinterested in Mat to sitting up more and getting that feeling of anticipation every time you saw 2 dice in the chapter heading.

And if the last half of book 3 was Mat's breakout, Book 4 was Rand and Perrin's.

[Kaleb]

7 hours ago, Elendir said:

 

It is very superficial assessment.

Rand character was built during first 2 books. RJ needed to show who he was, before he became dragon and became mad.

Friends, he made then supported this "shepherd" not dragon.

We really got a lot of Rand's POV in those first books, we are told over and over again that he thinks of himself as a shepherd. But is there one scene of him actually doing anything to do with shepherding in the entire series? Specifically to do with sheep, not just being a farm kid? It's been a while, but I don't recall one offhand.

 

I think the point you're making, and it's a good one, is that we relate to Rand early on in the books as a humble, salt-of-the-earth guy. I do agree that the show hasn't shown as much of that as the books, and what they have shown of that Rand has been offset by scenes of him being petulant or frustrated with other characters. Still, I think a lot of it comes back to the fact that we are seeing Rand through his actions and not his internal monologue. S2 Rand gives a coin to poor street urchin and has ingratiated himself in the Foregate to where a vendor tosses him some bread as a friend, so we're still shown his good side. But later Rand goes to kill the jerk at his job, so it's obvious that he's starting to go nuts. I think we see more of his extreme mood swings in the show, where we were always sympathetic to his negative behavior when it's written from his POV.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

23 minutes ago, Kaleb said:

We really got a lot of Rand's POV in those first books, we are told over and over again that he thinks of himself as a shepherd. But is there one scene of him actually doing anything to do with shepherding in the entire series? Specifically to do with sheep, not just being a farm kid? It's been a while, but I don't recall one offhand.

I think only in flashbacks, I seem to remember one mention of caring for a lamb under his cloak and another of driving off a wolf from the flock (which could be the same passage actually) where Nynaeve is reminiscing about "I remember the boy who was so proud..." But at Winternight it was still too cold for shearing, and he we never saw him go back to the farm after that. 

 

Should there have been a parallel to Perrin in the forge in Tear, Rand grabbing a sheep and shearing it, or hijacking a flock and taking them for a joy ride because it has just been too long? Could have worked 🙂 

Edited September 27, 2023 by HeavyHalfMoonBlade

[Finnssss22]

9 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I think only in flashbacks, I seem to remember one mention of caring for a lamb under his cloak and another of driving off a wolf from the flock (which could be the same passage actually) where Nynaeve is reminiscing about "I remember the boy who was so proud..." But at Winternight it was still too cold for shearing, and he we never saw him go back to the farm after that. 

 

Should there have been a parallel to Perrin in the forge in Tear, Rand grabbing a sheep and shearing it, or hijacking a flock and taking them for a joy ride because it has just been too long? Could have worked 🙂 

 

Or they coulda really gone over the top playing on sheepherders jokes and shown a sheep scurrying away from a camp fire as Rand was buckling his pants up.

Let's all just be thankful they didn't go there lol

[Samt]

8 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Or, as is often the case for TV, they are changing her name to avoid having something (Alivia) that is too close to another character (Alviarin). Same way I'm not sure Egeanin gets to keep her own name (ironic, I guess) because of the closeness to Egwene.

That is hilariously ironic.

[Luckers]

14 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Or Miri is her damane name and Alivia true name

An interesting thought. I don't think it holds up in book--nothing specifically forbids it as far as I recall (there was something about one of the damane in Caemlyn not remembering her original name but I dont think that was about Alivia). Either way enough discussion around her happens by the characters for it to be commented on that she has reverted to her original name vs the name she was referred to when captured by Rand.

 

Doesnt mean it couldnt be a tv show thing?

 

I dunno having a freed damane as a character early on could be a very interesting and clever adaption especially if the goal is to advance the plot more quickly than in the books (which has been made clear)

[Finnssss22]

12 minutes ago, Luckers said:

An interesting thought. I don't think it holds up in book--nothing specifically forbids it as far as I recall (there was something about one of the damane in Caemlyn not remembering her original name but I dont think that was about Alivia). Either way enough discussion around her happens by the characters for it to be commented on that she has reverted to her original name vs the name she was referred to when captured by Rand.

 

Doesnt mean it couldnt be a tv show thing?

 

I dunno having a freed damane as a character early on could be a very interesting and clever adaption especially if the goal is to advance the plot more quickly than in the books (which has been made clear)

 

Yeah, I agree, it's too soon.

 

And after a quick search, Miri was indeed in the books. She is one of the damane killed in Semirhage's attempt to capture Rand.

[ilovezam]

14 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

They are gaidin, Morgase's whelps were just students. And also in the books the whole point was not their ability but the fact that the women were ogling them. Putting Mat against two warders to help out Rand would be making it much more difficult (Gawyn is taken out before he realises that Mat is any kind of a threat) and more heroic. 

 

13 hours ago, Ralph said:

depends if the point is for Mat to be shown as being a better fighter than two capable fighters, which is quite unrealistic, or whether the point of the episode is not to underestimate people. 

 

but anyway any two professional soldiers/bodyguards should be assumed more than capable of defeating a farmboy

 

I'm rusty on the books, but I was under the impression that Gawyn and Galad were repeatedly emphasized as genius-tier fighters even at that point (even though they were bloody idiots too)

 

If you're just watching the show, there's zero set-up on Alanna's himbos being good fighters beyond the realm of usual trained soldiers, and if Mat beats them, the implication will be weighted more heavily towards of "Wow, Warders really never win a fight, they suck lol" as opposed to the revelation that Mat kicks major ass.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

I don't know, the boys were repeatedly held up as being as good as Hammar, who was a skilled Warder with the sword, so in the books the two concepts are neatly tied together. In the show, not sure, Warders are meant to be elite fighters, with preternatural abilities thanks to the bond. Difficult to say how much of that would seep through to someone who has not read the books, but I think they should have the idea that Warders are a big deal.

 

I don't think it will happen though, as I would say that they know such a scene would be a fan favourite, and they would not want anyone stealing Mat's thunder. Also if Rand and Alanna are there (was she, cannot really recall), would the outcome with the Power not be more important than any fisticuffs? Could happen though, will just have to WAFO.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

20 hours ago, Luckers said:

Poop tho, woulda been fun.

Can someone start a new thread with this topic? 😂

[king of nowhere]

13 hours ago, ilovezam said:

Wow, Warders really never win a fight, they suck lol" 

Actually, the show does a decent job showing warders as good fighters. Whenever they are put against regular foes - Lan vs trollocs, bunch of warders vs logain's army, ryma's warder vs seanchan soldiers - they do kick major asses. 

Yes, Lan basically failed at evrything so far, but always against overwhelming odds.

 

EDIT: I took @HeavyHalfMoonBlade suggestion and capitalized Lan properly

Edited September 28, 2023 by king of nowhere

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Whoa, don't start being reasonable to Lan, surely that is against the forum rules?

 

Btw, you guys do realise that if you don't capitalise his name, it looks like you are talking about some dude called Ian, which does not sound that exciting to me. One of the reasons I did not enjoy the Matrix is that my hearing is not the best, and I thought the lead character used the cool handle "Neil". What kind of writing is this, I had to ask myself.

[ilovezam]

36 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

Actually, the show does a decent job showing warders as good fighters. Whenever they are put against regular foes - lan vs trollocs, bunch of warders vs logain's army, ryma's warder vs seanchan soldiers - they do kick major asses. 

Yes, lan basically failed at evrything so far, but always against overwhelming odds.

 

I'm not sure Ryma's Warder fared any better than the Shienarians against Seanchan soldiers in the show.

 

As for Lan vs Trollocs in s1e1... I don't know it just feels too difficult to contextualise. Just from the show we're not given any reason to believe a Seanchan warrior or say, Aviendha, couldn't have done that. It doesn't help that Lan hasn't done anything cool since.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

But is not the half-naked tai-chi like exercises not meant to impart that he is on another level of martial expertise?

[Ralph]

21 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

 

I'm not sure Ryma's Warder fared any better than the Shienarians against Seanchan soldiers in the show.

 

As for Lan vs Trollocs in s1e1... I don't know it just feels too difficult to contextualise. Just from the show we're not given any reason to believe a Seanchan warrior or say, Aviendha, couldn't have done that. It doesn't help that Lan hasn't done anything cool since.

aviendha sure. and nothing wrong with that

 

seanchan no way

[ilovezam]

1 hour ago, Ralph said:

aviendha sure. and nothing wrong with that

 

seanchan no way

I meant that the show showed Shienarians fighting the Seanchan just as well as Ryma's Warder did (I would argue they had fancier choreography, too) until they were in both cases overwhelmed.

And surely Lan is supposed to be a way, way, way better fighter than Aviendha (if no OP involvement, of course) 

Edited September 28, 2023 by ilovezam

[Scarloc99]

22 hours ago, Finnssss22 said:

 

Absolutely it was superficial but also pretty accurate. The reality is the girls had a lot more building than the boys in the first 3 books, ok 2 1/2 books. I would argue that Mat and Perrin had more character building in the last half of book 3 than Rand had total to that point.

Rand had some trials and tribulations up to book 3 but he hadn't really changed much or really accepted that he was the Dragon reborn until early book 3 and then we barely saw him for the rest of the book other than the Darkfriend campfire slaughter.

Pretty much the same with Perrin although I would probably say he was the most developed of the 3 by the beginning of the 3rd book but only by a small margin.

Mat from the time he woke up from his healing to the end of book 3 was a whirlwind of development for him. Mat literally exploded (fireworks pun intended) off the pages in book 3. Leaps and bounds, he was pretty much a new character really forming IMO the best duo of the series with Thom. You went from being somewhat disinterested in Mat to sitting up more and getting that feeling of anticipation every time you saw 2 dice in the chapter heading.

And if the last half of book 3 was Mat's breakout, Book 4 was Rand and Perrin's.

I have long felt that book 3 was where RJ actually started writing the story he really wanted to. I also feel that when he realized after book 2 that this would be a much long series he decided to change certain characters probably to make them more fun to write and so this fed into there stories. 
 

Moiraine becomes a lot less the all knowing all powerful Gandalf character, Lan changes from that Aragorn copy to someone softer, Matt, well RJ had a blank slate with him so could do what he wanted. Rand suddenly becomes the confident hero type, almost overnight, in tear reading everything and getting his own opinions (I think done in part to allow Moiraine to have a lesser role),  

 

You can go through each of the main characters and see how RJ very cleverly in most cases allows himself scope to write them out of the path he has started them on thematically. It shows the problems for a writer in not fully mapping out an entire story from the start, but also how a writer can then get himself out of that situation and create conditions that allow them to shift the character personalities and motivations slightly, 

[Scarloc99]

10 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Whoa, don't start being reasonable to Lan, surely that is against the forum rules?

 

Btw, you guys do realise that if you don't capitalise his name, it looks like you are talking about some dude called Ian, which does not sound that exciting to me. One of the reasons I did not enjoy the Matrix is that my hearing is not the best, and I thought the lead character used the cool handle "Neil". What kind of writing is this, I had to ask myself.

I mean movies 2 and 3 I also asked myself, what writing is this, but for very different reasons. A twist like “Neo, you name is Neil, would have been better then the “Architect”  lol. 

[Scarloc99]

8 hours ago, ilovezam said:

I meant that the show showed Shienarians fighting the Seanchan just as well as Ryma's Warder did (I would argue they had fancier choreography, too) until they were in both cases overwhelmed.

And surely Lan is supposed to be a way, way, way better fighter than Aviendha (if no OP involvement, of course) 

It showed a group of Shienarians an Ogier and Perrin (plot armour), just about holding there own fighting as a group. 
 

Rymas warder on his own with no other swordsman watching his back took out Seanchan after Seanchan even when injured. 
 

It was clear to my wife (who has never read the books) that he was better, she actually said “why didn’t they put a group of him with Perrin” 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Quote

I mean movies 2 and 3 I also asked myself, what writing is this, but for very different reasons. A twist like “Neo, you name is Neil, would have been better then the “Architect”  lol. 

Totally off topic, but the fascination with black also annoyed me. Now I have worn exclusively black for most of my life, but that was because it was a contrast to those around me. If everyone wears black, then that is so monotonous and boring. Why did they not choose different colours? Have some individual style? Too which one of my mates (who is too sharp for his own good) replied, you mean like the Power Rangers? 

 

Though thinking about it, black works, could be worse.

Edited September 28, 2023 by HeavyHalfMoonBlade

[Windigo]

1 hour ago, Scarloc99 said:

I have long felt that book 3 was where RJ actually started writing the story he really wanted to. I also feel that when he realized after book 2 that this would be a much long series he decided to change certain characters probably to make them more fun to write and so this fed into there stories. 
 

Moiraine becomes a lot less the all knowing all powerful Gandalf character, Lan changes from that Aragorn copy to someone softer, Matt, well RJ had a blank slate with him so could do what he wanted. Rand suddenly becomes the confident hero type, almost overnight, in tear reading everything and getting his own opinions (I think done in part to allow Moiraine to have a lesser role),  

 

You can go through each of the main characters and see how RJ very cleverly in most cases allows himself scope to write them out of the path he has started them on thematically. It shows the problems for a writer in not fully mapping out an entire story from the start, but also how a writer can then get himself out of that situation and create conditions that allow them to shift the character personalities and motivations slightly, 

Or rather than lack of author planning, it shows how he tricked the publisher into thinking they were getting a standard 80's-90's boy hero's journey, fantasy.  By the time he starts changing things in the 3rd book it is too late, 😅

[Finnssss22]

3 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

I have long felt that book 3 was where RJ actually started writing the story he really wanted to. I also feel that when he realized after book 2 that this would be a much long series he decided to change certain characters probably to make them more fun to write and so this fed into there stories. 
 

Moiraine becomes a lot less the all knowing all powerful Gandalf character, Lan changes from that Aragorn copy to someone softer, Matt, well RJ had a blank slate with him so could do what he wanted. Rand suddenly becomes the confident hero type, almost overnight, in tear reading everything and getting his own opinions (I think done in part to allow Moiraine to have a lesser role),  

 

You can go through each of the main characters and see how RJ very cleverly in most cases allows himself scope to write them out of the path he has started them on thematically. It shows the problems for a writer in not fully mapping out an entire story from the start, but also how a writer can then get himself out of that situation and create conditions that allow them to shift the character personalities and motivations slightly, 

 

RJ was a huge Tolkien fanboy and had tried unsuccessfully to be approved to write under the LotR license. RJ was more known for writing Horror/Mystery and Conan the Barbarian at that point. Should be very clear how his Horror/Mystery writing background served him quite well throughout this series.

Originally books 1-3 were 1 book and he paid a lot of homage in it to Tolkien. It's a good bet that some of it was written with the intention of being in a LotR setting.

When the LotR bid was unsuccessful he began shopping it around and that's when TOR came into the picture but they wanted him to break the book into 3 separate novels as well as a some other changes like the cutting of the 4th ta'veren boy Wil al'Seen (I'm pretty sure it was Wil, I may have to doublecheck that as well as whether it was TOR or Harriet that got him to break it into 3 books). *See edit below*

Book 4 was when he moved away from the Tolkien influence and really focused on creating something that was his alone.

That's why from book 4 onwards everything was tighter, the history got richer and character development ramped up. 

The mechanics of the One Power became much more defined. What you could or couldn't do with it and its limits became much clearer even contradicting how it was used at times in the first 3 books.

 

At the same time though, I think you're right about book 3 or at least the later half/third of it. I think by the time he was mostly done rewriting the first 3 he knew where he was going for book 4 and had a firmer grasp of the world he was going to create. That translated into the later parts of book 3 being the beginning of that journey into book 4 and beyond.

 

 

**EDIT: It wasn't Wil, it was Dannil Lewin**

Edited September 28, 2023 by Finnssss22

[Finnssss22]

On another note if you have been watching the preview trailers and following the casting leaks does anyone else think it's possibly Sammael lighting up the Foregate? 

There was only 2 actors without confirmed roles left for this season. One as a certain blind Sister has now been revealed for tonight but the other...

Adrian Bouchet

 

At first I thought maybe for Hawkwing but after seeing someone walking down the Foregate blowing everything up I started think wait a minute...with his blonde hair and build you just add a scar across his face and he could absolutely be Sammael.

 

Yeah I know, it's a shot in the dark but that would be pretty damned cool.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Finnssss22