Siuan's tattoos

[king of nowhere]

after the latest wotwednesday drop on the topic, I feel kinda bad for all the work that went into it and that nobody noticed.

you don't really see it much unless you stop the frame and focus on it anyway

[Elder_Haman]

So much care was put into the visual details of this show. It’s impressive!
 

I will reiterate that the writers were absolutely the weak link in this show. Costumes, cinematography, art direction - really all of the visuals (a few clunky CGI bits notwithstanding) are absolutely top notch. The acting was outstanding. 
 

Writing was … mid. (As the kids say)

Edited April 26, 2023 by Elder_Haman

[Joe B]

I don’t really care about the tattoos. Why bother creating a “language of tattoos” for the Tairen culture? That is not adaptation. That is creation. 

Edited April 26, 2023 by Joe B

[zacz1987]

3 hours ago, Joe B said:

I don’t really care about the tattoos. Why bother creating a “language of tattoos” for the Tairen culture? That is not adaptation. That is creation. 

I agree. I didn't have a problem with tattoos themselves but it seems a lot of work and time for something that really doesn't matter.

 

This was my main issue with Season 1 in general and unfortunately I'm not hopeful it will be much different in season 2.

[DojoToad]

6 hours ago, zacz1987 said:

I agree. I didn't have a problem with tattoos themselves but it seems a lot of work and time for something that really doesn't matter.

 

This was my main issue with Season 1 in general and unfortunately I'm not hopeful it will be much different in season 2.

Doesn't really matter that you know of.  Maybe they are the key to unlocking portal stones or navigating through the Ways...

 

If it was created just for Tairen culture - meh.  Does seem like a lot of effort for something you have to slow down to frame-by-frame to appreciate.  There may be a story tie in, as the optimists say - WAFO.

[RainHarlow]

'Well, we gotta do something with this phat budget from Bezos! Does anyone have some cousins with obscure degrees?'

[WhiteVeils]

I think this change was done for a specific reason.  Having the tattoo there is what let us see without any explanation at all that that poor fisherman's daughter in the cold open of episode 6 was also the extremely powerful Amyrlin Seat when we see her later.
/THAT/ tells us a few other things.  
Showing Siuan being poor and becoming Amyrlin shows that Nynaeve's understanding about the Aes Sedai (believing that they are elitist rulers of the world, not caring about or even knowing about 'the little people') is wrong. Nynaeve being wrong here introduces us to the idea that character knowledge and POV is incomplete and can be wrong, which is a very important concept for later in the season or in S2.

If they do keep Siuan's stilling and escape in the books, although she won't actually change her face to look more youthful like she does in the books, she can and will look very different without all the makeup and regalness of her Amyrlin clothes. She'd be hard to recognize at the same person.  But with the tattoos (which are all where they can be covered up as needed), the audience will know she's the same person, and the Salidar Aes Sedai will know she's the same person, without any explanation needed at all. They'll just know.

Now, they could have used just about any tattoo. But making the tattoo something which has some significance just adds depth and flavor to the culture (and shows why a father would tattoo a daughter, which is, if not culturally demanded, not so cool).

[king of nowhere]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

I think this change was done for a specific reason.  Having the tattoo there is what let us see without any explanation at all that that poor fisherman's daughter in the cold open of episode 6 was also the extremely powerful Amyrlin Seat when we see her later.
/THAT/ tells us a few other things. 

good point.

though still going to be missed by any but the most observant viewer.

that said, the books are full of subtle things that nobody will notice unless they look for an internet guide, so in this the tv show keeps to the spirit of the book

[DojoToad]

10 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

good point.

though still going to be missed by any but the most observant viewer.

that said, the books are full of subtle things that nobody will notice unless they look for an internet guide, so in this the tv show keeps to the spirit of the book

Right, if you needed to go frame-by-frame to see the tattoo they missed the opportunity for a subtle set-up.  If @WhiteVeils is correct in her idea, bad editing wrecked a great plan.

[WhiteVeils]

Well, the tattoos on her front were definitely not something anyone needed to go frame by frame for. They were front and center.

The meaning of them, the detail...I think that was just a designer being really conscientious and caring alot about the product they produced.  They didn't /have/ to work out all the meaning and show it...they could have designed any kind of tattoo. But they chose to because they really cared about the show and wanted to do the best they could.  Artists need to be given that kind of freedom...the freedom to care about their product.  It doesn't cost more to design a tattoo with significance than one without, after all.  But it means a lot to how the people creating the product feel about it...and it should mean something to us.

[DojoToad]

2 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

Well, the tattoos on her front were definitely not something anyone needed to go frame by frame for. They were front and center.

The meaning of them, the detail...I think that was just a designer being really conscientious and caring alot about the product they produced.  They didn't /have/ to work out all the meaning and show it...they could have designed any kind of tattoo. But they chose to because they really cared about the show and wanted to do the best they could.  Artists need to be given that kind of freedom...the freedom to care about their product.  It doesn't cost more to design a tattoo with significance than one without, after all.  But it means a lot to how the people creating the product feel about it...and it should mean something to us.

You lost me there.  Just because an artist pours all their blood, sweat and tears into a project doesn't obligate me to feel a particular way about it - I could be completely indifferent.

 

Many professional athletes train their bodies, restrict their diet, study film to put on amazing performances in their respective sports.  Doesn't have to mean something to me.

 

Same with the designer of the tattoos.  The end result might be technically perfect, cutting edge and/or meaningful to the designer but why should that mean something to me?  I don't know her/him.  Anymore than my kid's refrigerator art should be meaningful to my neighbor...  The tattoo may be the most beautiful piece of art I've ever seen, an ungodly mess, or a shoulder shrug.  Why should it mean something to me?

 

Not a tattoo expert, but I would think that most tattoo artists charge more to design something of significance to their customers than a generic pattern from the wall.

Edited April 28, 2023 by DojoToad

[WhiteVeils]

The tattoos don't have to mean anything to you at all. You don't even have to see them.  The artist/artists who came up with this weren't tattoo artists who charge by the more elaborate design because they charge by the design. And they aren't tattooing /you/.  They are makeup artists or costume designers.  They get a price for working on the show, and they will make more money if they can show other studios that they can do a good job and care about their work, and they also get creative and professional satisfaction if they do it well. Just because you don't notice every detail of a costume doesn't mean no one will. Certainly the actor will notice, and that will inform their performance.  And that goes into what you see.

[DojoToad]

36 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

The tattoos don't have to mean anything to you at all. You don't even have to see them.  The artist/artists who came up with this weren't tattoo artists who charge by the more elaborate design because they charge by the design. And they aren't tattooing /you/.  They are makeup artists or costume designers.  They get a price for working on the show, and they will make more money if they can show other studios that they can do a good job and care about their work, and they also get creative and professional satisfaction if they do it well. Just because you don't notice every detail of a costume doesn't mean no one will. Certainly the actor will notice, and that will inform their performance.  And that goes into what you see.

But your previous comment was it should mean something to us.  My question was - why?  Sorry for not being clear.

 

3 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

But it means a lot to how the people creating the product feel about it...and it should mean something to us.

 

[WhiteVeils]

23 hours ago, DojoToad said:

But your previous comment was it should mean something to us.  My question was - why?  Sorry for not being clear.

 

 

I apologize for not understanding.

In general, I personally think that hard work and artistic accomplishment, especially artistic accomplishment that goes above the bare minimum required, and artistic accomplishment that is related to a property I love, is something I should value, even if it is not that important to me.  For example: I don't care for Rand/Mat fanfictions (which are a significant percentage of them).  However, I respect the effort made by the authors who are writing them, appreciate the talent used when they are written well and respectfully, and allow them to open up my perspectives to share the visions of people who are not, well, me.  I still don't think that relationship is there in the books, and I don't use those choices in my fanfiction, but my world is improved by the effort others have made, and I can choose to use parts of their writing to improve my own even if I don't follow that particular ship.  That means something.

Tairan fishers tattoos add richness to the world, and I appreciate the effort put into them and that people actually thought about Tear's lower class as a culture, filling in things I had not before. That's cool.  They cared. That means something to me.

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

I apologize for not understanding.

In general, I personally think that hard work and artistic accomplishment, especially artistic accomplishment that goes above the bare minimum required, and artistic accomplishment that is related to a property I love, is something I should value, even if it is not that important to me.  For example: I don't care for Rand/Mat fanfictions (which are a significant percentage of them).  However, I respect the effort made by the authors who are writing them, appreciate the talent used when they are written well and respectfully, and allow them to open up my perspectives to share the visions of people who are not, well, me.  I still don't think that relationship is there in the books, and I don't use those choices in my fanfiction, but my world is improved by the effort others have made, and I can choose to use parts of their writing to improve my own even if I don't follow that particular ship.  That means something.

Tairan fishers tattoos add richness to the world, and I appreciate the effort put into them and that people actually thought about Tear's lower class as a culture, filling in things I had not before. That's cool.  They cared. That means something to me.

Thank you for the explanation.  Believe I see what you mean.  Doesn't work for me that way, but can appreciate your perspective.