WoT Season 2 Episode 3: What Might Be

[Vartija]

Btw, I was really impressed with the casting for Lady Anvaere Damodred. I immediately thought she looked familiar from something and it finally clicked that she played Servilia on HBO's Rome-series, and she was terrific in it. Is she the surprise visiting star that I read would be in Season 2? I assume we'll see more of her when Moiraine reaches Cairhien. 

 

Edit: I just realized she could have been great as one of the Wise Ones too. 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Vartija

[Ralph]

2 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

.

And even explain the need for Sarah Nakamura being a part of the show…at every point they’ve diverged from what she and Brandon Sanderson have recommended to them (there’s definitive proof that they didn’t understand things like at least those two hard-core fans). Sanderson has said on YouTube that he told them not to have Laila and fridge her… 

I would like to see where you got this from. I do not recall Sarah saying they diverged from what she recommended (I assume at every point was meant to be hyperbole), only that she had found some of the charges difficult and had how come on board with them. 

 

Brandon said he understood the need for every single change and accepted them, but that specific one he would have had Perrin kill Haral Luhhan instead. 

 

not the way I think you have presented it

[Scarloc99]

28 minutes ago, Vartija said:

Btw, I was really impressed with the casting for Lady Anvaere Damodred. I immediately thought she looked familiar from something and it finally clicked that she played Servilia on HBO's Rome-series, and she was terrific in it. Is she the surprise visiting star that I read would be in Season 2? I assume we'll see more of her when Moiraine reaches Cairhien. 

 

Edit: I just realized she could have been great as one of the Wise Ones too. 

She was great in a discovery of Witches where she played a matriarchal vampire mother. 

[DreadLord31]

1 hour ago, Scarloc99 said:

so my question is for you, what do you see his purpose is in the books? I am intrigued how others see him, I have always seen him as a bit of light comic relief, and someone to bounce off of a very serious Nynaeve. He appears a couple of times to get the girls out of trouble and then used as a recurring character when a guard is needed so the reader has a touchpoint in those scenes, but also because he was a fan (and I guess an author) fav so was given a bit of extra screen time. But there is no "Arc" that he drives forward or that could happen without him. The books could exist without him, they would lose those few paragraphs of interesting world building and fun interactions but if you replaced him with a series of different soldiers in each interaction the story would not change. 

Thats how I see him. 

 

 

He's not essential to the overall arc. I already agree with you there. But he did have a purpose. RJ said that the idea he was playing with in the WoT was "What would happen if you took regular small-town folk, and had someone show up and tell them, 'you're the savior of the world'. The importance of a character, like Uno (it didn't have to be Uno) is that the naive EF5 characters from a small-town laugh him off, but actually, as they experience more of the dirt and grime of the 'real world', they realize that someone like Uno - has a good reason for swearing all the time and being cynical & they become more like him. RJ was a Vietnam War vet, was he not? I think he knew some Uno's and they made an impression on him.

[DreadLord31]

31 minutes ago, Ralph said:

I would like to see where you got this from. I do not recall Sarah saying they diverged from what she recommended (I assume at every point was meant to be hyperbole), only that she had found some of the charges difficult and had how come on board with them. 

 

Brandon said he understood the need for every single change and accepted them, but that specific one he would have had Perrin kill Haral Luhhan instead. 

 

not the way I think you have presented it

 

It's true I'm assuming from Sarah saying that book readers should "gird their loins" that, she, as the resident book-expert, had a hard time with some of the changes. 

What I'm referencing with Sanderson is here:

 

You could start at the 25 minute mark if you wanted... and clearly, clearly hear that Sanderson A) was surprised that they DID listen to most of his suggestions! but B) they ignored him on certain things. HE says that "he had a really hard time with the scripts" until he changed his perspective to this being "another turning of the wheel". At the 32 min mark is where he talks about disagreeing with fridging Laila - even though he understood why he was doing it. And your right that he says that "he would have had him Wound Luhan" and that "he was cool with it". 

 

But to be clear -- I'm NOT saying that Nakumura or Sanderson don't like the TV show -- or that they don't agree with ALL the changes. 

Edited September 5, 2023 by DreadLord31

[SinisterDeath]

9 hours ago, Samt said:

But what does change is the way that the main characters see him.  Initially, the see him as crass and vulgar, uncompassionate, and surly (perhaps even comically so).  But as time passes and the POV characters grow and understand the world better, they come to understand that he is also honorable, courageous, competent, confident, and bound to fulfill  his duty.   Uno is a bit of an archetype of the mistreated grunt who gets laughed at until he saves your life and you realize that he knows a lot more than the people who initially discounted him as an old codger.  

 

But in the TV series, Uno gets one scene where he's the butt of a joke and then his next scene he decides to practically commit suicide and gets impaled.  If the creators didn't want to have the character, don't have the character.  Uno is by no means a required character.  But to add him only to kill him shows that they don't really understand why the character is in the books in the first place.  

Interesting choice of words, considering what Mat is going to do with a certain horn...

[SinisterDeath]

2 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

Moiriaine does say something like “she’ll pass the bond to Alanna”; which even in the mechanics of however the show is doing things — doesn’t make sense— is he still bonded or not? He can’t sense it but still has it? Makes me think they are leaning towards she’s permanently shielded.

We don't know.

As far as we know, they've changed the mechanics to "mask the bond" to require channeling. So she "turned it off" when she went to the blight. So they're still "bonded", but it's "masked" and she can't turn it "on" because she can't channel.

 

So it's like they're still wired together, but the powers not on. That's the best in-show explanation I've heard so far.

 

 

[Scarloc99]

56 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

 

He's not essential to the overall arc. I already agree with you there. But he did have a purpose. RJ said that the idea he was playing with in the WoT was "What would happen if you took regular small-town folk, and had someone show up and tell them, 'you're the savior of the world'. The importance of a character, like Uno (it didn't have to be Uno) is that the naive EF5 characters from a small-town laugh him off, but actually, as they experience more of the dirt and grime of the 'real world', they realize that someone like Uno - has a good reason for swearing all the time and being cynical & they become more like him. RJ was a Vietnam War vet, was he not? I think he knew some Uno's and they made an impression on him.

I never really considered him like that, it is an interesting take I always saw him as ancilliary and other characters are the ones that teach the lessons, but I suppose if you see him as a constant then you can gauge how the other characters change against him, I think I always saw other characters closer to the main ones a that role, So egwene becomes more like Siuan, Mat more like the commanders of the red hand, Elayne Brigette, Nynaeve strangely becomes more moraine like in some ways. It is an interesting different take on the character. 

[Samt]

2 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

As far as we know, they've changed the mechanics to "mask the bond" to require channeling. 

 

Which raises some questions about Min...

[DaddyFinn]

29 minutes ago, Samt said:

Which raises some questions about Min...

Spoiler

She couldn't mask it in the books though

 

[Samt]

12 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

he says they killed Uno so that the audience would “fecking (isn’t that what Uno said?) fear the Seanchan”. 

 

If you just want to make the audience fear the Seanchan, you could have killed any number of random unnamed characters (either Shienaran or villagers).  You could even give one of the Shienarans a name and a brief backstory before killing him if you want to make it a little more emotional.  The only reasons I can think of to kill Uno specifically is either because the creators want to take out some personal angst on a fictional character or because they specifically wanted to misdirect book readers who might assume that he was safe (Agelmar not withstanding).  

 

This idea of needing to misdirect book readers (whether earnestly believed or simply used as an excuse to justify making changes) leaves me worried about the story.  I'm sure there are some book readers that are in for the thrill of it and want to be kept guessing.  However, I think most would be completely interested in watching a WoT adaptation even if they could basically predict all of the twists and turns as they were coming from the book.  Changes can be made or needed for lots of reasons, but changing to misdirect book readers is basically just changing it because you want to prove that you can.  I think a much healthier approach to adapting is to ask how can you avoid changing it rather than how can you get away with changing it.  The creators seem to be leaning very heavily towards the latter.  

 

As an example, basically all of the epic dramatic moments from the LOTR movies are either taken entirely from the books or are at least entirely predictable to book readers.  That doesn't it make it not awesome to see Gandalf staring down a balrog and yelling "You cannot pass."  Or to see Sam pick up Frodo and carry him up Mount Doom.  Or for the Rohirrim to ride to ruin and the red dawn.  Or for the horn of helm hammerhand to sound in the deep one last time as Theoden rides out from the Hornburg. Or Boromir's last stand.  Or Aragorn confronting the army of the dead and commanding it to follow him.  You see, mostly book fans just want to see these awesome moments brought to life.  We don't need them jumbled around to fool us.  

[Agitel]

The after episode commentaries of 90% of premium shows I watch are filled with absolutely useless comments. Thinking that the only point they ever discussed with Uno during production was just "yeah this'll make them fear the Seanchan" and nothing else is just very cynical.

 

We're also talking about actor commitments, screen time, budget, and a lot of other factors that come to TV, and a huuuge cast of characters for the audience to remember. And Uno doesn't really have much of an arc at all in the books. Any one reason might seem weak by itself, but ultimately Uno didn't make the cut and he was able to serve a purpose in the show.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Agitel

[Samt]

8 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

  Reveal hidden contents

She couldn't mask it in the books though

 

Indeed.  But that's just because she doesn't learn the necessary mental discipline.  Not because she couldn't.

[DreadLord31]

2 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

I never really considered him like that, it is an interesting take I always saw him as ancilliary and other characters are the ones that teach the lessons, but I suppose if you see him as a constant then you can gauge how the other characters change against him, I think I always saw other characters closer to the main ones a that role, So egwene becomes more like Siuan, Mat more like the commanders of the red hand, Elayne Brigette, Nynaeve strangely becomes more moraine like in some ways. It is an interesting different take on the character. 

Yes - they can still, maybe will, achieve the same result with different characters that are actually more essential or important, at least, to the plot & show how the EF5 become less naive and like some of the people that they initially think are "backwards". But Uno was the 'old world-wise soldier'. And, I honestly don't really care they killed him. I was just making the point that I don't think they gave great thought to what Uno's bigger purpose in the books was. 

 

Just like I don't think they gave great 'book thought' to: Fain stabbing people with the dagger, the girls rather than Rand decimating the Trollocs, the soul gender stuff, ect... 

 

Really, my only point is, I don't have confidence that they are deeply concerned with book things when they are making certain changes. I think (for better or worse) they are making certain changes to A) appeal to a wider audience, and B) because they think "new" stuff is better than a close adaptation. 

 

If one takes this as - "a new turning of the wheel" and makes an effort not to compare it to the books - this season has been good TV, IMO. Comparison is the death of joy. 

[DreadLord31]

39 minutes ago, Agitel said:

Thinking that the only point they ever discussed with Uno during production was just "yeah this'll make them fear the Seanchan" and nothing else is just very cynical.

Nobody said this was their only consideration for production. But this IS what Rafe, himself said - if you just watch the Bonus content on Prime for the episode. He says, "We wanted the audience to love Uno" and we "wanted the audience to f'ing fear the Seanchan." 

 

Now, they've done so many fake out deaths already - here's to hoping Uno is magically fine in about 6 months! 😉 

[Elder_Haman]

4 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Mat is going to do with a certain horn...

I'm wondering if this is going to be the catalyst for his other ... abilities (for purposes of the show).

[Elder_Haman]

38 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

I don't have confidence that they are deeply concerned with book things

"book things" is way too broad here. I agree that they probably have very little concern about trimming or changing details that are peripheral to the emotional journeys of the EFF (and however they choose to tell Moiraine and Lan's journey from here). Everything else is undoubtedly on the block.

 

But to say they aren't concerned with "book things" is not true. I think they will always try to nod to the things that make a character memorable. In Uno's case it was being foul mouthed and having one eye. They gave us the, "hey that's Uno!" moment. And then they used him to service the rest of the story. (Seanchan bad, Uno's pride bad, moar tension.) That's what I think you should expect.

[DreadLord31]

2 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

"book things" is way too broad here. I agree that they probably have very little concern about trimming or changing details that are peripheral to the emotional journeys of the EFF (and however they choose to tell Moiraine and Lan's journey from here). Everything else is undoubtedly on the block.

 

But to say they aren't concerned with "book things" is not true. I think they will always try to nod to the things that make a character memorable. In Uno's case it was being foul mouthed and having one eye. They gave us the, "hey that's Uno!" moment. And then they used him to service the rest of the story. (Seanchan bad, Uno's pride bad, moar tension.) That's what I think you should expect.

 

Fair enough. I recant 😉 "book things" is a sweeping generalization.

[Samt]

4 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

Nobody said this was their only consideration for production. But this IS what Rafe, himself said - if you just watch the Bonus content on Prime for the episode. He says, "We wanted the audience to love Uno" and we "wanted the audience to f'ing fear the Seanchan." 

 

Now, they've done so many fake out deaths already - here's to hoping Uno is magically fine in about 6 months! 😉 

It's a fleshwound.  I've had worse.

[Storeebooq]

9 hours ago, Vartija said:

Btw, I was really impressed with the casting for Lady Anvaere Damodred. I immediately thought she looked familiar from something and it finally clicked that she played Servilia on HBO's Rome-series, and she was terrific in it. Is she the surprise visiting star that I read would be in Season 2? I assume we'll see more of her when Moiraine reaches Cairhien. 

 

Edit: I just realized she could have been great as one of the Wise Ones too. 

I also for a split second thought, "Cadsuane?"

[Storeebooq]

4 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

Nobody said this was their only consideration for production. But this IS what Rafe, himself said - if you just watch the Bonus content on Prime for the episode. He says, "We wanted the audience to love Uno" and we "wanted the audience to f'ing fear the Seanchan." 

 

Now, they've done so many fake out deaths already - here's to hoping Uno is magically fine in about 6 months! 😉 

Maybe Uno will be raised with the horn =] 

 

I loved Uno/Nyn dynamic in the books and I was pretty pissed he was killed. But it worked, I see the Seanchan as a terrible threat now because I fear they may actually do serious damage to my favorite characters, rather than just fearing what they will do to channelers & the ruling class. If they are not hesitant to take out a fan-favorite...well...dang, they are more threatening than the Forsaken at this point. 😵

[Scarloc99]

6 hours ago, Samt said:

If you just want to make the audience fear the Seanchan, you could have killed any number of random unnamed characters (either Shienaran or villagers).  You could even give one of the Shienarans a name and a brief backstory before killing him if you want to make it a little more emotional.  The only reasons I can think of to kill Uno specifically is either because the creators want to take out some personal angst on a fictional character or because they specifically wanted to misdirect book readers who might assume that he was safe (Agelmar not withstanding).  

 

This idea of needing to misdirect book readers (whether earnestly believed or simply used as an excuse to justify making changes) leaves me worried about the story.  I'm sure there are some book readers that are in for the thrill of it and want to be kept guessing.  However, I think most would be completely interested in watching a WoT adaptation even if they could basically predict all of the twists and turns as they were coming from the book.  Changes can be made or needed for lots of reasons, but changing to misdirect book readers is basically just changing it because you want to prove that you can.  I think a much healthier approach to adapting is to ask how can you avoid changing it rather than how can you get away with changing it.  The creators seem to be leaning very heavily towards the latter.  

 

As an example, basically all of the epic dramatic moments from the LOTR movies are either taken entirely from the books or are at least entirely predictable to book readers.  That doesn't it make it not awesome to see Gandalf staring down a balrog and yelling "You cannot pass."  Or to see Sam pick up Frodo and carry him up Mount Doom.  Or for the Rohirrim to ride to ruin and the red dawn.  Or for the horn of helm hammerhand to sound in the deep one last time as Theoden rides out from the Hornburg. Or Boromir's last stand.  Or Aragorn confronting the army of the dead and commanding it to follow him.  You see, mostly book fans just want to see these awesome moments brought to life.  We don't need them jumbled around to fool us.  

I think your reading far to much into this, yes they could have created a new character just to be killed but they have someone there, in the books, who connects with the readers with very little screen time, he is someone that is fully fleshed out and has a way of talking, and, he is someone who, if put in that same situation in the book RJ would probably have had die the same way because no way is Uno going to kneel. 

They needed to make the character likeable for the non book audience so the death was shocking, they wanted to give the book reading audience a little bit of an easter egg, so they took a character that people take to quickly, they Saving Private Ryan him, and then they kill him off. This is part of the ABC of script writing, instead of a random red shirt they decided to use someone that would elict a real emotional response from the audience, I liked it. 

[Scarloc99]

57 minutes ago, Storeebooq said:

Maybe Uno will be raised with the horn =] 

 

I loved Uno/Nyn dynamic in the books and I was pretty pissed he was killed. But it worked, I see the Seanchan as a terrible threat now because I fear they may actually do serious damage to my favorite characters, rather than just fearing what they will do to channelers & the ruling class. If they are not hesitant to take out a fan-favorite...well...dang, they are more threatening than the Forsaken at this point. 😵

I think your safe, Uno's plot armour was weak 🙂 

[Samt]

1 hour ago, Scarloc99 said:

I think your reading far to much into this, yes they could have created a new character just to be killed but they have someone there, in the books, who connects with the readers with very little screen time, he is someone that is fully fleshed out and has a way of talking, and, he is someone who, if put in that same situation in the book RJ would probably have had die the same way because no way is Uno going to kneel. 

They needed to make the character likeable for the non book audience so the death was shocking, they wanted to give the book reading audience a little bit of an easter egg, so they took a character that people take to quickly, they Saving Private Ryan him, and then they kill him off. This is part of the ABC of script writing, instead of a random red shirt they decided to use someone that would elict a real emotional response from the audience, I liked it. 

I think we’re basically agreeing. They killed Uno specifically because book readers wouldn’t expect it and that would cause it to have more impact.

 I see that as a cheap way to score emotional points that will ultimately undermine rather than enhance the emotional investment that book readers have in the show. If it’s used sparingly, maybe it won’t matter.

[Chivalry]

I felt this was an emotionally compelling episode. I didn't know what to expect, as the show has deviated far from the books, but I found it enjoyable (it left me wanting for more).