WoT Season 2 Episode 4: Daughter of the Night

[Elder_Haman]

2 hours ago, Cipher said:

I don’t think the audience should invent a narrative to make stupid story telling more plausible.

What makes the idea of one of the Forsaken being able to crash a party so "stupid" for you? 

 

The entire plot makes perfect sense and is, in a way, the same plot she attempted to use in tGH. When Rand meets Selene, she hamfistedly attempts to get him to "act like a Lord". Her goal is for him to rise in station as the Dragon with her at his side and she attempts to seduce him to achieve this purpose.

 

The goal here is the same, albeit with much more subtlety. She maneuvers herself into a sexual relationship with Rand and tries to become his confidant through that means. Selene has always intended for Rand to be introduced into Cairhienien society and took the opportunity of his search for wine to implement that plan by crashing a high society party. There is nothing at all random about that. 

 

Similarly, the Cairhieniens, ever playing the Great Game would notice a random woman of Selene's appearance suddenly appearing and opening an inn in the foregate. Where did she come from? Why is she here? And then Rand appears - a young man with an Aiel look to him. Even more reason to watch. 

 

Now of course you could show all that on screen, but it would take a long time. Or you can craft dialogue that implies all of that. Which is exactly what they did. 

[DaddyFinn]

1 hour ago, Cipher said:

a party crashing dude in a nice coat who nobody knows is gonna be the talk of the town?

Book 2 had quite similar stuff and much more of it. How many letters did Rand burn before attending the ball?

[Cipher]

2 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

100% true, and repression also has the adverse effect of causing people to do the very thing they say they admonish in public... People were getting quite freaky behind closed doors.
Prostitution was rampant... at least where it wasn't outlawed. Nobility were some of the worst hypocritical offenders.

As for things like heartleaf. Greeks or Romans were said to have had something similar, but it was supposedly soo popular it became extinct. 

 

Exactly. This is a fantasy series. Not a historical documentary. 😉 

It is not “”100% true” that the Victorian age wast the “most repressive” ever.  There is no meaningful way of measuring such a claim.  There are nations right now that execute homosexuals and the scourge of female circumcision might still exist and was a major problem in the near past.

[Cipher]

7 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Book 2 had quite similar stuff and much more of it. How many letters did Rand burn before attending the ball?

Rand had a grand entrance into the city with the bearing of a Lord. Lan gave him a crash course before meeting with the Amyrlin and spent some time leading the Sheinarans. Thom Merrilin a master of the Game of Houses was working in the back ground to prop Rand up.  The show is laughable in comparison.

[Cipher]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

What makes the idea of one of the Forsaken being able to crash a party so "stupid" for you? 

 

The entire plot makes perfect sense and is, in a way, the same plot she attempted to use in tGH. When Rand meets Selene, she hamfistedly attempts to get him to "act like a Lord". Her goal is for him to rise in station as the Dragon with her at his side and she attempts to seduce him to achieve this purpose.

 

The goal here is the same, albeit with much more subtlety. She maneuvers herself into a sexual relationship with Rand and tries to become his confidant through that means. Selene has always intended for Rand to be introduced into Cairhienien society and took the opportunity of his search for wine to implement that plan by crashing a high society party. There is nothing at all random about that. 

 

Similarly, the Cairhieniens, ever playing the Great Game would notice a random woman of Selene's appearance suddenly appearing and opening an inn in the foregate. Where did she come from? Why is she here? And then Rand appears - a young man with an Aiel look to him. Even more reason to watch. 

 

Now of course you could show all that on screen, but it would take a long time. Or you can craft dialogue that implies all of that. Which is exactly what they did. 

There was no build up at all.  The orderly at the mental ward shacking up in the foregate had 0 presence in the city.  He was an imposter that nobody knew.  See my above response for a truncated list of how the book was far superior.

[SinisterDeath]

38 minutes ago, Cipher said:

It is not “”100% true” that the Victorian age wast the “most repressive” ever.  There is no meaningful way of measuring such a claim.  

Yeah so... My reply was in agreement with @king of nowhere, within the context of European centric history, which was easily enough followed within the conversation we were having via terms like Victorian era, Renaissance era, and Medieval era... 

The Renaissance started in the 14th century and ended by the 17th century.
The Victorian era was the "19th" century, which gives us a time period between the 1200s-1700, and 1800-1900. 
Around the 16th and 17th century we got Puritans, which eventually in America Developed into Quakers and neither of them necessarily have the most sex-positive history attached to them.

Even though I agreed with "king from nowhere", that from a Euro-centric POV that they were rather prudish, I also stated that despite that; behind closed doors they were quite freaky under the sheets.

If you want to be pedantic like every single user on Reddit then you are correct. The "Victorian era" was not the "most repressive era ever" and it would be hard to quantify that. The wording used was far to absolutist. I should have used far more qualifying statements to bypass your need to be correct.

 

I apologize. I'll try to do better next time.
 

Quote

There are nations right now that execute homosexuals

Yes, and it is a very real world issue to this day that should be considered a human rights violation.
 

Quote

and the scourge of female circumcision might still exist and was a major problem in the near past.

There is no "might" to this. It 100% still exists and is an active real world problem, that like above should be treated as a human rights violation.

[swollymammoth]

The show's approach to sex in WoT is one of its most confusing elements and one of the most obvious ways that Rafe just decided to turn the show into his own personal fan fiction. In the books, sex is hinted at. It's there, but it isn't a focus. Characters are very old-fashioned around sex, and they often become flustered or embarrassed when the subject is raised. Rand is a virgin until Book 5, and Perrin (if I remember correctly) waits until marriage. The Sea Folk captain in the Shadow Rising mentions having to "make up" with her husband and then makes a sideways remark about how making up with him is pretty fun, and she's one of the more overtly sexual characters in the series. Sex in the books is intimate and, in public, is almost always approached indirectly, suggested rather than discussed outright. 

 

Ironically, the most sexually charged POV from the books is Mat and there is simply NO CHANCE IN HELL that Rafe is going to do Mat justice in that way. No doubt, he just sees book Mat as a toxic male that he has to reform. 

 

In my opinion, Rafe's desire to present more realistic relationships shows a total misunderstanding of the books which is all to characteristic of him. 

 

Yeah, the book relationships are "unrealistic" but there's very little evidence to suggest that this wasn't intentional on RJ's part. Early in his career, he wrote bodice rippers! He liked over the top emotions. A scene like Rand kissing Elayne for the first time could be taken straight out of a dime store novel. That's the point! These relationships aren't supposed to be "realistic" or "healthy" or "representative." They're supposed to be passionate and intense and raw and, in my opinion, they actually come across as much more honest than modern approaches to writing romance. 

 

In my opinion, you actually could ramp up the sex in WoT and not lose too much of the spirit of the books. You keep the character's innocent beginnings and then have them all open up sexually (which is what happens in the books) but instead of portraying it like the show does, make it like Outlander. Draw on WoT's bodice ripper DNA and lean into that. 

 

In short: Rafe is trying to be all mature, but in truth, his take on sex in WoT actually betrays his immaturity. Rafe is obsessed with sex. RJ cared about romance. Small differences, but it's this stuff that makes all the difference. 

[Samt]

The forsaken in the book infiltrate (and in some cases, completely take over) the top levels of every significant government in the world within a few years (a few months in some cases) of being released from the bore.  I don't find it terribly difficult to believe that Lanfear could take over an inn and infiltrate a party.  

[Cipher]

48 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Around the 16th and 17th century we got Puritans, which eventually in America Developed into Quakers and neither of them necessarily have the most sex-positive history attached to them.

Puritans and Quakers eh? So abstinence then into lifelong monogamy is sex negative. I would say nope.  Devoted married people have more sex and better sexual satisfaction than single people.

[Cipher]

Make it like Outlander?

 

*in Darth Vader’s voice*
Noooooooooooo

 

I turned that show off on the 4th scene where the protagonist was yet again going to be raped.  I guess everyone in England/Scotland was a rapist in the past. Rape can be a cheap plot device.

 

When I read Homer’s Odyssey it has no rape plot. In the Bible after a woman gets raped her brothers go massacre the rapist’s town.  A more evil act than the actual rape—but obviously the rape was a serious crime.  

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, Cipher said:

There was no build up at all.  The orderly at the mental ward shacking up in the foregate had 0 presence in the city.  He was an imposter that nobody knew.  See my above response for a truncated list of how the book was far superior.

He was a mysterious outlander who showed up with a beautiful, mysterious woman at a party. In Cairhien. I'm not debating whether the book was "superior" - these are different media. I'm saying there is nothing at all illogical about the way the show did it.

[Kaleb]

1 hour ago, swollymammoth said:

The show's approach to sex in WoT is one of its most confusing elements and one of the most obvious ways that Rafe just decided to turn the show into his own personal fan fiction. In the books, sex is hinted at. It's there, but it isn't a focus. Characters are very old-fashioned around sex, and they often become flustered or embarrassed when the subject is raised. Rand is a virgin until Book 5, and Perrin (if I remember correctly) waits until marriage. The Sea Folk captain in the Shadow Rising mentions having to "make up" with her husband and then makes a sideways remark about how making up with him is pretty fun, and she's one of the more overtly sexual characters in the series. Sex in the books is intimate and, in public, is almost always approached indirectly, suggested rather than discussed outright...

The show ages the EF5 up in terms of actually having sex, but they are still fairly naive/innocent/prudish overall relative to much of the rest of their world, just like they were in the books. How many times do we hear about Domani using sex appeal for trading advantage, how often is RJ inviting us to ogle cleavage, how many times does he invite us to laugh at how our hayseed heroes are being absolutely roasted for their naivety? One thing I love about the show is that it illustrates what it actually looks like to be a country bumpkin being introduced to a more cosmopolitan world, Egwene's scene asking advice from Alanna while being so uncomfortable she can barely will herself to sit on cushions is a great example. 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Kaleb

[Scarloc99]

7 hours ago, Guire said:

Agree 100 %.  I think Avi and Elayne will have an intimate physical relationship independent or coexisting with Rand relationship.  I think Min may be sort of 1 to 1 relationship with Rand outside of his traingle with other 2.  Btw I have never seen these kind of complex poly relationships do well in long run in real world.  I think the royal harem polygamy relationship from book actually has a better chance at working irl.  Its like 3 simple coexisting relationships running parallel and can have decently defined rules.  

I have seen some very succesfull poly relationships, at least up to this point one I know has lasted 7 years, who knows how much further it may run, don't think I could manage one myself, I was always very impressed with the girls who managed to make it all work inspite of Rand. I do wonder how the show will handle this experienced and far more worldly Rand dealing with the 3 women and his emotions without having him come across like an ass, maybe the Selene thing pushes him back and makes him far more wary now, but it is going to be hard to make him the wide eyed sheephearder that couldn't see Min when she was stood in front of him, or had no idea what Avi's feelings where, or tried to push Elayne away. 

[swollymammoth]

2 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

I have seen some very succesfull poly relationships, at least up to this point one I know has lasted 7 years,

Lol says a lot that this is an outlier

[Scarloc99]

6 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

true for the general population, but aes sedai can just get healed. I'd think they could be more promiscuous than many.

also, zigzagged in the real world. sure, std were a strong incentive on monogamy - and while I am unable to find confirmations, I would bet that most religions frowning on illicit sex and prostitution stemmed from seeing those disease as divine punishments.

on the other hand, there were plenty of ancient civilizations - agrarian, preindustrial - that were very promiscuous, especially the ruling classes. romans and greeks had sex slaves and widespread same-sex relationships outside of marriage. though that sexual freedom was much lower for women, because of pregnancies.

even in the middle ages europe was a lot less bigoted than it's generally known, with the church pushing for more restrictions on sexuality gradually in the late middle age.

in fact,

the most sexually repressive time was renaissance and victorian ages.

those were the times when you could get burned at stake for homosexuality - in earlier times nobody cared much as long as it wasn't too obvious.

again, a few nobles would stand out, but they were more exceptions.

 

all in all, I think we can't take history to say what is or isn't realistic. in fact, history shows us a lot of different examples that can be used to justify pretty much anything

I mean, there is a perception that certain periods of time where more chaste then others, but the reality is that Humanity has always been very very horny and the next generation always seems to think they have discovered sex when our grandparents smile knowingly at each other and remember misspent youths getting up to all sorts, sometimes it is more covered up and hidden then others but every era had crazy wild periods, especially in the higher echelons of society, of which the Aes Sedai most def are part. 

[Scarloc99]

5 hours ago, Cipher said:

No indicator on screen that Lanfear did anything of the sort. Sure that might be to keep us in the dark of who she is, but as it is a party crashing dude in a nice coat who nobody knows is gonna be the talk of the town?  Ok if you buy horse dung.  In the show Suits a character who faked graduating from Harvard went to a Harvard alum party and some people were like “who the hell is this? We don’t know you.”  Way better writing.

The point was that everyone asked, who the hell is this, everyone tried to figure it out, it is obviously a pretty exclusive party and somehow this new guy, who looks like an Aiel (which is going to get very noticed), is stood there, seemingly as if he is meant to be there, but no one has any idea who he is. This is the French regency equivalent, no one would consider he is a no body who talked his way in because everyone is so ingrained in the game that they can't even consider no one is playing it. If someone did approach then Selene seems to have enough influence, or some inside way of getting in and getting what she wants. 

We didn't see how he got in, and it really doesn't matter, Selene got him into the party and the moment he was there he became important to everyone else because they needed to know who he is, from that point then at least one house is keeping very close tabs on him, but I imagine others where as well. If you are going to overthink it then accept there is a perfectly valid explanation, my wife who has never read the books picked up on it clearly when I asked her earlier how she thought Moiraine knew where he was, without blinking (and without me prompting her at all, I have strict instructions to discuss nothing about the books with her at all), she stated. 

He caught everyones eye at the party because he stood out and that old women, Moiraines sister, kept close tabs on him, they told you that in the show. 

So yes it is obvious to non book readers as well, even if they don't yet know the intricacies of the great game of houses. 

[Cipher]

17 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

I have seen some very succesfull poly relationships, at least up to this point one I know has lasted 7 years, who knows how much further it may run, don't think I could manage one myself, I was always very impressed with the girls who managed to make it all work inspite of Rand. I do wonder how the show will handle this experienced and far more worldly Rand dealing with the 3 women and his emotions without having him come across like an ass, maybe the Selene thing pushes him back and makes him far more wary now, but it is going to be hard to make him the wide eyed sheephearder that couldn't see Min when she was stood in front of him, or had no idea what Avi's feelings where, or tried to push Elayne away. 

Ya, Petulant Rand is hard to tolerate. He treated his girls better than everyone else though.

Cadsuane is unbelievable in her character in some ways, but trying to make Rand civil was a good cause.

[Scarloc99]

3 hours ago, Cipher said:

Rand had a grand entrance into the city with the bearing of a Lord. Lan gave him a crash course before meeting with the Amyrlin and spent some time leading the Sheinarans. Thom Merrilin a master of the Game of Houses was working in the back ground to prop Rand up.  The show is laughable in comparison.

think you are getting mixed up, Thom wasn't in TGH, and Selene has been in his ear, teaching him in her own way how to present himself. 

[king of nowhere]

2 hours ago, Cipher said:

It is not “”100% true” that the Victorian age wast the “most repressive” ever.  There is no meaningful way of measuring such a claim.  There are nations right now that execute homosexuals and the scourge of female circumcision might still exist and was a major problem in the near past.

yes, ok, there is no objective way to measure cultural prudishness.

[historical tangent that has nothing to do with thread but may be interesting to some]

I was thinking at people from the time covering table legs because they may be suggestive, which is the silliest extreme I ever heard of in the topic. I was also tapping into the notion that pleasure was considered bad even in a marriage, and sex was supposed to not be too enjoyable - though perhaps I picked this up from hearsay and it's not historically accurate. I do know for a fact that the church started to put out recomendations on which positions were allowed and which were not, and theologians were listing the ways you were allowed to touch boobs while other ways were sinful, and that started happening in the late middle age, I'm not sure how much of that was still observed in victorian era.

On the other hand, a culture that executes homosexuals is not necessarily prudish, merely homophobic to the extreme. A culture that practices female genital mutilation may have a plethora of reasons, ranging from straight misoginy to just tradition. while we generally equate it with repression, a lot of different ancient cultures indipendently came up with the idea of chopping up pieces from the nether regions of both boys and girls; lacking a specific context, I'm ascribing it more to "humans are weird" than to anything specifically related to sexuality.

those cultures may still encourage - or at least say nothing - a husband and wife to seek pleasure, while victorian culture tried to discourage even that, which is why I consider it the most sexually repressive I ever heard of.

[end of historical tangent]

regardless of any reason to rank cultures according to prudishness, that's irrelevant. My point was simply that in the past there were more liberal cultures and so we can't say "this is historically inaccurate"

[swollymammoth]

1 hour ago, Kaleb said:

How many times do we hear about Domani using sex appeal for trading advantage, how often is RJ inviting us to ogle cleavage, how many times does he invite us to laugh at how our hayseed heroes are being absolutely roasted for their naivety?

True, but you've got to admit that there's a difference between RJ's approach which is usually something like, "The woman wore a sheer dress that left little to the imagination. Egwene blushed furiously," and Alanna explaining the logistics of a threesome. Indirect vs. Direct. WoT is indirect with its treatment of sex. WoPrime is direct, and this change was purposefully made to suit Rafe's personal tastes rather than any idea of fidelity to the source. 

 

This isn't to say that a book accurate adaptation of WoT would be prudish or anything. The books are full of nudity and women in sexy clothing. That being said, Rafe's current approach isn't in line with that either. Prolly too much "male gaze" or something. Instead, he's giving us fanfiction where relationships that he wants to see are shown and explored in unnecessary depth. Meanwhile, sexuality that actually was present in the books is largely ignored. Again, probably because it would be "problematic." 

 

Just saying. If Rafe wanted sexuality, there was plenty to draw on. Instead, as usual, he just did his own thing. 

Edited September 12, 2023 by swollymammoth

[swollymammoth]

9 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

Thom wasn't in TGH,

Thom is definitely in TGH. Rand runs into him performing in a tavern. Thom is dating a really young girl (0% chance that ends up in the show. Only relationships with Rafe's stamp of approval are allowed) who gets killed by Darkfriends. Thom and Rand meet up at that banquet/ball thing Rand gets invited to. Thom kills the king of Cairhein. 

[Scarloc99]

42 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Lol says a lot that this is an outlier

Not an outlier, and example, I know many married  and unmarried couples/throuples and more some of whom have children and have been together 10+ years and are in open relationships, or swing, or anything else. It is far far more prevalent in society then people realise, and it is really really good to see it represented in fantasy fiction because it helps to normalise it and help people see it is ok. 

WOT was for me a massive series because it was the first fantasy series I read that showed Poly and Power exchange dynamics in relationships, as a 16 yo in the late 90's who at the time thought I was odd for being interested in those things it made me feel like I wasn't odd at all. It is in no way erotica but if you look at it through a BDSM lens it deals with consent, power exchange dynamics, poly relationships, sex is not in front of you on the page but it is there, throughout it and I am really pleased to see it being handled the way it is on the screen. Alanna is in an open throuple, and it is joked about "where the 3rd man will go" that is actually similar to a line i have heard a friend be asked, for those who live an alternate lifestyle seeing things like this reflected on the screen in a series that is not some high drama, documentry or reality tv show is really refreshing, and it is staying true to the source material because I do wonder, where he writing WOT now post books like 50 shades would RJ have pushed it a little further with that side of things. What he wrote at that time was so outside the norm for main stream fantasy writing that I think he would have done. As much as people want to gloss over it RJ wrote WOT as much to make a social statement and also to demonstrate that a fantasy series could have strong female characters actually being the hero. But he also made the concious choice to write the realtionships he did, and have as much nudity and implied sexual abuse (amongst the foresaken) as he did

Edited September 12, 2023 by Scarloc99

[Scarloc99]

11 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Thom is definitely in TGH. Rand runs into him performing in a tavern. Thom is dating a really young girl (0% chance that ends up in the show. Only relationships with Rafe's stamp of approval are allowed) who gets killed by Darkfriends. Thom and Rand meet up at that banquet/ball thing Rand gets invited to. Thom kills the king of Cairhein. 

Sorry had a brainfart there, you are right for some reason that was book 3 in my head apologies 

[swollymammoth]

1 minute ago, Scarloc99 said:

it is really really good to see it represented in fantasy fiction because it helps to normalise it and help people see it is ok. 

You know, there's a lot of things that are really important to me too that I would love to see represented more in fantasy fiction buuuuuuuut that doesn't mean I'm okay with those things being shoehorned into stories that didn't already have them. 

 

Like, how out of place would it be if Rand saw the Seanchan and all of the sudden had a 5 minute aside where he extolled the virtues of democracy over tyranny? And then what if it kept happening? Over and over, needlessly driving in this theme that is only tangentially related to the story as a whole? You would hate that. And so would I. 

 

WoT doesn't have to be EVERYTHING to me. I'm fine with WoT just being WoT. I have other stories to scratch the itches that WoT can't reach. 

[Scarloc99]

4 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

You know, there's a lot of things that are really important to me too that I would love to see represented more in fantasy fiction buuuuuuuut that doesn't mean I'm okay with those things being shoehorned into stories that didn't already have them. 

 

Like, how out of place would it be if Rand saw the Seanchan and all of the sudden had a 5 minute aside where he extolled the virtues of democracy over tyranny? And then what if it kept happening? Over and over, needlessly driving in this theme that is only tangentially related to the story as a whole? You would hate that. And so would I. 

 

WoT doesn't have to be EVERYTHING to me. I'm fine with WoT just being WoT. I have other stories to scratch the itches that WoT can't reach. 

But I am saying it is in WOT there is nothing on the screen that is not in the books, at least as I read them, it is being handled far more delicatly on the screen, you see no flesh, things are hinted at or talked about but not actually shown beyond a few seconds of a fully clothed Alanna and both warders, and I am happy with that I don't need or want GOT levels of nudity or in your face sex, but nothing here is being created or shoehorned into the show that isn't in the books in some form.