Just a thought for viewers who read the books first

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

Do you who have read the books prior to the show think that you would like the show more or less if you hadn’t read the books? I feel like in some ways the knowledge and context of the source material was a big plus for me in terms of my ability to hang in there with elements that struck me as potentially confusing or even overall may have lacked the draw or interest of viewers who had no book experience. On the other hand, I wonder if some of my grievances about the show would not exist without having read the books first and therefore coming to the show “fresh”. Any thoughts?

[Skipp]

Having picked up the books in the late 90's and having read them on a near yearly basis until the pandemic I do really enjoy the show.  I love being able to pick out the easter eggs and knowing instantly what characters are talking about.  But it has also provided hurdles as some of the things I "know" are now wrong.  This is not a bad thing but it does cause me to have to re-evaluate things from time to time.  But since I also follow the behind the scenes closely I tend to know of these changes early and can adjust early.

 

I also appreciate that due to the changes they make we, as a community, get to theorize again at potential plot paths and the such.  It is so very exciting.

[DigificWriter]

I don't like the books despite having read some of them, but I can definitely say that, if I did like them, it still wouldn't have had any impact on my enjoyment of the show because I've resolved to treat adaptations as wholly separate entities from the source material that spawned them and therefore judge them on their own merits (or lack thereof).

Edited August 12, 2023 by DigificWriter

[Mailman]

I would have abandoned the show probably around mid season and certainly after episode 8 if I had not read the books.

[DojoToad]

I probably would have liked the show better if I had never read the books.  Though there were still problems with the show...

 

Would have like a fantasy show, but still would have had problems with 'Dark Crystal' trollocs and terrible (IMO) battle scenes.

[Elglin]

I'd say that I like the show a lot less than I could because I've read the books (my wife found it "kinda ok", she hasn't read the books). However, I would not have been attracted to the show if I hadn't read the books in the first place. I mean, fantasy shows are a dime a dozen these days, not that it helps with the quality.

My biggest beef with the show is not that it's bad as fantasy shows go, it's just so much worse than it could have been. Should have been.

[Guire]

Its a weird situation created by this adaptation.  I think i would need the xray shorts and some additional outside info too appreciate and understand show.  However my book knowledge makes me dislike many of the adaptation choices because I disagree with so many of the choices.  An example is Stepin and Karenne arc.  I loved those 2 characters because they embodied lots of the things I loved about book characters.  At same time I was pissed because their arc felt overdone and took time away from character development of main characters.  Elyas could have given us lots of same info about warder bond while developing Perrin, Egwene, Tinker arc IMHO in a more entertaining way.

[Vartija]

14 hours ago, Guire said:

Its a weird situation created by this adaptation.  I think i would need the xray shorts and some additional outside info too appreciate and understand show.  However my book knowledge makes me dislike many of the adaptation choices because I disagree with so many of the choices.  An example is Stepin and Karenne arc.  I loved those 2 characters because they embodied lots of the things I loved about book characters.  At same time I was pissed because their arc felt overdone and took time away from character development of main characters.  Elyas could have given us lots of same info about warder bond while developing Perrin, Egwene, Tinker arc IMHO in a more entertaining way.

Great point. I could also appreciate the Kerene/Stepin arc from a storytelling point of view but at the same time agonized over the time "wasted" on a character I knew from book experience would die pretty soon. But I could see non book readers liking that part of season 1. It was well written and the friendship between them felt like a breath of fresh air amid all the bickering between the main cast. For some reason I felt like the writers were much more comfortable writing Kerene's & Stepin's story than they were when they were trying to write for the main cast following their book arc. 

 

I actually think Stepin's actor could have made for a great Elyas.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Vartija

[Scarloc99]

I don't think not reading the books would have impacted how much I enjoyed it. It had it's issues, many of us can accept it is in no way a perfect fantasy TV show, but, I always gave it the benefit of the doubt due to Covid. My wife, Neighbours and many friends have never read the books and they Loved it, especially the "who is the dragon" debate through the early episodes. Rafe managed to pull that off well, at least amongst the people I knew. 

[Scarloc99]

14 hours ago, Guire said:

Its a weird situation created by this adaptation.  I think i would need the xray shorts and some additional outside info too appreciate and understand show.  However my book knowledge makes me dislike many of the adaptation choices because I disagree with so many of the choices.  An example is Stepin and Karenne arc.  I loved those 2 characters because they embodied lots of the things I loved about book characters.  At same time I was pissed because their arc felt overdone and took time away from character development of main characters.  Elyas could have given us lots of same info about warder bond while developing Perrin, Egwene, Tinker arc IMHO in a more entertaining way.

But, and this is the key thing, anyone else telling about the bond (Elyas, Lan, etc) means a long bit of exposition where they are telling another character stuff, That never sinks in with an audience, it would have gone over non book viewers heads and been lost to the ether. 

By showing the impact losing his Aes Sedai had on Steppin you really impact on the audience what that means to Lan later on. They have seen one Warder kill himself, what is Lan going to do. Likewise, and it is a point so many seem to ignore or forget, at the last battle the Bond is a key part of Moridins plan to get Rand to destroy the wheel of time. That rush against time Nyn trying to save Alanna so she can drop the bond, is really badly written in the books, but will translate well on screen, but only if the viewer is invested in what it means to Rand if Alanna dies. 

Show don't tell is a really key thing in tv and movie storytelling, if you tell to much then your product becomes the first suicide squad movie, full of long drawn out speeches about characters backgrounds and motivations. If you do the Show part then it is more like it's far superior sequel. 

[Vartija]

I would probably enjoy the show as an independent piece of entertainment more if I didn't know the source material. I can't completely switch off my book reader's pov and expectations of how I want to see book events on screen. I admit would prefer a more faithful approach to the books than what we got in season 1. On the other hand I love comparing the two mediums and reading others opinions about the changes as well. 

 

When I first started watching GoT I was completely new to the franchise and binged through the two seasons that were available. I read the books between seasons 2 & 3 and that changed my relationship with the show quite a lot. I became a lot more nitpicky about the changes and I had a lot more "why did they change this"-thoughts nagging me the rest of the way. And it was still a remarkably faithful adaption of the books up until season 4 at least. 

[Ralph]

I would not have watched the show at all had I not read the books. 

 

I have very little time for TV at all, and pick very carefully what i know I will enjoy. 

 

I had not read ASOIAF when GOT became a phenomenon, and then went to read the books before considering watching. Read them all, then started the show and didn't even get through one episode. 

 

With WOT I enjoyed the show most of the time although found some of the changes frustrating. Eps 7-8 I did not enjoy at all, but am blaming it on Covid. The actual. change to the ending I did enjoy very much and am waiting to see how it pans out in S2. The triangle in Ep7 and the battle in Ep8 were the low points of the season IMHO. 

 

But had it followed the books exactly I think I would have watched but may have found it less interesting overall. I don't need a TV series to picture it in my mind. And the ending of EoTW never fit right for me anyway. 

[nsmallw]

I hate it that the show has to not show exposition scenes because our modern selves apparently have short attention spans and cant handle a dialogue scene longer than 1 minute. 

[Vartija]

41 minutes ago, nsmallw said:

I hate it that the show has to not show exposition scenes because our modern selves apparently have short attention spans and cant handle a dialogue scene longer than 1 minute. 

It can be done, but it takes skill to design a scene where exposition happens naturally without it feeling like they are ticking a box and force feeding information to the viewer. Monologues especially are difficult and can often feel clunky. For example, I like the scene in the books where Agelmar tells the story of Lan's background, but I can't see that scene working out in tv format. 

 

I think Game of Thrones had a bunch of exposition dumps and dialogue heavy scenes that worked brilliantly. One of my favourites was from season 1 where Tywin and Jaime hold a four minute discussion in a tent while Tywin is skinning a deer. 

 

[nsmallw]

Yes, thanks for using that GOT example showing how it can be done well. 

[Jake Sykwalker]

Definitely would have given the show a chance if I hadn't read the books and the comic and listened to the audio book.  However IMHO the show was so poorly done compared to those things it was unwatchable.  On its own it may have been a B- level sci-fi/fantasy show that I may have been ok with.

 

However RJ was very smart in his writing.  He linked things together through his narratives that show up later in books exactly as he set up.  He played around with Societal roles and made comments on them that tried to examine and swap around traditional roles.  It wasn't always well done and sometimes simplistic, but he had a plan.  His style was not for everybody, but he had a talent for painting a picture of characters and their world.

 

Rafe's version is just a quickly thrown together trope filled stream of consciousness.   Even with a WoT expert and Brandon Sanderson he still got TONS of stuff wrong.  Things that didn't have to change, but he chose to change because he wanted to put his own spin on things.  Unfortunately for me his 'spin' on things was very juvenile and uninteresting.  It appears Rafe either lacks talent, or just really doesn't like the books and wants to write his own version.  

 

TLDR:  Robert Jordan (flaws and all) was a passionate and talented writer.  Rafe thinks he is a talented writer, but is really not.  IIRC he wrote E1 and E8 some of the most panned and worst structured episodes.  Judkins is way out of his talent depth here and it shows.  Lets hope he got a lot of studio 'help' for S2.  

[Elder_Haman]

24 minutes ago, Jake Sykwalker said:

Rafe thinks he is a talented writer, but is really not.

Rafe does not write the show. 

[Samt]

3 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Rafe does not write the show. 

He is literally credited as the writer for episodes 1 and 8, as @Jake Sykwalker stated.  

[DojoToad]

45 minutes ago, Samt said:

He is literally credited as the writer for episodes 1 and 8, as @Jake Sykwalker stated.  

That would explain a few things

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, Samt said:

He is literally credited as the writer for episodes 1 and 8, as @Jake Sykwalker stated.  

THE writer? or A writer? It's a meaningful distinction. Guess who else is credited as A writer for those episodes? Robert Jordan.

[DojoToad]

18 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

THE writer? or A writer? It's a meaningful distinction. Guess who else is credited as A writer for those episodes? Robert Jordan.

Right could be meaningless - he could have changed a word.  Or made a more meaningful contribution.

 

Remember how many producers they had for 8 episodes, believe it was high teens.

Edited August 24, 2023 by DojoToad

[Samt]

26 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

THE writer? or A writer? It's a meaningful distinction. Guess who else is credited as A writer for those episodes? Robert Jordan.

I'm pretty sure you're just making stuff up and assuming that no one will check, because you are verifiably wrong.  

 

The second line of the credits in episode 1 is: "Written for Television by Rafe Lee Judkins."     The credits do say, "Based on the Wheel of Time Series by Robert Jordan."  But they do not credit Robert Jordan as a writer for the TV series.  

 

Buried further on, there are credits for "Story Editors:  The Clarkson Twins,"   "Staff Writer: Celine Song,"  "Writer's PA: Tim Earle,"  "Writers' Assistants: Kate McKenna, Michael Carrithers."   But Rafe Judkins is alone taking early billing and the only person credited as a writer without modification.   If this is a case of him getting an additional writing credit because he changed a word here or there, the person who actually wrote the episode got robbed.  

[Elder_Haman]

23 minutes ago, Samt said:

I'm pretty sure you're just making stuff up and assuming that no one will check, because you are verifiably wrong.  

 

The second line of the credits in episode 1 is: "Written for Television by Rafe Lee Judkins."     The credits do say, "Based on the Wheel of Time Series by Robert Jordan."  But they do not credit Robert Jordan as a writer for the TV series.  

 

Buried further on, there are credits for "Story Editors:  The Clarkson Twins,"   "Staff Writer: Celine Song,"  "Writer's PA: Tim Earle,"  "Writers' Assistants: Kate McKenna, Michael Carrithers."   But Rafe Judkins is alone taking early billing and the only person credited as a writer without modification.   If this is a case of him getting an additional writing credit because he changed a word here or there, the person who actually wrote the episode got robbed.  

Please check IMDB. I’ll wait. 

[Samt]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

Please check IMDB. I’ll wait. 

 

Wouldn't want to keep you waiting. 

 

IMDB lumps a lot of different credits together as "writing credits,"  but that doesn't mean every person who gets them is credited as a writer.  

 

From IMDB  (For clarity, I added strikethroughs to all of the credits that don't pertain to episode 1.  I also added strikethroughs to credits for editors and developers, since that is clearly different than writing.):

Series Writing Credits  

Robert Jordan	...	(based on "The Wheel of Time" series by) (9 episodes, 2021-2023)
Rafe Judkins	...	(developed by) (9 episodes, 2021-2023)
Rafe Judkins	...	(written for television by) (2 episodes, 2021)
Michael Clarkson	...	(story editor) (8 episodes, 2021)
Michael Clarkson	...	(written for television by) (1 episode, 2021)
Paul Clarkson	...	(story editor) (8 episodes, 2021)
Paul Clarkson	...	(written for television by) (1 episode, 2021)
Celine Song	...	(staff writer) (8 episodes, 2021)
Celine Song	...	(written for television by) (1 episode, 2021)
Rammy Park	...	(staff writer) (8 episodes, 2023)
Rammy Park	...	(written by) (1 episode, 2023)
Amanda Kate Shuman	...	(written for television by) (3 episodes, 2021-2023)
Katherine B. McKenna	...	(staff writer) (1 episode, 2023)
Katherine B. McKenna	...	(written for television by) (1 episode, 2021)
Justine Juel Gillmer	...	(written for television by) (1 episode, 2021)
Dave Hill	...	(written for television by) (1 episode, 2021)

 

That leaves us with Celine Song and Rammy Park (the credits for episode 1 don't list him, so this is probably an error in IMDB)  listed as "staff writers," Rafe Judkins, and Robert Jordan.  

 

Every episode gives second billing (right after the director) to someone who is credited as "Written for Television by..."  I think it's fair to say that person is the writer for the episode.  I assume the staff writers do contribute.  But if the person getting top billing as the writer is not the principal writer, that would seem like a clear injustice in billing.  

[SinisterDeath]

@Elder_Haman in this case @Samt is 100% correct here.

Rafe Judkins is the Showrunner, and he wrote the script for Episodes 1 & 8.
As the showrunner, he is by and large the primary writer for the show.
What that entails, is writing the story boards & plot for the entire season.

One way to look at this is... He's the guy who puts together a rough plot. An Outline. Like a very rough draft of a comic book. 

He presents a rough draft of events, the major story beats for the other other writers (Like a project manager) to fill in the blanks... this is done in the Writers Room... which from the sound of it.. this show actually had. (And it's why they shot down the idea, and why I joke that Rafe probably had to restrain Sara from shanking one writers (or the other way around?) when someone suggested making Perrin a bear brother...)