WoT Season 2 Episode 2: Strangers and Friends

[Scarloc99]

  On 9/3/2023 at 1:20 PM, Guire said:

Wonder if Adeleas will also be involved in Verin and Tomas alternative lifestyle?  If not we may have a familial killing.  Also a majority of sisters with spoken lines this season are likely walking in the shadow.

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I think we will have a sister killing sister, the TV writers may choose to reveal Verin is black far earlier and openly so the big reveal has time to properly ferment. In the book we never really see Verin being a “darkfriend” so she is still pure and good in many readers heads when she makes her big reveal. I do wish instead of hiding the fact she was black RJ had made it openly obvious and almost made the reader hate her, only to then have the big reveal as a true moment of redemption. 

[DigificWriter]

Rafe and his team have already signalled (either intentionally or because of external circumstance) that readers shouldn't be sure that they know everything that's going to happen, which is why, despite not being a WoT-specific reader myself, I don't mind spoilers from the books and therefore ignore spoiler warnings from the WoTTubers and WoT podcasts that I'm following.

 

So characters whom readers know to be dark in the novels might not be guaranteed to be dark in the show, characters whom readers know survived in the novels may not survive in the novels (see Uno), etc.

[DaddyFinn]

 

That's a major "easter egg". 🙊

[Rhaze]

 I like the theory of since Fain and Mat are both infected by Mordeth that they could be entwined.

 

 Also, it could be Fain cuts Rand like the books, and Mat kills Fain (the infection).

[Mirefox]

I have been, and continue to be, a huge critic of the show but this was one of the better episodes I’ve seen.  That said, I cannot stand what they are doing with Moiraine and Lan and the way in which they are doing it.

[DreadLord31]

So some things I noticed on my rewatch I didn’t notice the first time (and I apologize if these were already mentioned - I didn’t read everybody’s posts): 

 

A) The Perrin scene with the flies is a nod to a chapter in the Great Hunt that happens to Rand, but that was a much creepier scene in the book though. 
 

B) When Liandrin takes Nynaeve to see a break-bone fever healing she says, “We come only to observe. 
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Which is a lie. She also came to steal crimson thorn for her son. Who I’m guessing is a product of rape — pretty sure that’ll be a backstory reveal… 

C) Liandrin told Nynaeve to come by her room and then “just left, perhaps you can catch her” I.E Liandrin wanted Nynaeve to follow her?? 
 

D) Verin says, “3 Fades we’re hunting you…you didn’t think we’d ask why?” 
 

  Reveal hidden contents

There were 4 Fades… writers incompetent? Or that detail slipped in there on purpose? 

E) Verin says that there are books in the Tower that speak of “Toman head, battles in the sky, a sword of flame, and a branded hand that wields it.”

  Reveal hidden contents

Perhaps we will get a season finale that is awfully close to the book

 

F) Moiraine explicitly says that “Isha’mael cut her off” (not stilled her)

I predict that, there will be a payoff before the end of the season that her line “we were never equals” means “you were always better than me, Lan”. 

[Scarloc99]

  On 9/4/2023 at 3:11 AM, DreadLord31 said:

So some things I noticed on my rewatch I didn’t notice the first time (and I apologize if these were already mentioned - I didn’t read everybody’s posts): 

 

A) The Perrin scene with the flies is a nod to a chapter in the Great Hunt that happens to Rand, but that was a much creepier scene in the book though. 
 

B) When Liandrin takes Nynaeve to see a break-bone fever healing she says, “We come only to observe. 
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Which is a lie. She also came to steal crimson thorn for her son. Who I’m guessing is a product of rape — pretty sure that’ll be a backstory reveal… 

C) Liandrin told Nynaeve to come by her room and then “just left, perhaps you can catch her” I.E Liandrin wanted Nynaeve to follow her?? 
 

D) Verin says, “3 Fades we’re hunting you…you didn’t think we’d ask why?” 
 

  Reveal hidden contents

There were 4 Fades… writers incompetent? Or that detail slipped in there on purpose? 

E) Verin says that there are books in the Tower that speak of “Toman head, battles in the sky, a sword of flame, and a branded hand that wields it.”

  Reveal hidden contents

Perhaps we will get a season finale that is awfully close to the book

 

F) Moiraine explicitly says that “Isha’mael cut her off” (not stilled her)

I predict that, there will be a payoff before the end of the season that her line “we were never equals” means “you were always better than me, Lan”. 

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I am convinced it isn’t her son and is all part of her plot to cover up her real nature, or it is her son but he was “punished” either for her or his failure. The writers are leaning heavily on this, if season 1 was about “who is the dragon” season 2 will be “who is really good and evil and who can be trusted”.
 

Selene with Rand, Elyas with Perrin, Min with Mat, Moraine with Lan, and Liandrin. 

 

Setting Liandrin up as a relatable character and then doing the switch (possibly with her death end of season 2 at the hands of the girls), means when Elaida comes along the audience more easily get sucked into thinking she is a darkfriend leading to another gotcha moment. 

[notpropaganda73]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned - when Verin confronts Moiraine about the Dragon, she doesn't say "one of the group" or "one of the Two Rivers folk" that Moiraine brought with her to Tar Valon, she specifically says "boys" doesn't she? 

 

I'm wondering if that's a confirmation that the Dragon could only ever have been a man. That the Aes Sedai in general in the TV show are severely lacking in knowledge and understanding of the prophecies and that Verin will be absolutely key in the series, perhaps even more so than in the books, in terms of acting as a source of knowledge and:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

a potential source for misinformation. As someone mentioned, I actually think revealing her as Black Ajah much earlier in the show will work really well, it's always fun and potential for great scenes when the audience knows something the characters do not.

 

Or I could be reading too much into one line 😅

[DreadLord31]

  On 9/4/2023 at 5:15 AM, Scarloc99 said:

I am convinced it isn’t her son and is all part of her plot to cover up her real nature, or it is her son but he was “punished” either for her or his failure. The writers are leaning heavily on this, if season 1 was about “who is the dragon” season 2 will be “who is really good and evil and who can be trusted”.
 

Selene with Rand, Elyas with Perrin, Min with Mat, Moraine with Lan, and Liandrin. 

 

Setting Liandrin up as a relatable character and then doing the switch (possibly with her death end of season 2 at the hands of the girls), means when Elaida comes along the audience more easily get sucked into thinking she is a darkfriend leading to another gotcha moment. 

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She said, “My son, my beautiful boy.” Now, if he’s not, it’s because she Can lie. But I think they’re setting up her mixed motivations by having Liandrin have a son that was the product of rape. Thus, she A) sort of hates men, B) wants women to have power over men, C) sort of has a “good” reason for gentling men.

 

I think your analysis is very good; I would add that season 1 was the mystery of the Dragon, this season is the mystery of the Darkfriends (I like your added piece of, who can they trust?). 
 

We started with a cold open that showed that we have a Seanchan, a Whitecloak, an Aes Sedai, and a Shinaran as Darkfriends (and some others). 
 

So notice then that: 

  Reveal hidden contents

Perrin is with Ingtar and Ingtar says about Padan Fain being a darkfriend, “Maybe he had a reason. You might not like the answer, but it’s worth asking the question.” The show might try to faint that Elyas can’t be trusted, Avi can’t be trusted, and it’ll be a “surprise” when it’s Ingtar. 
 

The show is making us think we can’t trust Min, I’m guessing it’ll actually be Liandrin that is revealed with Matt & Nynaeve (who she’s been primarily paired with). 
 

With Rand there is Selene and Logain. 
 

We might get a Sheriam reveal and she might be the one to deliver Egwene and Elayne to the Seanchan??
 

The show may, I think, even have Verin & Tomas revealed with Moiraine/Lan. 
 

And in future episodes I think we’ll get nuance with the Whitecloaks (I hope) and some who are and who aren’t actually evil. And get them as more 3d. Though I’m really having my doubts that Rafe/the writers can be nuance with male characters and certain societies. It seems to me that they really like the WT and not much else. But I’m hoping they help us to “see it from their perspective” and actually like some Whitecloaks and Seanchan (and don’t just flatten them to being “evil”). Why they are dangerous is that they believe they are doing the “right thing”. 

 

 

[Vartija]

Maybe the Aes Sedai in the Darkfriend meeting was Verin? Ishamael names Rand as the Dragon so that's where she could have picked up that it's a man. Then she obfuscates a little by asking if it's one of the three boys so she doesn't appear too all knowing. 

[Mailman]

The dialogue is terrible.

 

WTF was the thing the Seachan got carried in on. Moving that thing any distance is simply impractical.

 

Really have no idea how people without background book knowledge would have any clue what is going on.

 

The show is just so incredibly disappointing.

[DigificWriter]

I'm going to repeat a thing that I said earlier: I don't think book fans should be 100% confident that they know who is or isn't going to be aligned with the dark in the show.

[Guire]

  On 9/4/2023 at 1:39 PM, DigificWriter said:

I'm going to repeat a thing that I said earlier: I don't think book fans should be 100% confident that they know who is or isn't going to be aligned with the dark in the show.

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If Verin doesnt get her arc, Rafe better get lots of plastic surgery and disappear somewhere on a south Pacific island.  

[Agitel]

I agree that who is and isn't a darkfriend in the show may be different. We already got confirmation, apparently, that Elaida is in season three, but I could have seen Liandrin's role being changed.

 

Verin... That isn't a minor thing. I'm not sure I'd even call it a secondary thing like Liandrin is. I could even say them changing Sheriam (though I think I did see suggestive shifty eyes on her at some point, but that could be turned into misdirection). Of course Rafe could change it. He "could" have made Egwene the Dragon Reborn, too. I don't see Verin being changed. I'm not going to say it's impossible, but I find it very, very unlikely.

Edited September 4, 2023 by Agitel

[DigificWriter]

  On 9/4/2023 at 2:03 PM, Agitel said:

We already got confirmation, apparently, that Elaida is in season two

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Correction: we've gotten confirmation that she'll be in the show; we haven't had it confirmed when she'll make her appearance.

[Agitel]

Oops, I meant to write season three and not two, but you're right her appearance date hasn't been confirmed. Season 3 would make the most sense if I was plotting it out in alignment with the books (it would still be a delayed intro as she was in Book 1), but it could be later if they put off a major multi-book arc for the whole setting and multiple characters.

 

Anyway, back to what I was saying about Verin... As a character and as a plot point, that is certainly a more "sacred" point to the book's plot and to fans than imo either Liandrin and Sheriam are. Some things are going to carry over from the books, and I think it incredibly likely Verin's plot point will not be changed. Of course, nothing is impossible. I consider myself open to pretty liberal changes to squeeze this into 6-8 seasons, understanding of the changes they make while trying to hit major climaxes without being redundant, and just putting myself into the heads of the showrunner and fans, I think it's fine to be on the confident side regarding Verin.

Edited September 4, 2023 by Agitel

[Agitel]

Nothing's certain, of course, but what I'm saying is that I wouldn't place a friendly bet on Liandrin and Sheriam. I would on Verin.

 

(Mods: I'm not actually propositioning and online bet, just illustrating where I'm at.)

[Scarloc99]

  On 9/4/2023 at 1:39 PM, DigificWriter said:

I'm going to repeat a thing that I said earlier: I don't think book fans should be 100% confident that they know who is or isn't going to be aligned with the dark in the show.

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I think that is a bait and switch, if a character was a dark friend in the books, they will be so in the show. It makes no sense to switch out who is or isn't a darkfriend. Especially the black Ajah, it is more likely that the writers try and throw us all by suggesting that things might change, much like Rafe talked about the Dragon could be male or female in the interviews heading into season 1. Just because we have not seen Elaida yet does not mean she can't have a perfectly good introduction later on in the season where she does something. 

[DigificWriter]

  On 9/4/2023 at 2:49 PM, Scarloc99 said:

if a character was a dark friend in the books, they will be so in the show

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I disagree with your confidence based on what Rafe and his team have thus far signalled about their approach to adapting the books.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 9/4/2023 at 1:20 PM, Mailman said:

The dialogue is terrible.

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Why?

 

  On 9/4/2023 at 1:20 PM, Mailman said:

WTF was the thing the Seachan got carried in on

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High Lady Suroth was carried in on it - it's a giant palanquin.

 

  On 9/4/2023 at 1:20 PM, Mailman said:

Moving that thing any distance is simply impractical.

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A whole lot of what the Seanchan nobility do isn't practical. Their culture is based on slave labor.

 

  On 9/4/2023 at 1:20 PM, Mailman said:

Really have no idea how people without background book knowledge would have any clue what is going on.

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Neither my kids (18 and 16) nor my wife has had any trouble following what's going on. My kids were not super impressed with S1 (it was "mid") but are enjoying S2. Wife has enjoyed both seasons so far. 

 

  On 9/4/2023 at 1:20 PM, Mailman said:

The show is just so incredibly disappointing.

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I'm sorry you feel that way.

[Scarloc99]

  On 9/4/2023 at 3:28 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

I disagree with your confidence based on what Rafe and his team have thus far signalled about their approach to adapting the books.

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and yet so far they have stuck to the main character themes and arcs. We will have to wait and find out but I really see no benefit to the story in changing who is and isn't a dark friend other then purposely faking us all out. 

[Scarloc99]

  On 9/4/2023 at 1:20 PM, Mailman said:

The dialogue is terrible.

 

WTF was the thing the Seachan got carried in on. Moving that thing any distance is simply impractical.

 

Really have no idea how people without background book knowledge would have any clue what is going on.

 

The show is just so incredibly disappointing.

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please give some actual constructive feedback, how was the Dialogue terrible, it was a massive improvement on season 1.

The Seanchan Palanquin is described in the books, yes Tuon rides it in the books rather then Suroth but as Tuons representative you can imagine Suroth putting herself in the same position, especially given certain promises have no doubt been made to her. I mean at the Last Battle Mat himself thinks it is mad that she has such a large impractical chair she is carried around on. 

My Wife, never read the books, absolutely knows what is going on and has made it clear in the comments she has said that the writers are doing a great job in explaining the important things. So I would suggest your assumptions maybe need reassessing there. 

 

Finally I am sorry your disappointed but you don't need to watch, the books have not changed they are still there I would ask however what is it you expected from the TV show? There where always going to be changes and there where always going to be things cut, and when things are cut they have impacts on the things being kept in. 

[DigificWriter]

  On 9/4/2023 at 3:39 PM, Scarloc99 said:

I really see no benefit to the story in changing who is and isn't a dark friend other then purposely faking us all out. 

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"Purposely faking audiences out" would be the story benefit behind changing the identities of Darkfriends between the books and the show, and lean even further into the producer-stated notion that this adaptation represents an entirely new Turning of the Wheel of Time itself.

[Agitel]

I will say I don't view the book Seanchan attacking a tiny town that has no army. If it was a fortified city or military base, yes. It's less dramatic, but I imagine them literally just marching into a tiny town like this, declaring the town is now part of the Seanchan Empire, then demanding oaths. Maybe there's some door to door and violence in forcing paths, but just raiding such a small hamlet in the night seems a bit much. Just marching in uncontested almost displays power more.

 

This isn't a significant criticism, or maybe even much of a criticism at all. I get why they did it for TV, and the Seanchan can be a bit different for the show. Just something that crossed my book-brained mind.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 9/4/2023 at 3:28 PM, DigificWriter said:

I disagree with your confidence based on what Rafe and his team have thus far signalled about their approach to adapting the books.

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I think you're both right, sort of. I think that characters who are sort of on the periphery (Uno is a good example) will have their plots and motivations changed. Some may become Darkfriends, others who were evil will not be. But anyone who is absolutely critical to the plot (i.e. Verin) is going to remain as she is in the books.