WoT Season 2 Episode 6: Eyes Without Pity

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, DigificWriter said:

 

And in the show, they're treated like slaves, both of the historical variety and of the BDSM variety.

There is nothing sexual about the Sul’Dam/Damane relationships depicted in the show. 

[DigificWriter]

Just now, Elder_Haman said:

There is nothing sexual about the Sul’Dam/Damane relationships depicted in the show. 

 

BDSM doesn't always have a sexual component to it.

[Cipher]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

There is nothing sexual about the Sul’Dam/Damane relationships depicted in the show. 

I would say the way the Sul’dam was talking, “do you feel that?” Or whatever she said as if there was a spiritual connection—like the bond between warder and AS?

[Elder_Haman]

4 minutes ago, Cipher said:

I would say the way the Sul’dam was talking, “do you feel that?” Or whatever she said as if there was a spiritual connection—like the bond between warder and AS?

The Sul’Dam feels that way because she is able to control so much more power than she would alone. And more than any damane she’s trained before. 

[Cipher]

I think they have made Lan this way to give him an arc too.  I think we are going to get book Lan if the series makes it the distance.

[Cipher]

15 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

some of us are pretty bad at recognizing faces. i didn't recognize her until she said it, so for me it was necessary.

Jordan repeated many things to give us reference.  I think it was good for her to remind us who she is/was.

[Mailman]

59 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

BDSM doesn't always have a sexual component to it.

It is not a BDSM relationship.

 

It is purely slavery with a view that the Damane is a dangerous animal that can be harnessed for use.

[denise_42]

Do you think in the next episode Alanna Mosvani will Bond Rand in the books she does it against his will.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

4 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

BDSM doesn't always have a sexual component to it.

Kind of an odd off-topic conversation, but yes it does. Sado-masochism is inherently sexual, even if acts are not per se sexual in nature, as the goal of domination/submission is sexual enjoyment. SM is also inherently consensual, otherwise there is no masochism. The books are quite clear (in Tuon's mind at least) that sexual contact with a damane is disgusting, like bestiality as someone already pointed out. Though again, I think there are hints of damane being put in double kennels so a new damane can be comforted that hints at the books' fixation on sapphic relationships. 

 

So it is not, BDSM as it is not sexual and it is not consensual. If Renna was a sadist, then ok, she could be getting off on it, but I think anyone that is harbouring those kind of thoughts can just keep them to themselves. Sick little puppies. 

[Scarloc99]

On 9/22/2023 at 4:12 AM, DreadLord31 said:

Well… my initial reaction//first thoughts:

 

1. We got confirmation in Moiraine’s letter that she is stilled. 
2. Egwene/Maddy did an amazing job acting - truly heart wrenching.

3. Love Elayne//Ceara

4. The CGI was mostly bad, some decent moments - but on the whole - bad. 
5. Some scenes just rub me the wrong way - Moiraine/Lan/Min

6. Do not like what they’re doing with Matt (still…) 

7. Lan is one of my favorite characters in the book & has been just butchered by the show. 
8. Liandrin//Lanfear are the stars … so I guess I’m cheering for the Shadow in this adaptation? 
9. Nynaeve still seems to me to be the most featured protagonist. 
10. I think the fighting choreography is probably pretty good - but their editing is SO bad - really hope they fix that by the finale. 
11. Overall, I’m still intrigued & it was above average/entertaining Tv. And I’d rate it a 6 out of 10. 
12. That being said, the up and down quality of episodes…has me really concerned about maybe getting another “Wa Wa Waaaa” finale. 

 

We got confirmation she thinks she is stilled. I am still not 100% on that 

[Scarloc99]

22 hours ago, Vartija said:

Really liked the Egwene submission training. Even when you kind of knew what was going to happen they managed to make it emotional and meaningful. I thought Madeleine Madden was great in those scenes. Probably the best acting I've seen at least from the TR5.  

 

Minor quibble about it: I thought the final scene with Maigan could have been done better. We didn't need to be told "I was a Sitter of the Blue Ajah". They already established that in the episode and in that scene it came off like needlessly reminding the viewers. I think it would have been more striking if Maigan had acted more like she's already forgotten that part of her past. We would still have been able to connect the dots by recognizing her face. 

 

I thought the Wonder Girls at Falme was pretty good as well. I liked the sacrifice the Yellow did to save the girls. I liked when she called Nynaeve "sister", that felt surprisingly emotional. They're doing a consistent job with Nynaeve being the impulsive one and Elayne the sensible one. Felt like a solid starting point for their friendship. 

 

Overall the episode was entertaining but there we definitely some things I struggled with. Didn't like Lan blabbering to Alannah about the Dragon Reborn. Moiraine's strategy feels a bit all over the place: could she really be surprised Lanfear was able to manipulate Rand to a path she doesn't like? Should have been obvious to her before she told him to get close to her in the dream that it might go bad. 

 

Still don't like Min's arc. Am I missing something here or are they really making her wanting to get rid of her visions the driving force for her character? Doing a deal with the "devil" so casually just irks me. 

 

Liked Rand & Mat's reunion, as long as it lasted. I understand Mat's motivations not to go with Rand after hearing about Min's viewing. Seems like the noble thing to do at that point though we know he'll still end up in Falme somehow.          

She didn’t say it for us, she said it for Egwene, the fire it gives Egwene at the end, this is the start of her journey she will not be broken. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

12 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

...the fire it gives Egwene at the end, this is the start of her journey she will not be broken. 

It seems silly to kwibble about such points, but Egwene will be broken if not rescued. That is the point, you cannot resist. They can hurt you worse than Whitecloak Questioners let you sleep and start all over again and again. And as the a'dam is in your head, you cannot even have rebellious thoughts. Egwene has had to convince herself that she would never hurt Renna, could never. She must submit, and convince herself that she has submitted and will never have any thought of not submitting. That is why it is so horrible. In most situations like this you have to convince your captors you are broken (like for Loial, for example), with the a'dam you have to convince yourself you are broken. There is no way out, the way of resisting, strength of will just makes it take longer and hurt more. 

 

The show might try to make it look like Egwene is resisting or overcoming it, but that would be selling the horror of the situation short. Egwene is completely dependent on outside help to escape, and she needs it quickly before she is completely broken. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, that she can do to resist or escape herself.

Edited September 23, 2023 by HeavyHalfMoonBlade

[notpropaganda73]

22 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Yeah, we met that character once in season one.

 

Indeed, but imo this goes back to the stupid teaser at the end of S1 of the Seanchan. A better teaser would have been to use Maigan being captured. Shows the Seanchan being able to capture Aes Sedai, gets everyone interested about who the hell they are, and we see the Blue Sitter while she was fresh (ish) in our minds from her chat with Moiraine in S1. And makes the call back in S2 a little bit easier. 

 

It's another example of the small missteps or missed opportunities in the show which make it just miss the mark for me quite a bit.

 

 

[Vartija]

14 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

She didn’t say it for us, she said it for Egwene, the fire it gives Egwene at the end, this is the start of her journey she will not be broken. 

I get that it was to give Egwene something to think about. But I thought the sound levels were kind of all over the place in that prison. Sometimes screaming would barely be audible to the next cell, a moment later a normal low speaking sound would supposedly be heard clearly. 

 

Not the best designed scene imo which took me out of it a little bit but I might have been in the minority. 

[king of nowhere]

by the way, I know they want to make egwene look badass by spitting in the face of torturers, but am I the only who think she comes across as stupid instead?

I'm talking specifically of her refusing to give her name at first, both to renna and to valde before her.

the fact is, they are obviously serious about hurting you, and they are asking for nothing special. as long as they don't ask you to do anything against your core values - like betraying your friends, or submitting to elaida - it seems to me the smart thing would be to go along with it. valda may just be satisfied with the answers you give and let you go. renna wants to train you to fight with the one power, which would be useful training to be had anyway once your friends - who you know are about - will free you.

at least try to assess the situation. she doesn't even know what valda or the seanchan want from her. 

she only marks herself for special treatment this way. letting the enemy think you cowed while you bide your time seem a better way to escape. it's what loial is doing.

11 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

It seems silly to kwibble about such points, but Egwene will be broken if not rescued. That is the point, you cannot resist.

 

The show might try to make it look like Egwene is resisting or overcoming it, but that would be selling the horror of the situation short. Egwene is completely dependent on outside help to escape, and she needs it quickly before she is completely broken.

I disagree on the fine point of being "broken". sure, she cannot escape on her own, that does not mean she is broken. she cannot hurt the suldam, but she can still disobey.

if I were in that situation, i would do all the suldam ask of me, until i am brought to battle. then in battle I would try to cause some "accidental" friendly fire accidents. or possibly try to kill myself by using weaves that make a lot of shrapnel close to me. if it's not possible, just refuse to channel at a critical moment; i can't resist torture forever, but i may resist it long enough to alter the outcome of a fight. iirc about the adam, the leash holder could force the prisoner to channel, but the suldam don't train to channel, don't even know they can channel themselves, and therefore wouldn't be able to do it.

even if none of that is possible, one can avoid being broken by staying themselves. most damane reached the point where they didn't want to be freed, even when actually rescued. you can be a prisoner with no ability to help yourself, but you can still hope for rescue, you can keep resenting your captors.

[Meskell]

23 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

by the way, I know they want to make egwene look badass by spitting in the face of torturers, but am I the only who think she comes across as stupid instead?

I'm talking specifically of her refusing to give her name at first, both to renna and to valde before her.

the fact is, they are obviously serious about hurting you, and they are asking for nothing special. as long as they don't ask you to do anything against your core values - like betraying your friends, or submitting to elaida - it seems to me the smart thing would be to go along with it. valda may just be satisfied with the answers you give and let you go. renna wants to train you to fight with the one power, which would be useful training to be had anyway once your friends - who you know are about - will free you.

at least try to assess the situation. she doesn't even know what valda or the seanchan want from her. 

she only marks herself for special treatment this way. letting the enemy think you cowed while you bide your time seem a better way to escape. it's what loial is doing.

I disagree on the fine point of being "broken". sure, she cannot escape on her own, that does not mean she is broken. she cannot hurt the suldam, but she can still disobey.

if I were in that situation, i would do all the suldam ask of me, until i am brought to battle. then in battle I would try to cause some "accidental" friendly fire accidents. or possibly try to kill myself by using weaves that make a lot of shrapnel close to me. if it's not possible, just refuse to channel at a critical moment; i can't resist torture forever, but i may resist it long enough to alter the outcome of a fight. iirc about the adam, the leash holder could force the prisoner to channel, but the suldam don't train to channel, don't even know they can channel themselves, and therefore wouldn't be able to do it.

even if none of that is possible, one can avoid being broken by staying themselves. most damane reached the point where they didn't want to be freed, even when actually rescued. you can be a prisoner with no ability to help yourself, but you can still hope for rescue, you can keep resenting your captors.

None of the second half of your post is possible with the adam. The suldam decides when the damane embraces the source, decides exactly what happens once the source is embraced and decides once the damane is to pull away from the source. 
 

There is no possibility of self rescue, resistance or causing accidents. The domination is whole and complete at all times. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

32 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

if I were in that situation, i would do all the suldam ask of me, until i am brought to battle. then in battle I would try to cause some "accidental" friendly fire accidents. or possibly try to kill myself by using weaves that make a lot of shrapnel close to me. if it's not possible, just refuse to channel at a critical moment; i can't resist torture forever, but i may resist it long enough to alter the outcome of a fight. iirc about the adam, the leash holder could force the prisoner to channel, but the suldam don't train to channel, don't even know they can channel themselves, and therefore wouldn't be able to do it.

I think that underestimates the sul'dam and the a'dam. They are not naive, and have broken hundreds of marath'damane so I think they would ask such questions as, you would never try to hurt yourself, or you would always obey, or such. And you cannot lie. I think in the books there was mention of not being able to cut fruit if you thought about hurting yourself with the knife. So that would mean that you could not think of hurting yourself with the power or you would be prevented from touching the source as long as you thought of it as a way hurting yourself, even potentially. It does not let you pretend to obey, Egwene was not refusing to pour the water - she couldn't until she had convinced herself that she would never ever even consider hitting Renna with it. You must obey completely, not pretend to do so, as I understood it at least. Just like if they gave you a new name, you could not internally still call yourself by your old one, you had to convince yourself that it was your name, that you wanted it to be your name, that you would always want it to be your name, because through the a'dam they can read your feelings at least if not your thoughts, and if they tell you to be happy about your new name you have to be, or they will know, and punish you without end until you really are happy.

 

Edit: like what they said, with fewer words and better. 

Edited September 23, 2023 by HeavyHalfMoonBlade

[Luinedhel]

The Seanchan seek utter submission from Damane, as they see them as no more than pets, in the best case, so I believe Egwene's training has been portrayed along the lines of Seanchan standards. Here's a brief analysis on Episode 6: 

 

[EmreY]

I hated this episode, for obvious reasons, but I think it was the best so far.  And we finally got to see some glimpse of the Dragon too.  Yay! 🙂 

 

12 hours ago, Agitel said:

And anyone watch the preview for 7? We're going to get at least one little thing people were very disappointed about not seeing earlier.

 

Yes, indeed!

[king of nowhere]

12 minutes ago, Meskell said:

None of the second half of your post is possible with the adam. The suldam decides when the damane embraces the source, decides exactly what happens once the source is embraced and decides once the damane is to pull away from the source. 
 

There is no possibility of self rescue, resistance or causing accidents. The domination is whole and complete at all times. 

as far as I understand it, it is not.

the adam creates a link, with the suldam in control. a woman trained in channeling can use the adam to take the power of the other woman and channel it herself, very neat. it happens later in the book, and (staying vague to avoid spoiler tags) there is no need for the trained woman to coerce the prisoner.

but suldam are not trained in the power, it is unthinkable for them to believe they can channel. so they tell the damane to strike, but the damane are the ones trained. renna trains egwene in striking trees, she would not need to do that if the suldam could just decide what happens when the source is embraced.

I don't think the book has a clear-cut answer to this specific detail; however, everything about damane points in that direction. damane are trained and mentally broken. if the suldam was capable of just doing anything, that process would not need. damane would not be trained, they would be stored as batteries. nobody would care about them learning to use their waves, and nobody would care about instilling obedience in them. they do put so much effort into training because damane are controlling their own weaves, and they put so much effort into obedience because in most activities damane are coerced, not compelled. they can't hurt themselves, but they can decide to channel or not, or how they do it.

in the book, renna tell egwene to strike the tree. egwene refuses. renna hurts egwene. what renna pointedly does not do is embrace the source through egwene and direct the flows herself.

 

6 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I think that underestimates the sul'dam and the a'dam. They are not naive, and have broken hundreds of marath'damane 

 

Have they? by book lore suldam have experience with dozens of damane, just like a teacher has schooled hundreds of kids, but i realized just yesterday it's actually a plot hole - though not an important one. the teacher-kid thing only works because there are many more kids than teachers.

we know, both by lore and by the very mechanics of who can learn to channel, that there are more suldam than damane. so how the hell can every suldam train many damane? the math does not fit. if there are 50 suldam and 10 damane, it means that 10 suldam will have trained one single damane, and 40 suldam will have no training experience.

ok, we know that the suldam take turns, but still, each one of them will have only taken part of a training of a single damane.

 

plus, suldam are used to seanchan damane, where it is culturally accepted that's the fate of channeling women. i think most seanchan damane never needed to be hurt in the first place. as a teacher, let me assure you it's completely different having recalcitrant kids, but who ultimately accept your authority and what you are doing, and kids who refuse you entirely. a lifetime of training with the first type of kids does not make you an expert with the second - in fact, it would actually give you all kind of habits that only work with the first kind of kids.

realistically, only a handful of sul'dam in the whole empire would know what to do with someone like egwene. though, admittedly, having a control weapon like the a'dam helps immensely.

 

Quote

 So that would mean that you could not think of hurting yourself with the power or you would be prevented from touching the source as long as you thought of it as a way hurting yourself, even potentially.

 

 

if that leaves me unable to channel during a battle when my captors are relying on me, it's already a win.

 

Quote

because through the a'dam they can read your feelings at least if not your thoughts, and if they tell you to be happy about your new name you have to be, or they will know, and punish you without end until you really are happy.

how would that work? they keep hurting me... until  am happy? hurting me more only makes me hate them more. so either they will accidentally kill me, or they will make me go insane. and then i'd be a lot less valuable.

what happens is that they hurt me until i give in with whatever they ask. there is even a chapter in the book from the pov of a sul'dam, where she notes that what happens is that they get used to obey, and afraid of disobeying, until they don't think of it anymore.

 

if all that wasn't enough, we have alivia. alivia was a damane for centuries, but the moment she was free she quickly threw off her damane conditioning. she was beaten into compliance, and she remained compliant for centuries, but she was not broken, not completely.

 

 

 

 

[EmreY]

11 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

they keep hurting me... until  am happy? hurting me more only makes me hate them more. so either they will accidentally kill me, or they will make me go insane. and then i'd be a lot less valuable.

 

I agree with almost everything you wrote, but there is the pleasure/reward possibility as well, and that is what makes the collar so frightening.

[DigificWriter]

Even though people have been focusing on the sexual component of BDSM as a way to deny that what we saw in any way resembles that lifestyle/kink, I was and remain focused on the 'carrot and stick' aspects of said lifestyle/kink which are very much present and used in conjunction with the outright and unbridled physical violence that was characteristic of the way that Masters and/or Overseers treated slaves historically.

 

To use a few specific examples of how what we saw fits into BDSM, you have, in no particular order, 1) the 'I see no reason not to let you keep your name', 2) the cajoling/caressing, and 3) the closing 'good girl' remark

[king of nowhere]

6 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

I agree with almost everything you wrote, but there is the pleasure/reward possibility as well, and that is what makes the collar so frightening.

yes indeed.

 

and there is also the natural tendency to try to make the best of your situation. you can't do anything about being damane, so you try to get as comfortable a life as possible in the circumstance. you try to get rewards and avoid punishment, because punishment sucks and rewards make your life better. eventually you stop thinking about it and you behave by habit.

perhaps you start buying into the seanchan system of values. by virtue of repetition, you end up believing that the seanchan empire is a great wonderful thing and you should try hard to enforce it, because this gives a value to your life, and believing that your life has value is a fundamental human need. those that end up there are the best damane, those that even if freed may keep fighting for the empire.

And that goal is better reached by using violence as little as possible. it's easier to persuade a damane to love the empire by telling her of how evil were uncollared aes sedai, power corrupts and we are protecting you from that corruption, and how her channeling potential is used for the good of all, she should be proud of that.

In fact, looking at the history of slavery, we find plenty of examples of slaves that got along with their masters, were happy in slavery, never tried to escape even when they could, and they all have two common things: the slave was well treated, and the slave had a personal stake in things. the slave that was put to raise the children of the master often ended up like a surrogate mother, and was treated like a family member. in turn, she had an easier life than other slaves. on the other hand, I've never read of slaves that were beaten extra hard and ended up loving their captors. they may be frightened into compliance, but never made loial.

the books themselves also support this: renna is marked as a particularly harsh suldam even by other suldam. tuon is a great suldam because she does not mistreat her damane. though she has it easier by playing good cop / bad cop with renna.

by the way, I think it was also mentioned in the books that ryma was dieing before being taken by tuon, and even other suldam had given up on her, which again shows that people with exceptionally strong willpower can resist the adam to some extent. and, ryma being a good person, kindness was more effective in winning her loialty.

 

it's just that, put all of that together, and it's really, really, really rare for someone to retain that spark of rebellion - or to even want to.

 

but the whole tangent started on whether egwene would have been broken. she would have certainly been beated into compliance, but even then, if some years later she was offered the chance to take part in a prisoner exchange, she would have retained enough of herself to want freedom again.

[king of nowhere]

5 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

Even though people have been focusing on the sexual component of BDSM as a way to deny that what we saw in any way resembles that lifestyle/kink, I was and remain focused on the 'carrot and stick' aspects of said lifestyle/kink which are very much present and used in conjunction with the outright and unbridled physical violence that was characteristic of the way that Masters and/or Overseers treated slaves historically.

 

To use a few specific examples of how what we saw fits into BDSM, you have, in no particular order, 1) the 'I see no reason not to let you keep your name', 2) the cajoling/caressing, and 3) the closing 'good girl' remark

so what? carrot and stick is a component of every social interaction. your boss will give you promotions for good behavior and demotions for bad behavior, it does not mean you are in a bdsm relation with your boss. you may slap your dog for peeing on the floor, but it does not make you in a bdsm relatioinship with your dog.

in the past, corporal punishment for misbehaving kids were commonplace, both in the faily and in school. it does not mean every parent had a bdsm relationship with his children, every teacher with his students.

carrot and stick is simply an attempt to influence behavior, and violence is simply a bigger stick - one that our modern western society mostly tries to avoid, but that has been prevalent in many other uses.

 

ever since fifty shades has brought that kink to the general public, there's people who see it everywhere. no. just because someone is slapping someone else, it doesn't have to have something to do with bdsm. just because someone is trying to coerce someone else into changing behavior, it doesn't have to have something to do with bdsm. please. stop. seeing. it. everywhere!

[Mailman]

15 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

Even though people have been focusing on the sexual component of BDSM as a way to deny that what we saw in any way resembles that lifestyle/kink, I was and remain focused on the 'carrot and stick' aspects of said lifestyle/kink which are very much present and used in conjunction with the outright and unbridled physical violence that was characteristic of the way that Masters and/or Overseers treated slaves historically.

 

To use a few specific examples of how what we saw fits into BDSM, you have, in no particular order, 1) the 'I see no reason not to let you keep your name', 2) the cajoling/caressing, and 3) the closing 'good girl' remark

The fact that they are a slave overrides everything else.

While some of the things that make up some forms of BDSM are present they are overridden by slavery.

BDSM requires consent otherwise it is assault.