Is the continuing absence of a release date concerning to you?

[king of nowhere]

6 hours ago, Gypsum said:

Rand singlehandedly stopped an entire Trolloc army in A Memory of Light (I think...might have been Towers of Midnight). So the most powerful channeler in the world certainly can stop an army. It's just that most channelers aren't that powerful.

 

yes indeed, but rand was at the time

1) several times stronger than all the women making up the tv !circle (considering nynaeve and egwene are far from top power)

2) possessing all the knowledge of LTT, including some very effective ways to weaponize the power developed during a long war in a more advanced age

3) using an angreal

[WhiteVeils]

2 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

yes indeed, but rand was at the time

1) several times stronger than all the women making up the tv !circle (considering nynaeve and egwene are far from top power)

2) possessing all the knowledge of LTT, including some very effective ways to weaponize the power developed during a long war in a more advanced age

3) using an angreal

 

Him having those things doesn't mean Egwene and Nynaeve's circle is that much less. There weren't nearly as many trollocs between the gap and Fal Dara as there were later in the series in Towers of Midnight.

I know that nothing will be acceptable except the direct translation from EOTW.  But there are reasons they made the change. You can stay mad, or accept that they made this change for good reasons for the show, and they are not necessarily going to make a logical inconsistency within the TV universe regarding it.  As a reader, it makes me celebrate. Dumai's Wells is going to look awesome.

[king of nowhere]

3 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

I know that nothing will be acceptable except the direct translation from EOTW.  But there are reasons they made the change. You can stay mad,

... what? Do I look mad? Don't go mistaking me for a bookcloak just because I want to discuss some of the finer points.

actually, now I got mad. I don't like being mistaken for a bookcloak, for someone who would take an extreme position out of ideological prejudice. And so I am compelled to explain in great detail my problems with that specific scene.

 

It is a general issue of mine with fantasy, having heroes - or people with superpowers in general - being too powerful. then nobody else matters, and the whole setting becomes moot; there are some superpowered people running around doing things, and there's some filler material that doesn't have any real impact on what the superpowered do.

I also worry about consistency; five women alone demolished the biggest trolloc invasion in generations. and yet a dozen aes sedai had problems against the remnants of logain's army.

furthermore, that whole scene is poorly plotted. So, amalisa could always have done that. so why not doing it before the men all go to die? then the trollocs are coming for the city, and she goes out in the open to face them. why? wouldn't it be better to channel at the trollocs from atop the city walls, where you have better protection against a stray arrow? I certainly do hope future fights will have more sensible tactics.

 

this has nothing to do with book consistency. I liked the way they changed the eye of the world; it's a lot better than the ending of the first book. I like tv!padan fain more than the book one. there's lots of stuff the tv show did that I liked better than the books.

Unfortunately, while tv makes good individual fights - seeing lan swing a sword is a lot better than reading a bunch of sword forms on a page - it also has a record of horribly botching large scale combat strategy. and not because they could not do it well, but because movies depicting a large battle consistently sacrifice what makes sense for someone with a bit of knowledge in military matters to favor what looks cool to a casual audience. that scene is just one in a very long list.

 

as for how that bodes to the future of the show, it doesn't tell much; the whole combat scene was heavily influenced by covid restrictions.

[Sabio]

If you look at Star Wars, it took Luke 3 movies before he was powerful, he wasn't able to over power the bad guy in the first movie, they slowly built his powers.  In the final three they had the main character already able to read the bad guys thoughts and beat him in a light saber duel in the first movie.  I hated it because you lose out on a lot of character development.  Rand was only super powerful because he was able to tap into that untainted pool.  After that he went back to not knowing what he was doing for multiple books.  In the series they unleashed Nyn and Egwene as being some super channeler and saving the day way too quickly.  Anything they do now will feel anti climatic and not shocking since IMO they built them up as being all powerful way too quickly.

[expat]

Quote

Rand was only super powerful because he was able to tap into that untainted pool.  After that he went back to not knowing what he was doing for multiple books. 

Why would the untainted pool make Rand super powerful and give him knowledge in using the power?  If this was the case, the Forsaken would have easily crushed Rand prior to the cleansing since they had access to untainted saidin and Rand didn't.

 

The reason for the untainted saidin was never explained and doesn't make a lot of sense.  The only thing that ever-made sense to me was that the taint would overwhelm him the first time he used a lot of saidin at one time and this was a way of acclimating him before being exposed to a large amount of taint.  Doesn't really make sense, but I can't think of any other reason (other than the obvious one that it was a contrived plot point with no rationale).  There were many other ways to achieve the secondary effect of hiding the dragon banner and horn.

 

Quote

several times stronger than all the women making up the tv !circle (considering nynaeve and egwene are far from top power)

Wasn't Rand just as far from his top power when he killed the Trollocs and fought the Forsaken?  He hadn't been trained at all and had just used saidin a couple of times unknowingly before the EOTW.

 

[SinisterDeath]

36 minutes ago, expat said:

Wasn't Rand just as far from his top power when he killed the Trollocs and fought the Forsaken?  He hadn't been trained at all and had just used saidin a couple of times unknowingly before the EOTW.

100%.

 

Book Rand also killed, as far as I can tell a LOT more trollocs in the process, and the "weaves" he used were a lot more insane in complexity.

[MasterAblar]

Rand being able to channel so much thanks to the eye is a pretty clear early bookism. That and the eye being a one of a kind thing + Rand being the Dragon Reborn + Rand being pretty much the strongest taveren ever.

 

Its not supposed to make sense given the established rules of channelling, but at the same time those rules get broken at times, impossible things become possible, so I feel like this is one of those mysteries that are acceptable. 

 

I do worry a little about showcasing such immense power so early, without the precise conditions Rand was given in the book. And there's a lot of stuff Rand pulls in the books where you just go eh, he's the Dragon Reborn, so pass.

Edited November 6, 2022 by MasterAblar

[DojoToad]

20 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Rand being able to channel so much thanks to the eye is a pretty clear early bookism. That and the eye being a one of a kind thing + Rand being the Dragon Reborn + Rand being pretty much the strongest taveren.

 

Its not supposed to make sense given the established rules of channelling, but at the same time those rules get broken at times, impossible things become possible, so I feel like this is one of those mysteries that are acceptable. 

 

I do worry a little about showcasing such immense power so early, without the precise conditions Rand was given in the book. And there's a lot of stuff Rand pulls in the books where you just go eh, he's the Dragon Reborn, so pass.

Agreed. Kind of like turning water into wine. You make allowances for the Christ figure. Not only can they do things others can’t, they can do things that others, including themselves, never thought was possible. 

Edited November 6, 2022 by DojoToad

[Scarloc99]

On 11/3/2022 at 11:16 PM, Mailman said:

Not too concerned with the lack of a release date its when you get stories about recalling actors for reshoots that concern levels should rise.

Again this is not always a bad sign, reshoots happen on pretty much every movie and TV project, it is usually built into the actors contract with potential dates. 

[Scarloc99]

Amazon focuses on its next original series, Jack Ryan season 3 will be the next to be pushed following the push of the recent capaldi series. Rings of Power had very little push until near the release date, we have had the teaser for season 2, trying to remember it felt like rings of power teaser came out a long time before we heard anything else. 

[Cauthonfan4]

On 11/5/2022 at 5:59 PM, WhiteVeils said:

Dumai's Wells is going to look awesome.

you got a guarantee for this? because at this point short of them destroying millions of shaido, i don't know how dumai's well can stack up.

On 11/5/2022 at 5:59 PM, WhiteVeils said:

I know that nothing will be acceptable except the direct translation from EOTW.  But there are reasons they made the change.

actually many of us have already said we didn't expect a 100% direct translation. what we didn't want was what was delivered. you can point out covid and people leaving all you want, but that doesn't excuse what happened BEFORE people didn't come back. But please do keep throwing out "you guys just wanted a 100% direct translation.

[WhiteVeils]

23 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

... what? Do I look mad? Don't go mistaking me for a bookcloak just because I want to discuss some of the finer points.

actually, now I got mad. I don't like being mistaken for a bookcloak, for someone who would take an extreme position out of ideological prejudice. And so I am compelled to explain in great detail my problems with that specific scene.

 

I'm sorry if you really are being open to responses...it didn't seem that you were. Explaining in detail is helpful...it means it can be answered in detail.

 

23 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

It is a general issue of mine with fantasy, having heroes - or people with superpowers in general - being too powerful. then nobody else matters, and the whole setting becomes moot; there are some superpowered people running around doing things, and there's some filler material that doesn't have any real impact on what the superpowered do.

 

This is understood. Of course, this happens in the book too. It's an artifact of how the book was written...originally it was only going to be one volume, then three, and it grew after that.  It's a legit problem...if Rand is super-powerful to start with, then, as you say, no one else matters. To avoid that, they made it so Rand wasn't so obviously super-powerful to start.  

 

23 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

I also worry about consistency; five women alone demolished the biggest trolloc invasion in generations. and yet a dozen aes sedai had problems against the remnants of logain's army.

 

Even regular Aes Sedai couldn't have done what she did alone...they made that clear in the show.  In fact, they made it more clear why....in the books, the Aes Sedai could have done that against any army just by linking and linking had no risk.  The show added a risk to channeling a huge amount of power through linking.  The power is addictive, and many women, including Aes Sedai, can end up not being able to make herself stop drawing on it, burning herself and those in the circle with her out.  

 

23 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

furthermore, that whole scene is poorly plotted. So, amalisa could always have done that. so why not doing it before the men all go to die? then the trollocs are coming for the city, and she goes out in the open to face them. why? wouldn't it be better to channel at the trollocs from atop the city walls, where you have better protection against a stray arrow? I certainly do hope future fights will have more sensible tactics.

 

Amalisa couldn't have always done that.   Her power was not nearly enough.  Another thing the show changed...one of the only other things the show changed explicitly (per Sarah Nakamura, the show consultant), was that women in the show universe can't know how strong a woman is until she sees her channeling.  Until the moment Amalisa linked with Nynaeve and Egwene, she had no idea how much power she could get from women linking to her. She had every reason to expect those two to leave the city anyway....all the non-residents were to leave.  She expected she'd be the strongest one to come.

 

As to why she was there instead of on the battlements?  She was fighting like she was trained like an Aes Sedai. An Aes Sedai has to be put in danger (because of the oaths) in order to strike.  Amelisa likely knew her best chance was to try to summon lighteningbolts to slow the advance and hope for a storm to help it along.  It wasn't perfect....I'm sure the fight wouldn't have been staged exactly like that if it wasn't for Covid.   But it's in the 'I can choose to suspend disbelief and make explanations if I want to.

 

 

Basically, the way they did that 1) Showed the amount of power possible for channelers to do (including Rand, later) 2) Showed exactly why Channelers /don't/ use that kind of power to do that sort of thing and 3) Specifically for Egwene and Nynaeve, created the blocks and reasons why they don't have access to their maximum power levels until late in the series.   So it kind of solves the problem you presented in itself.

 

23 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

 

 

[Mailman]

On 11/6/2022 at 1:57 AM, WhiteVeils said:

Anyone's skill except Amelisa's was completely irrelevant: Egwene (An Aes Sedai with less than a year's training) defeated the Seanchen attack on the white tower with circles of novices.   

Moiraine said she spent many years in the Tower.  She may have been too weak to become Aes Sedai, but she was more than Morgase's level.  They showed she had an affinity to fire with her lighting the lamps.  Amelisa's relative weakness is from strength in the power, not 'trustworthiness'. In fact, making her so weak gives her two bonuses to learning very destructive magics:  1) She's too weak (alone) to actually do much harm or be a threat to an army, so it's safe to teach it to her even if she is going to leave without taking the three oaths. 2) She's more likely to be able to find a way to maximize the output of damage with the minimal amount of power.  Androl is extremely weak in the power, for example, but is very very good at using that tiny amount of power to do gates, which normally would take a lot more power.  Amelisa was, from everything we've seen of her character, desperate to learn how to defend her city with the power.  She would maximize everything she could to learn that.   AND she was essentially a queen in an allied nation in a time when Tar Valon needs allies.  You think they would deny her trying to learn how to fight trollocs with the power and risk pissing her (and her brother) off? 

Rand destroyed an army with no training at all.  Yes, he's the dragon reborn, but lightening is not the most complex weave.  He did it before he even knew he could channel.  All it needs is power.

Androl has a specialty area that he is strong in making him an outlier. There is no indication that Amelisa has any such specialty area.

 

Nothing in the books indicates that the Aes Sedai try and teach those with insufficient power spells that would require said power, especially offensive spells for those that could not progress to full sisterhood and the oaths. In fact the tower seems to be almost overcareful in there teachings if anything. 

 

Your argument that lack of power would lead to greater dexterity has no support.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

An Aes Sedai has to be put in danger (because of the oaths) in order to strike.

Not in order to be able to strike at shadowspawn or proven darkfriends.

[SinisterDeath]

4 hours ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

you got a guarantee for this? because at this point short of them destroying millions of shaido, i don't know how dumai's well can stack up.

Go rewatch the scene.

It was dark.

We see maybe at most, a couple thousand Trollocs charging.

Close up, we only ever see ~10 on screen, with individuals blowing up to chowder.

 

The whole thing was dark, hard to see and you couldn't' really tell what was going on with their weave until you got to the close ups.

 

If/When we get Dumai's well, it very well could be one of the most brutal things we've seen on TV since the Battle of the Bastards.

  

31 minutes ago, Mailman said:

Nothing in the books indicates that the Aes Sedai try and teach those with insufficient power spells that would require said power, especially offensive spells for those that could not progress to full sisterhood and the oaths. In fact the tower seems to be almost overcareful in there teachings if anything. 

We also almost never see the Aes Sedai teach the novice/accepted dangerous weaves. Does that mean they never teach anyone dangerous weaves?

 

  

20 minutes ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Not in order to be able to strike at shadowspawn or proven darkfriends.

This is true.

Short of COVID, I don't know what their plan was with any of their tactics.

The only reason I can possibly think they'd have the girls out in a field, is because that weave they used, lets call it Chain Lightning, is indiscriminate, and needed a big open field where the tallest thing around would be charging Trollocs.

And honestly, her using that specific weave, is no more of a plot hole than Book Rand rippling reality and causing the earth to boil beneath Trollocs hooves as he explodes them into goop.

 

  

4 hours ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

actually many of us have already said we didn't expect a 100% direct translation. what we didn't want was what was delivered. you can point out covid and people leaving all you want, but that doesn't excuse what happened BEFORE people didn't come back. But please do keep throwing out "you guys just wanted a 100% direct translation.

What % of the Adaptation should be a direct translation? 90%?, 80%?, 50%?

[expat]

Quote

 

Quote

Nothing in the books indicates that the Aes Sedai try and teach those with insufficient power spells that would require said power, especially offensive spells for those that could not progress to full sisterhood and the oaths. In fact the tower seems to be almost overcareful in there teachings if anything. 

Accepted in the book are free to study what they want.  There is nothing in the book to say that this "free study" couldn't be offensive spells, especially for someone who lives just outside the blight.  

 

There are two ways of looking at things when the books are ambiguous on a topic:

 

(1) you can either give the show runners the benefit of the doubt when they choose how to express it in the show; or

(2) you can forbid the show runner from expressing the topic since the books don't explicitly allow the interpretation.   

 

In an adaptation, the first choice seems more logical to me.

[Mailman]

6 hours ago, expat said:

Accepted in the book are free to study what they want.  There is nothing in the book to say that this "free study" couldn't be offensive spells, especially for someone who lives just outside the blight.  

 

There are two ways of looking at things when the books are ambiguous on a topic:

 

(1) you can either give the show runners the benefit of the doubt when they choose how to express it in the show; or

(2) you can forbid the show runner from expressing the topic since the books don't explicitly allow the interpretation.   

 

In an adaptation, the first choice seems more logical to me.

While they were free to study what they wanted judging from the level of control still exercised over their lives I cannot see anything less than a severe penance being dispensed for an accepted calling down lightning inside the tower grounds without supervision. It is therefore not a stretch to be of the belief that no Aes Sedai would be willing to teach an accepted that is not going to be capable of reaching sisterhood, and therefore will not be bound by the oath's, dangerous offensive spells.

 

Yes an adaption can change things and they certainly did that to the point of butchering IMO. But things should still make sense and when you have a society that goes to the trouble of actually using a magical binding to prevent dangerous use of the power except in certain specific circumstances it makes little sense to teach someone those uses of the power when they are going to be unable to progress to the level of binding.

[Scarloc99]

The rules of magic in the tv show will not match the books, they can't, and, it doesn't really matter if they do as long as some key facts are kept. 

The 2 halves are different
Men go mad because of the taint (meaning it is something Rand can cure) 
Women can form a circle 
Men can only form a circle with women 
Drawing too much power can kill you

Anything else really doesn't matter for the TV show because every additional rule you add in then needs to be explained to the audience when they ask "but why". What do the audience care about how or when Aes Sedai learn certain weaves (spells), why waste TV time explaining how teaching of the one power works, we all agree there is not enough of it anyway, but also there is a known fact that if you are explaining the rules of a world in a TV show you need to do it more then once, so every rule you decide to keep means 2-3 scenes re explaining that rule in order to make sure the Audience understand it. 

So no, it really does not matter at all if the rules of magic, outside of those very key rules, are tweaked. It was a cool TV moment. Who really cares that "well in the books she would not know how to use that weave because no one taught her". Just accept that, in a moment of needing to be the hero she found abilities she didn't know she had and the power of those she was linked to helped her do things she had only ever dreamed of. 

But also, she lives on the border, who is to say that at some point in the past she has not seen an Aes Sedai use a similar weave to kill trollocs and remembered it even though she did not have the power herself to cast it. 

[Mailman]

6 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

  

We also almost never see the Aes Sedai teach the novice/accepted dangerous weaves. Does that mean they never teach anyone dangerous weaves?

 

  

This is true.

Short of COVID, I don't know what their plan was with any of their tactics.

The only reason I can possibly think they'd have the girls out in a field, is because that weave they used, lets call it Chain Lightning, is indiscriminate, and needed a big open field where the tallest thing around would be charging Trollocs.

And honestly, her using that specific weave, is no more of a plot hole than Book Rand rippling reality and causing the earth to boil beneath Trollocs hooves as he explodes them into goop.
 

Clearly not we have the Green Ajah who I would expect to train those and practice destructive weaves but that would be with those close to full sisterhood and not to those who are not going to be sisters at all. I don't believe that novices would have been taught anything in the way of dangerous weaves. 

 

I can't believe that anyone would have taught Amelisa Chain Lightning. Covid may have been an issue, but you must be responsible for the finished product you deliver, better to have delayed than serve up the dog's breakfast we got.

 

Moiraine has been rendered almost obsolete with the power levels displayed she could not handle approx 200 trollocs and a couple of fades while 4 weak channelers and Nynaeve killed 50 times that number destroying them entirely.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Mailman

[Scarloc99]

4 minutes ago, Mailman said:

Clearly not we have the Green Ajah who I would expect to train those and practice destructive weaves but that would be with those close to full sisterhood and not to those who are not going to be sisters at all. I don't believe that novices would have been taught anything in the way of dangerous weaves. 

 

I can't believe that anyone would have taught Amelisa Chain Lightning. Covid may have been an issue, but you must be responsible for the finished product you deliver, better to have delayed than serve up the dog's breakfast we got.

 

What does it matter why do we need to see it? But ok, at some point in the past an Aes Sedai came to help out in a skirmish against the Trollocs, and showed her the weave lol. 

People get all het up about the strangest things here, why waste even a minute of screen time explaining something that the majority of the audience wont care about (and I include most book readers there). we only have 64 hours to tell this story, lets not waste precious minutes explaining things that really don't matter in terms of telling the tale of how the main characters end up at the final battle. 

[expat]

Quote

While they were free to study what they wanted judging from the level of control still exercised over their lives I cannot see anything less than a severe penance being dispensed for an accepted calling down lightning inside the tower grounds without supervision. It is therefore not a stretch to be of the belief that no Aes Sedai would be willing to teach an accepted that is not going to be capable of reaching sisterhood, and therefore will not be bound by the oath's, dangerous offensive spells

This comes across as "I hate the show, so I'm going to take the worst interpretation of every scene, even when the books don't demand that interpretation".  Can't you see all the assumptions you have to make to reach your conclusion?  How is it even possible that someone could be in the Tower for several years as an Accepted and never see/learn any weave that could be used offensively?  In the show it was lightning, but it could have any of a number of other spells.  Would a fireball have worked better for you since we saw Amelisa light candles earlier, so we know she can create fire?

Quote

Moiraine has been rendered almost obsolete with the power levels displayed she could not handle approx 200 trollocs and a couple of fades while 4 weak channelers and Nynaeve killed 50 times that number destroying them entirely.

Moiraine didn't die (or burnt out) when facing the trollocs. 3 of the 5 in the circle died and the other two serious injured.  

[SinisterDeath]

6 hours ago, Mailman said:

Moiraine has been rendered almost obsolete with the power levels displayed she could not handle approx 200 trollocs and a couple of fades while 4 weak channelers and Nynaeve killed 50 times that number destroying them entirely.

The official Power ranking chart, puts Nynaeve's "Initial" power at #4 (potential of #3) and Moiraine (before Finland), at #13. Eggs is at #8.

On a linear scale, that makes Nynaeve 3x as powerful as Moiraine. If we use the scale used for Aging, she's 120% more powerful. (Another way of saying she's 20% more powerful than Moiraine.. which doesn't seem right?)

I haven't really seen any reference in the books that compares how much of the OP you can hold, to muscle training.
E.g. You have to train your body to be able to lift more weight/hold more power. 
We know there is mental training that helps with their endurance when actively weaving/using the OP, but that's slightly different then holding onto the most amount of power as possible and someone else weaving it for you.

I don't know if Book Nyn/Eggs had been introduced to linking earlier, would and experienced Channeler have been able to have them tap into the maximum they could hold?

 

6 hours ago, Mailman said:

I can't believe that anyone would have taught Amelisa Chain Lightning. Covid may have been an issue, but you must be responsible for the finished product you deliver, better to have delayed than serve up the dog's breakfast we got.

From the books, it's definitely a leap to think they'd teach someone such a dangerous weave like that... Or that they'd even have seen it in use.

 

Also, from the books we have channelers creating weaves they were never trained to make in the first place. So who knows?

 

 

[expat]

Quote

I haven't really seen any reference in the books that compares how much of the OP you can hold, to muscle training.
E.g. You have to train your body to be able to lift more weight/hold more power. 
We know there is mental training that helps with their endurance when actively weaving/using the OP, but that's slightly different then holding onto the most amount of power as possible and someone else weaving it for you.

This was my rationale for the scene.  Some may say that it is making excuses for RJ, but since it doesn't conflict with the (ambiguous) source material, there is no reason to nitpick it to death.

[MasterAblar]

Honestly they should have just had Amalisa first throw weaker lightning, that was insufficient to actually stop the trollocs, and then in desperation to save her city, intentionnally pull far more than she can safely handle and boom big lightning and so on.

[A Memory Of Why]

My problem with the circle lightning scene is the similarities to Rand finishing the Seanchan campaign.

 

Even if they were the strongest AS ever to have evered, it doesn't equal Calandor in the hands of the Dragon Reborn.

 

If they keep this scene they really need to show how much more powerful Rand is in that moment and ensure it has that shock and awe flavour.

 

What I'm saying is, it really needs to overshadow that scene with the girls which can be difficult for a visual medium.

Edited November 7, 2022 by A Memory Of Why