What has GOT got that WoT's not?

[WhiteVeils]

On 8/22/2022 at 5:07 PM, AdamA said:

It's not the color palette that makes it look more realistic. It's details. A set doesn't look like it was built yesterday. It has clear imperfections. Chunks missing. Stains. People who have been on the road for a week have dirty faces, unkempt hair, they don't look like they're wearing makeup. Clothing has stains and rips like people actually wear it on a regular basis. Not universally, but in an appropriate manner. The court at a formal event looks made up and perfect. Commoners on the street or travelers do not. The damn dragons look individually unique and have understandable facial expressions. Look at Daemon petting Caraxes before they leave. The spit coming off the dragon moves in exactly the same direction as Matt Smith's hair from the resulting wind. The artists pay attention to everything.

 

I don't think the color on its own is a strength by any means, but it's worth noting why they're different. Westeros in this era is supposed to be a fairly brutish, barely-civilized place, the rough equivalent of Brittania or Gaul shortly after the fall of Rome. Wheel of Time is far closer to contemporary, barely pre-industrial showing us the invention of cannons and steam engines, something roughly Georgian or Regency era when clothing and architecture were far more ornate. It's like comparing Vikings to a Jane Austen movie. King's Landing at this point is a barely century-old city that started out as a few wood posts stacked up around some tents in the mud. Everything grand is a remnant of the Age of Heroes that no one remembers how to build.

But WOT has all these details.  The clothing has rips and frays based on how real clothing works. Hair is kept or unkempt based on how long it has been since that person had access to a hairbrush and what kind of terrain they're moving through. Dirt levels are carefully regulated and vary depending on whether they are staying in an in or sleeping under a bush.  The Whitecloaks stains vary depending on when they're in camp or on the road.  The sets have been carefully set up.  The sets we've seen are perfectly normal and appropriate to the setting culture and time-period being addressed.  
But those are not western European sets.  Tar Valon looks beautiful...but it was built by Ogier to look beautiful and it has lasted centuries as such.  Same with Shadar Logoth...same architects.  Many of those buildings were built near the Age of Legends, and not by Humans. Humans did build Fal Dara...and it looks like a street scene in Egypt or Morocco, but with more Japanese-style costumes on the people.  Two Rivers looks like a mountain village, but not a European one.  
There are more details.  You can go through the Hall of the Sitters and tell which countries the sitters come from with their costumes.  Mat's clothes visibly darken, as with his makeup, as he grows more corrupt.  They definitely paid attention and did it all intentionally.

But they didn't do it as we /expected/.  So we are so shocked by the difference from what we expect we don't look for the tiny details and assume they aren't there.  It takes a rewatch to see them.
Anyway my two cents.

[Skipp]

6 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

But WOT has all these details.  The clothing has rips and frays based on how real clothing works. Hair is kept or unkempt based on how long it has been since that person had access to a hairbrush and what kind of terrain they're moving through. Dirt levels are carefully regulated and vary depending on whether they are staying in an in or sleeping under a bush.  The Whitecloaks stains vary depending on when they're in camp or on the road.  The sets have been carefully set up.  The sets we've seen are perfectly normal and appropriate to the setting culture and time-period being addressed.  
But those are not western European sets.  Tar Valon looks beautiful...but it was built by Ogier to look beautiful and it has lasted centuries as such.  Same with Shadar Logoth...same architects.  Many of those buildings were built near the Age of Legends, and not by Humans. Humans did build Fal Dara...and it looks like a street scene in Egypt or Morocco, but with more Japanese-style costumes on the people.  Two Rivers looks like a mountain village, but not a European one.  
There are more details.  You can go through the Hall of the Sitters and tell which countries the sitters come from with their costumes.  Mat's clothes visibly darken, as with his makeup, as he grows more corrupt.  They definitely paid attention and did it all intentionally.

But they didn't do it as we /expected/.  So we are so shocked by the difference from what we expect we don't look for the tiny details and assume they aren't there.  It takes a rewatch to see them.
Anyway my two cents.

 

Agreed on all points.  Take Rand's coat for example, it is well made but almost certainly made by him or his father.  The dye job is haphazard, its uneven, it spills onto the wool.  Compare it to Egwene's or Nynaeve's coats which are immaculate.  Rand's blue shirt has cleary been darned and repaired at several places.

 

But on another lvl people don't like to be dirty generally.  Even while traveling you would find the time to wash your clothes occasionally.

[Cauthonfan4]

On 8/22/2022 at 10:48 PM, DojoToad said:

mostly because I'm hating GRRM for not having finished the original series and being constantly distracted by 'side' projects

As angry as I am about this, nothing compares to the utter hatred I have of Patrick rothfuss.

[DojoToad]

2 hours ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

As angry as I am about this, nothing compares to the utter hatred I have of Patrick rothfuss.

It’s enough to make you not buy an unfinished series again, eh?

[BookMattBetterThanShow]

Watch the first two episodes of House of the Dragon and the look and feel is so much better than what WOT put out there it is not even close. I know they spend more money, but I think WOT/Amzon could learn somethings about what is needed to improve WOT.

[WhiteVeils]

And yet HOD doesn't even have proper foundational garments in their costumes, making them all droop in the bustline and fit poorly despite belonging to the very richest of the rich.  I've already seen the costume designer types complaining about how cheap they look.  Obviously not everyone has the same taste or issues.

 

Every show is going to have a different aesthetic.  That's intentional. WOT wasn't supposed to look like GOT.  They can learn from each other, it's definitely true.  And each viewer can have their own preference of one over another.  Best to let them be themselves, I guess.

[Elder_Haman]

3 hours ago, BookMattBetterThanShow said:

Watch the first two episodes of House of the Dragon and the look and feel is so much better than what WOT put out there it is not even close. I know they spend more money, but I think WOT/Amzon could learn somethings about what is needed to improve WOT.

Really? It felt very similar to me. 

[ForsakenPotato]

I think HoD has a more cohesive look and feel in the costuming and sets compared to WoT, but I think it's partly because it's a show focused on a relatively small number of places and characters (most of whom are royal and related to each other). At least Moiraine's wig looks realer than all the Targaryen's!

[WhiteVeils]

It's clear in WOT they're trying to hint that it's a Future post apocalyptic Earth, so in some ways it needs to be even more creative...have that hint of modernity with their medieval.  Also, most of the people we've seen (save Suian in full regalia) are not the elites that GOT focus on. Those  'peasants' are the primary cast, and need to be distinct. GOT doesn't have many middle class folks.

[DojoToad]

15 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

It's clear in WOT they're trying to hint that it's a Future post apocalyptic Earth, so in some ways it needs to be even more creative...have that hint of modernity with their medieval.  Also, most of the people we've seen (save Suian in full regalia) are not the elites that GOT focus on. Those  'peasants' are the primary cast, and need to be distinct. GOT doesn't have many middle class folks.

I'm not sure I understand.  Do you mean references to Sho-wings, Jo-cars, shocklances, and a Mercedes hood ornament/emblem in a museum are not enough for a TV audience?

Edited September 22, 2022 by DojoToad

[SinisterDeath]

22 hours ago, DojoToad said:

I'm not sure I understand.  Do you mean references to Sho-wings, Jo-cars, shocklances, and a Mercedes hood ornament/emblem in a museum are not enough for a TV audience?

In the show (not the book), before we got a view of the past we see people mining what appears to be old-buildings for metal.

Thing with audiences are... sometimes you have to treat them like a nail while you swing a giant mallet to get their attention. Tiny details like a Mercedes hood element are for those of us with an eye for small detail.
In your face, blatantly obvious, and basically yelling at you "DUH" is for everyone else.

[DojoToad]

Just now, SinisterDeath said:

In the show (not the book), before we got a view of the past we see people mining what appears to be old-buildings for metal.

Thing with audiences are... sometimes you have to treat them like a nail while you swing a giant mallet to get their attention. Tiny details like a Mercedes hood element are for those of us with an eye for small detail.
In your face, blatantly obvious, and basically yelling at you "DUH" is for everyone else.

Right, figured we were talking show.  Guess I see your point though.

[WhiteVeils]

That and....the show needs costumes anyway. Every single detail of those costumes is another tool to tell the story of the show. This is true for every show if you know what to look for. Each bit of set and costume and prop had someone sit down and think about how to make it look.  This is definitely true for WOT.  Making the costumes hint at a post-apocalyptic world is just one more nugget that advances the storytelling...even as just an easter egg that you absorb and appreciate afterwards.

[SinisterDeath]

12 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

That and....the show needs costumes anyway. Every single detail of those costumes is another tool to tell the story of the show. This is true for every show if you know what to look for. Each bit of set and costume and prop had someone sit down and think about how to make it look.  This is definitely true for WOT.  Making the costumes hint at a post-apocalyptic world is just one more nugget that advances the storytelling...even as just an easter egg that you absorb and appreciate afterwards.

People pick up all kinds of small details from a variety of things. 
 

If the costuming in WoT implies this is a post-apoc future, I'd never have noticed that detail.
Others may never have noticed the rotting skyscrapers in Episode 1. Others yet may not have noticed that they were mining "scrap metal" in episode 3.
Others yet still may not have got the "hint" when they showed the "past" as more advanced.

I will say though, that you don't throw in all these tiny details, if you don't care about the source.  
 

  

On 8/30/2022 at 11:17 AM, WhiteVeils said:

And yet HOD doesn't even have proper foundational garments in their costumes, making them all droop in the bustline and fit poorly despite belonging to the very richest of the rich. 

Isn't that kind of how Costumes work for most Movies/TV Shows?
E.g. its not about a proper fitting top, but getting the actresses to shows as much cleavage as possible without offending anyone, even if that means squeezing their breasts into their throats, and suffocating them in the process?

[WhiteVeils]

2 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

Isn't that kind of how Costumes work for most Movies/TV Shows?
E.g. its not about a proper fitting top, but getting the actresses to shows as much cleavage as possible without offending anyone, even if that means squeezing their breasts into their throats, and suffocating them in the process?

 

Proper foundation garments can show 'all the cleavage and more'.  I just happened to watch a video from a professional costume designer about the new HotD complaining about the issue of foundation garments which is why I knew about it.

 

To know if there were proper undergarments for the costume, you don't look at the clevage showing. You look under the breasts.  Clothing should not have a fold or a crease under the bustline on the outer side. It should be straight and smooth If you do, there's not properly fitted.
 

 

[Dagon Thyne]

In the WOT, they tried to condense too much into 8 episodes.  And they made unnessessary changes that made the show feel too different from the books.  

[SilentRoamer]

I don't understand this talk about how the garments show a post apoc future?

How do people think clothes have survived thousands of years, and the Breaking? Very little has survived, what did was in museums or storehouses or statis boxes. 

I'm not a fan of the ruined skyscrapers, it felt very Shannara Chronicles to me. 

On a positive note - I actually really like the costumes in WoT, they felt appropriately rural and seemed authentic to me. I never had criticisms of the costumes, personally. 

[WhiteVeils]

 

4 hours ago, SilentRoamer said:

I don't understand this talk about how the garments show a post apoc future?

The clothes don't come from post-apocalyptic times.  The style itself is not European medieval.  At All. 

 

The style is unique to the WOT world and not based on Western European classical styling, unlike, say, Game of Thrones. The lines are cleaner. Excess fabric is restrained.  An Asian neckline, rather than a European neckline, is used almost universally.  The fabric dyes are bright.  Certain technologies (like invisible closings) are used that were not available in medieval Europe. 

 

That means that while the clothes themselves are not post apocalpytic, certain fashion elements have been retained from times when there was a different fashion past than earth.  A fashion past more like our modern asthetic.  That's what I mean by post-apoc future.

[Chivalry]

20 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

 

The clothes don't come from post-apocalyptic times.  The style itself is not European medieval.  At All. 

 

The style is unique to the WOT world and not based on Western European classical styling, unlike, say, Game of Thrones. The lines are cleaner. Excess fabric is restrained.  An Asian neckline, rather than a European neckline, is used almost universally.  The fabric dyes are bright.  Certain technologies (like invisible closings) are used that were not available in medieval Europe. 

 

That means that while the clothes themselves are not post apocalpytic, certain fashion elements have been retained from times when there was a different fashion past than earth.  A fashion past more like our modern asthetic.  That's what I mean by post-apoc future.

 

Wow, I really know nothing about clothing.

 

But I do like the costumes in WOT. Can't explain why, but I appreciate the look.

[Agitel]

What GOT and HOTD have that WOT and ROP lack is stronger writing, imo. 

 

I don't think it's the color palette or aesthetic or the actors. I think it really boils down to the writing.

[SilentRoamer]

The last episode of HotD (1x08) was really amazing. Despite most of the episode comprising of discussions between characters, in a static location. It really was a masterclass in good, suspenseful storytelling. Comparing this to the recent RoP (1x07) and it is absolutely leagues ahead. 

[AdamA]

Note that color palette is the thing I said Game of Thrones did poorly, not well. Being generally drowned out and too dark has continued to be a criticism of HOTD. Episode 7 had similar complaints to The Long Night, that people couldn't see it. What I think they do better is general craftsmanship of the visual effects and set building. Comparing King's Landing to Tar Valon and it just looks like more of a real city to me. Some of that is not a fair comparison because King's Landing is largely actually filmed in a real city, whereas Tar Valon is a far more fantastical place that needs to be purely sets and CGI. But even comparing, say, the season 4 GOT battle when the Wildlings storm the wall to last year's battle of Fal Dara with Trollocs storming a wall. To me, it was pretty night and day. The latter was bullshit. A lot of that, especially the sparsity of the army, was probably attributable to Covid, so hopefully it improves, but it still made for a crappy viewing experience and a disappointing finish to the season, which I actually thought was still mostly pretty decent through the first 6 episodes, unlike many here who hated it start to finish.

 

But this was all said after seeing one episode of House of the Dragon. It has distinguished itself quite a bit more in the interim. Episode 8 was fantastic and it is clearly building toward a great finale that will make us want to see season two immediately. Paddy Considine was damn well Shakespearean in his final performance and will probably get awards consideration for this. Every scene better than the last.

 

That said, it is quite a bit different than Game of Thrones. Something Game of Thrones had that doesn't necessarily speak to quality but to appeal, was the more or less instant hook of the mystery surrounding who killed Jon Arryn and the sense that Ned was uncovering a huge conspiracy regarding Joffrey's parenthood. It made the season very bingeable, even though it came out week-by-week. HOTD has been far more of a slow burn, with nearly all of season one being stage setting more than plot, but it's so well-written and well-acted that it rewards anyone who sticks with it. And if you've read any of the source material, you know it will get explosive pretty quickly in the next season.

 

To be perfectly honest, something I think it has going for it is that it just isn't very fantastic. For one reason or another, whether it's difficulty in making convincing special effects, fake languages, fake races, characters played by humans we know are human but we see defying physics, obviously weaker people winning fights against giants, the actors and writers just don't know how to do it, whatever it is, live action fantasy television is very hard and almost never done well. HOTD is closer to Vikings than it is to Lord of the Rings, and television can do historical fiction a lot better. At least live action. Vox Machina and Arcane both proved last year that fantasy can easily be done quite well via animation.

[wotfan4472]

On 9/22/2022 at 3:49 AM, WhiteVeils said:

It's clear in WOT they're trying to hint that it's a Future post apocalyptic Earth, so in some ways it needs to be even more creative...have that hint of modernity with their medieval.  Also, most of the people we've seen (save Suian in full regalia) are not the elites that GOT focus on. Those  'peasants' are the primary cast, and need to be distinct. GOT doesn't have many middle class folks.

GOT did have middle class folks, and poorer folks too. They were either killed while going about their days as villain fodder, or shock value back drop kills to show how grey the main cast were, and kept doing it throughout all 8 seasons. Even the active dead were treated like that.

From what I have scene HOD is doing the exact same things.

Which I did not appreciate, since I read WOT, and love the characters, which have all of that and more.

 

The first season of WOT did those folks much, much better, where to me, they felt like people going about their days, while hinting at the lives of the high class folks, as seen through Moiraine, Lan, which pretty much are high class, and the Aes Sedai Hall.

[ForsakenPotato]

Agree with @wotfan4472. Maybe another way of putting it is that GoT and especially HoT are primarily concerned with how people fall from power -- especially how good people fall from power because goodness and kindness can be exploited. It's mostly about royalty because they represent the ultimate power (and demonstrate how it can be taken away, usually via violence). There are occasional happy moments but mostly these are tragedies. Any good character that manages the minor miracle of survival carries such deep psychological wounds that they may or may not be good by the end, and definitely will not be happy.

 

WoT is chiefly concerned with how good people rise to power from humble backgrounds and make a better world. It's a story that's a lot more comforting that GoT/HotD, which at least for me was something I really needed when I found it. At the same time, I honestly think that makes it harder in some ways for actors to give any real groundbreaking performances. I also love Paddy Considine in HotD like @AdamA

mentioned -- but who could he be in WoT where he could show that much range and be given that much screentime? I LOVE the characters in WoT (book and show) but they are not quite as complicated, and aren't meant to be because it would make many of them less likeable and fun. I think the actors on WoT are doing decently with the material and in a few cases even giving more nuance than I noticed in the books, but RJ and GRRM for the most part just don't write the same types of characters and viewers shouldn't expect them to feel similar onscreen. I don't think one is better than the other (I could list a lot I think each show has done well and poorly), but it's comparing apples to oranges.

Edited October 14, 2022 by ForsakenPotato
remove some stuff for clarity

[DojoToad]

7 hours ago, ForsakenPotato said:

Agree with @wotfan4472. Maybe another way of putting it is that GoT and especially HoT are primarily concerned with how people fall from power -- especially how good people fall from power because goodness and kindness can be exploited. It's mostly about royalty because they represent the ultimate power (and demonstrate how it can be taken away, usually via violence). There are occasional happy moments but mostly these are tragedies. Any good character that manages the minor miracle of survival carries such deep psychological wounds that they may or may not be good by the end, and definitely will not be happy.

 

WoT is chiefly concerned with how good people rise to power from humble backgrounds and make a better world. It's a story that's a lot more comforting that GoT/HotD, which at least for me was something I really needed when I found it. At the same time, I honestly think that makes it harder in some ways for actors to give any real groundbreaking performances. I also love Paddy Considine in HotD like @AdamA

mentioned -- but who could he be in WoT where he could show that much range and be given that much screentime? I LOVE the characters in WoT (book and show) but they are not quite as complicated, and aren't meant to be because it would make many of them less likeable and fun. I think the actors on WoT are doing decently with the material and in a few cases even giving more nuance than I noticed in the books, but RJ and GRRM for the most part just don't write the same types of characters and viewers shouldn't expect them to feel similar onscreen. I don't think one is better than the other (I could list a lot I think each show has done well and poorly), but it's comparing apples to oranges.

I think the apples and oranges comparison might be a bit overstated. Good, bad, evil, divine is often a matter of perspective especially when truth is subjective. That goes for both characters and events. 
 

In the end HotD, WoT, GoT, RoP are all dramatic fantasy TV shows. That’s about as apples to apples as you can get in any comparison.