Who made the better grade? WOT or ROP

[templar7]

In Casting and final overall quality, who comes out as the winners?

I'm WOT on both fronts..

Make your vote.

[wotfan4472]

Same with me.

 

[Scarloc99]

I mean casting they were about even, the actors in both shows are equally as good and fit the roles, Elrond and Durin where great castings, Sauron was weaker but I think that is more down to the “who is it”

aspect that was just badly done then the actor (I so preferd the theory he was a Ringwraith). 

Both shows have problems, neither was a perfect adaptation but I think we have to all see that ROP was better then WOT in a number of ways, although there are clear reasons for this. 
 

Script and Dialogue - Both series had clunky moments, Galadrial had some really bad lines to say and some of the lines the cast in WOT had to deliver where also just bad, but, ROP gets it for a couple of reasons, the scenes between Elrond, Durin and Durins family, the half foot scenes and anything with Adar in it (although the character looks amazingly similar to Data). I can’t think of a single moment in WOT that was on a similar level to those scenes in ROP in terms of dialogue and delivery. 
 

Physical effects - Take the Orcs in ROP and the Trollocs in WOT and there is no comparison between the 2 the Trollocs looked just fake at times, the Orcs looked amazing. 
 

Sets - ROP and WOT were similar in terms of sets (physical and CGI) but ROP was slightly better, as illogical as it was the explosion of mount doom looked good and Numenor looked amazing. Magic in both shows was about on par in terms of how it was displayed. 
 

But ROP had a far far bigger budget and this was all evident on screen and made for a better overall show. It had better script, better effects and felt just bigger. WOT felt more like the Shanara chronicles although it was not as bad as that show. WOT also has to contend with Covid restrictions to filming. 
 

 

Edited December 26, 2022 by Sir_Charrid

[DojoToad]

6 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I mean casting they were about even, the actors in both shows are equally as good and fit the roles, Elrond and Durin where great castings, Sauron was weaker but I think that is more down to the “who is it”

aspect that was just badly done then the actor (I so preferd the theory he was a Ringwraith). 

Both shows have problems, neither was a perfect adaptation but I think we have to all see that ROP was better then WOT in a number of ways, although there are clear reasons for this. 
 

Script and Dialogue - Both series had clunky moments, Galadrial had some really bad lines to say and some of the lines the cast in WOT had to deliver where also just bad, but, ROP gets it for a couple of reasons, the scenes between Elrond, Durin and Durins family, the half foot scenes and anything with Adar in it (although the character looks amazingly similar to Data). I can’t think of a single moment in WOT that was on a similar level to those scenes in ROP in terms of dialogue and delivery. 
 

Physical effects - Take the Orcs in ROP and the Trollocs in WOT and there is no comparison between the 2 the Trollocs looked just fake at times, the Orcs looked amazing. 
 

Sets - ROP and WOT were similar in terms of sets (physical and CGI) but ROP was slightly better, as illogical as it was the explosion of mount doom looked good and Numenor looked amazing. Magic in both shows was about on par in terms of how it was displayed. 
 

But ROP had a far far bigger budget and this was all evident on screen and made for a better overall show. It had better script, better effects and felt just bigger. WOT felt more like the Shanara chronicles although it was not as bad as that show. WOT also has to contend with Covid restrictions to filming. 
 

 

All good points - especially orcs versus trollocs.  RoP was way better for me.  Bigger budget definitely impacted in many ways.  But I still think the largest impact was the world - I only have a passing familiarity with Middle Earth and the characters for RoP.  Much easier to go with the show runner's interpretation where my mind is less sure.

 

But to the OP's questions:

 

1 - I liked casting better in RoP.  Especially humans and dwarves.  Elves good as well - they just didn't look different enough from the humans other than pointy ears - but I think that could have been fixed with post production and/or make-up, not so much a casting thing.  WoT often just seemed like they settled for 'good enough' with casting.  I did really like the choices for Mat, Lan, and Thom but Mat is gone, Thom won't be in S2, and that just leaves Lan...

 

2 - RoP way better S1 - I watched and enjoyed it all the way through.  It wasn't all gold, but very much liked the reveals in the final episode.  Women given scenes of power, influence, and heroism without it feeling like men were getting short-changed.  WoT wasn't good enough to get me to the final episode.  If I hadn't been such a fan of the books I wouldn't have made it to episode 4.  Budget again had something to do with it, but how the budget was used tells more.  Rafe bragged about building an entire village and burning it down after one episode.  Not the flex he thinks it was...

[Guire]

I thought casting was roughly even.  I didnt dislike any WoT cast. I disliked multiple RoP castings but others excellent to me. Disa, Durin, and Adar in particular were great.

 

From an enjoyment of the show perspective. The writing and mystery box crap in RoP took everything I disliked about WoT and ramped it up to 11.  RoP had every single advantage possible and couldn't get out of its own way. I have actually reevaluated how I feel about Rafe after RoP. Not sure what happens behind the scenes on these large IPs at Amazon.  Boys, Expanse, a few other smaller shows are amazing.  RoP and WoT seem like wasted opportunity.

[Gypsum]

They both could have done better.

 

The writing and editing was weak on both shows. CGI and special effects are cool, but you need the writing, editing, and direction to make your story breathe. Writing fantasy without clunky dialogue is difficult. I get it. You don't want characters to sound too modern and "of our world," but you don't want them to sound too weird and stilted, like Shakespeare meets Spock. Nonetheless, both Tolkien and Jordan wrote dialogue that fit their worlds. Why is it so hard to find screenwriters who can do it? (Why does a ship float and a stone sink?? The laws of f&)&8king physics!...It's not even a good metaphor! Who came up with that?)

 

ROP, however, had slightly stronger writing and acting. Slightly. I made some kind of connection with the non-canon characters and got sucked into their drama. With WOT, the characterizations were flaccid. A show like Good Omens can bring characters to life in six episodes, explaining how the world will end in the process. WOT could have done it in eight. If you did not already care about these people because you'd read the books, you would not care about these people. 

 

Both were overly reliant on the 'mystery box' model of plotting. There are other and arguably better ways to get people invested into your characters and your story. It feels like a cheap and lazy way to keep your audience watching.

 

Both made some very strange plot decisions that broke my suspension of disbelief. For example, in WOT, it was a group of wilders channeling enough of the One Power to take out a whole army. If it's that easy, then why bother with the many actual battles that you see in the next 13 books?

 

In ROP, it was when everyone walked away from a pyroclastic flow. Elf or human, you would be extremely dead if that hit you.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2022 by Gypsum

[Guire]

9 hours ago, Gypsum said:

They both could have done better.

 

The writing and editing was weak on both shows. CGI and special effects are cool, but you need the writing, editing, and direction to make your story breathe. Writing fantasy without clunky dialogue is difficult. I get it. You don't want characters to sound too modern and "of our world," but you don't want them to sound too weird and stilted, like Shakespeare meets Spock. Nonetheless, both Tolkien and Jordan wrote dialogue that fit their worlds. Why is it so hard to find screenwriters who can do it? (Why does a ship float and a stone sink?? The laws of f&)&8king physics!...It's not even a good metaphor! Who came up with that?)

 

ROP, however, had slightly stronger writing and acting. Slightly. I made some kind of connection with the non-canon characters and got sucked into their drama. With WOT, the characterizations were flaccid. A show like Good Omens can bring characters to life in six episodes, explaining how the world will end in the process. WOT could have done it in eight. If you did not already care about these people because you'd read the books, you would not care about these people. 

 

Both were overly reliant on the 'mystery box' model of plotting. There are other and arguably better ways to get people invested into your characters and your story. It feels like a cheap and lazy way to keep your audience watching.

 

Both made some very strange plot decisions that broke my suspension of disbelief. For example, in WOT, it was a group of wilders channeling enough of the One Power to take out a whole army. If it's that easy, then why bother with the many actual battles that you see in the next 13 books?

 

In ROP, it was when everyone walked away from a pyroclastic flow. Elf or human, you would be extremely dead if that hit you.

 

 

 

 

RoP killed me for a bunch of reasons that are mostly personal to me. It was beautiful but I am a map guy, ex military, work in emergency medicine, have observed good and bad leadership in deadly situations, and hate bringing real world politics into my fantasy escapism.  But my family loves LoTR so much I had to slog through it.

[SinisterDeath]

2 hours ago, Guire said:

I am a map guy, ex military, work in emergency medicine, have observed good and bad leadership in deadly situations, and hate bringing real world politics into my fantasy escapism.

Reading this, I kinda want to see your reaction to the show "La Brea", cause holy crap do they suck at everything you described.

[Guire]

1 minute ago, SinisterDeath said:

Reading this, I kinda want to see your reaction to the show "La Brea", cause holy crap do they suck at everything you described.

I am avoiding anything else like that for mental health reasons.  WoT and LoTR movies have basically gotten me through last 30 years.  I am probably gonna chew my tongue out for WoT and keep moving though the columns.  Done with RoP.

[mogi68]

I liked WoT better even though it made me rage out with all the changes.

 

Somehow it was more faithful to the lore than Rings of Power, which is like nails on chalkboard after reading LOTR/The Silmarillion/Unfinished Tales/Children of Hurin/Fall of Gondolin 

Edited December 28, 2022 by mogi68

[SinisterDeath]

2 hours ago, Guire said:

I am avoiding anything else like that for mental health reasons.  WoT and LoTR movies have basically gotten me through last 30 years.  I am probably gonna chew my tongue out for WoT and keep moving though the columns.  Done with RoP.

I've watched 2 seasons of that show, and I derive some level of joy "shouting" at the screen "What the hell are you doing!?".

Imagine for instance, watching an obviously scripted version of survivorman or man vs wild, except it's written by someone that's never read a survival book (not even Hatchet), but they've totally gone camping in their back yard once when they were 8.

[Chivalry]

7 hours ago, Guire said:

I am avoiding anything else like that for mental health reasons.  WoT and LoTR movies have basically gotten me through last 30 years.  I am probably gonna chew my tongue out for WoT and keep moving though the columns.  Done with RoP.

 

That is quite the reference.

[Scarloc99]

23 hours ago, Gypsum said:

They both could have done better.

 

The writing and editing was weak on both shows. CGI and special effects are cool, but you need the writing, editing, and direction to make your story breathe. Writing fantasy without clunky dialogue is difficult. I get it. You don't want characters to sound too modern and "of our world," but you don't want them to sound too weird and stilted, like Shakespeare meets Spock. Nonetheless, both Tolkien and Jordan wrote dialogue that fit their worlds. Why is it so hard to find screenwriters who can do it? (Why does a ship float and a stone sink?? The laws of f&)&8king physics!...It's not even a good metaphor! Who came up with that?)

 

ROP, however, had slightly stronger writing and acting. Slightly. I made some kind of connection with the non-canon characters and got sucked into their drama. With WOT, the characterizations were flaccid. A show like Good Omens can bring characters to life in six episodes, explaining how the world will end in the process. WOT could have done it in eight. If you did not already care about these people because you'd read the books, you would not care about these people. 

 

Both were overly reliant on the 'mystery box' model of plotting. There are other and arguably better ways to get people invested into your characters and your story. It feels like a cheap and lazy way to keep your audience watching.

 

Both made some very strange plot decisions that broke my suspension of disbelief. For example, in WOT, it was a group of wilders channeling enough of the One Power to take out a whole army. If it's that easy, then why bother with the many actual battles that you see in the next 13 books?

 

In ROP, it was when everyone walked away from a pyroclastic flow. Elf or human, you would be extremely dead if that hit you.

 

 

 

 

I have to say the Pyroclastic flow (and the bit that led up to it, I am pretty sure all that water was running up hill towards the mountain), and the fact that Sauron was on the raft and Galadrial saved him are the 2 things that made me go, wait , what, oh and Mithril, the origin story for that. The time compression frustrates me but I understand it (although I would have had Isildurs Grandfather be in the role of Elendil, Elendil be much younger and Isildur a young boy). 
 

But like you I got emotionally invested in some of the relationships. The scenes between Elrond and Durin, the Half foots and anything with Adar in it. 
 

As you say there was no emotional investment in the WOT characters we didn’t have any moments between characters that made me go, that was great, it wasn’t awful but it also wasn’t great but, I put that on the script and not the actors. 

[WhiteVeils]

I thought there were some really good moments between the characters.  Mat and Perrin in Shadar Logoth, and Rand and Mat on the balcony in Tar Valon stood out for me.

[Pandemonium]

Rings of Power was the better show in so many more ways.  Rings of Power really focused on the main character arcs and thus was more memorable.  Wheel of time focused way too much on minor characters and didn't develop their main characters enough.  

 

Some of character developments in wheel of time happened so fast that the audience doesn't get enough time to really know them.  And the last episode was very poor and had developments that didn't make sense or veered way too far from the books.

 

The whole Loial getting stabbed by Fains dagger is just horrible horrible.  And the healing of the near dead.... Just horrible plot decisions, I can't believe episode 8 was that bad.  They have so much work to do in season 2 to get this show back on track.

 

Rings of Power was much more concise and easy to. understand what was going on.  wheel of time was much more haphazardly thrown together and the plot didn't really bounce together the way Rings of Power did

 

[VooDooNut]

Yep, Rings of Power was a show.

[CaddySedai]

So... WoT was better.

 

Even though RJ rolled in his grave because of its changes...

 

Tolkien came back to life just to step in front of a bus over the changes to his.

 

P.S. Even though suicide was used as a joke in this post it is no laughing matter. If you or anyone you know expresses suicidal thoughts, help is available. In the US one can reach out to the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline at 988 via SMS. Other countries have similar services so I implore you to check here https://support.google.com/websearch/answer/11181469

Edited December 29, 2022 by CaddySedai
added link to help sites.

[SinisterDeath]

21 minutes ago, CaddySedai said:

Even though RJ rolled in his grave because of its changes...

Hard Disagree on that, if only because the man was ecstatic about having the writers that wrote NBC's Merlin (1998), write the script for Eye of the World.

As for Tolkien, he'd likely do the same over the Peter Jackson Trilogy. 

[CaddySedai]

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

Hard Disagree on that, if only because the man was ecstatic about having the writers that wrote NBC's Merlin (1998), write the script for Eye of the World.

As for Tolkien, he'd likely do the same over the Peter Jackson Trilogy. 

 

Ahem, Merlin was awesome for what it was 😛

 

And he probably would. That said the Jackson Trilogy did what it needed to - make an adaptation that the masses would actually turn out for.

 

As a Trekkie I have deep deep reservations about the Abrams movies in the Kelvin Timeline. But it brought Star Trek essentially back from the grave. So I appreciate it for that. 

 

But also mothers milk in a cup the Kelvin Timeline.

[Scarloc99]

3 hours ago, CaddySedai said:

So... WoT was better.

 

Even though RJ rolled in his grave because of its changes...

 

Tolkien came back to life just to step in front of a bus over the changes to his.

 

P.S. Even though suicide was used as a joke in this post it is no laughing matter. If you or anyone you know expresses suicidal thoughts, help is available. In the US one can reach out to the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline at 988 via SMS. Other countries have similar services so I implore you to check here https://support.google.com/websearch/answer/11181469

https://www.tolkiensociety.org/blog/2022/08/does-it-matter-what-tolkien-would-have-thought-of-the-rings-of-power/
 

I find that an interesting read. A friend of mine is fairly certain Tolkien would have been ok with the adaptation. He accepted that vast changes would be needed for the medium of the screen or movie, and, always intended large parts of his work to be akin to fables, open to interpretation and change dependent on the “editor and voice” 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Sir_Charrid

[Scarloc99]

3 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Hard Disagree on that, if only because the man was ecstatic about having the writers that wrote NBC's Merlin (1998), write the script for Eye of the World.

As for Tolkien, he'd likely do the same over the Peter Jackson Trilogy. 

People seem to put Tolkien on some sort of pedestal when he was quite open about taking cash over art when he sold the rights for 2 million. He also has stated in previous letters and documents that he had varying views on how much his work should be adapted. 
 

In creating the Simarillion Christopher Tolkien locked the lore down in a way his father never really intended. JRR always intended that book to be a series of fables and poems intended to be open to interpretation, creating a canvas upon which other writers to fill in the vast spaces he had left.

 

He accepted that the vastness of his myth would require adaptation, he goes back and forth at various points over his feelings on that, but, does indicate that ultimately he is willing to take the cash over the art and his right to have control over what is created.
 

I think there is this sense that his work is unchangeable when, as a friend of mine who has studied Tolkien far far more then me (did his PHD on him and got access to a lot of his writings and notes for that), said. “Tolkien would be amazed that this story he wrote is still being read and considered in the same voice as Beourwolf and the other great fables he loved, if the story has needed to be changed to fit a medium he didn’t even know existed he would be ok with that, because it is just a new way of telling his own fable, and, as with all fables, the telling changes over the vast expanse of time. 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Sir_Charrid

[Scarloc99]

2 hours ago, CaddySedai said:

 

Ahem, Merlin was awesome for what it was 😛

 

And he probably would. That said the Jackson Trilogy did what it needed to - make an adaptation that the masses would actually turn out for.

 

As a Trekkie I have deep deep reservations about the Abrams movies in the Kelvin Timeline. But it brought Star Trek essentially back from the grave. So I appreciate it for that. 

 

But also mothers milk in a cup the Kelvin Timeline.

I mean, as long as you ignore the lens flair I did love the first of the Abrams trek films, but I was never a massive original Star Trek fan (I came in on next gen and then voyager and DS9). The second film was fun, but I would have preferred a more original story, and the insistence “Cumberbatch isn’t Kahn, no really he isn’t Kahn”, in all the promo stuff leading up to it when we all knew it was just felt cheap. The third, let’s not worry about lol. But then JJ has a habit of making awful 3rd movies to trilogies, even if he only produced into darkness, I mean I am still waiting to see who Rey’s parents really are ;). 

[DojoToad]

5 hours ago, CaddySedai said:

 

Ahem, Merlin was awesome for what it was 😛

 

Whatever it was, I couldn’t watch it - no matter how desperate I was for any kind fantasy entertainment. Tried it at two different times and just couldn’t get into it. 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

5 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

In creating the Simarillion Christopher Tolkien locked the lore down in a way his father never really intended.

Among the objections are that ROP is ignoring the tale of years in the appendix to LoTR - it does not relate to the Simarillion other than a brief reference at the start.

[Scarloc99]

4 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Among the objections are that ROP is ignoring the tale of years in the appendix to LoTR - it does not relate to the Simarillion other than a brief reference at the start.

I mean that issue bothered me, but, you can’t really tell a narriative spanning thousands of years and make it clear to the audience what is happening. The timeline needs to be condensed, if all my issues that is one I can live with, barely. Although Mithril being discovered and wonders created and then bang Balrog all in the blink of an eye bothers me, you could have easily had Mithril as a thing that had been around already, or Isildur a baby, Elendil in the Isildur role and hos grandfather in the Elendil role. Just stretching out an extra generation so the rings were not forged while a Isildur was alive. 
 

But as per a post I did a while back it shows that adapting large fantasy series into the 8 episode format is really hard. 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Sir_Charrid