Moiraine, Siuan, and the Oath

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

On 12/2/2022 at 11:43 AM, Dagon Thyne said:

On 12/2/2022 at 11:38 AM, DojoToad said:

You are correct, they will both get you from Cleveland to Detroit...

Yes, but the overall impact of each were very different.  

And if you try using a car to get from Cleveland to Paris (France) you will get very soggy.😃

[JyP]

On 12/4/2022 at 3:55 AM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

And if you try using a car to get from Cleveland to Paris (France) you will get very soggy.😃

not if you can rent about a trillion cars. 😁

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

19 hours ago, JyP said:

not if you can rent about a trillion cars. 😁

You can't for the obvious reasons that 1) there are not a trillion cars available 2) there is not enough money to pay for renting that many cars 3) your credit reference would result in hire companies refusing your business long before that 4) the time required would exceed your lifespan and the earliest cars would have rusted to nothing long before you finished.

[DigificWriter]

Even if he hadn't done so previously, Rafe has now officially confirmed that Moiraine and Siuan did in fact ter'angreal for their rendezvous in The Flame of Tar Valon.

[DojoToad]

3 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

Even if he hadn't done so previously, Rafe has now officially confirmed that Moiraine and Siuan did in fact ter'angreal for their rendezvous in The Flame of Tar Valon.

Sad for me.  Not the ter'angreal itself, but how much the sexuality has been pushed to the forefront.  Jordan kept this mostly in the background and up to imagination - with major exceptions (specifically Rand and his first time with each of his three partners).  Percentage of this stuff in the books was way lower than what was shown in S1.

 

But this is just a personal hang-up for me.  Modern audiences demand more titillating content than this prude is used to.  Perhaps it is just the medium though.  I never minded reading the sexy scenes in WoT or GoT (which was much more graphic), but seeing it on the screen introduces a level of discomfort for me.

 

Maybe a psychologist could unravel the contradiction, hypocrisy, or whatever it is...

Edited December 7, 2022 by DojoToad

[DaddyFinn]

2 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Not the ter'angreal itself, but how much the sexuality has been pushed to the forefront.  Jordan kept this mostly in the background and up to imagination - with major exceptions (specifically Rand and his first time with each of his three partners).  Percentage of this stuff in the books was way lower than what was shown in S1.

We have seen kissing and couple of shirtless men and one pair of boobs. It's very much in line with RJ's writing and even he went way more graphic and explicit at moments. I'm very happy it's not near GoT level of unnecessary nudity&sex 

[DojoToad]

29 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

We have seen kissing and couple of shirtless men and one pair of boobs.

Don't forget Lan's butt. 😁  And Rand/Egwene getting busy at the inn.

29 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

It's very much in line with RJ's writing and even he went way more graphic and explicit at moments. I'm very happy it's not near GoT level of unnecessary nudity&sex 

My point wasn't whether it is right/wrong - just that I personally think it is way more than was in the books.  I did note that Jordan went way more graphic.  But as a percentage of the whole work (of books) there is a lot more sexual situations, nudity, etc. in S1 than was 'shown' in the books to the same point in the story.  For all the stuff they had to cut out for the transition to screen, they made some interesting choices of what was left in and/or added.

 

I think the GoT show was way more in line with the sex/nudity as the books.  It was way more 'graphic' than WoT but wasn't adding stuff not already present in the books.

[expat]

Quote

I think the GoT show was way more in line with the sex/nudity as the books.  It was way more 'graphic' than WoT but wasn't adding stuff not already present in the books.

It is important to set the tone of the series in season 1.  There is a lot of sex/nudity in the books (steam tents, wise one visits to Rhuiden, rapes, Mat/Tuon, Mat and other girlfriends, Rand and his harem, torture scenes, Seanchan lightly dressed slaves, Forsaken lightly dressed pets etc.), just not in EOTW.  The level of sex/nudity in season one gives viewers a taste of how the series will handle the topic later on when it becomes unavoidable.     

[DojoToad]

12 minutes ago, expat said:

It is important to set the tone of the series in season 1.  There is a lot of sex/nudity in the books (steam tents, wise one visits to Rhuiden, rapes, Mat/Tuon, Mat and other girlfriends, Rand and his harem, torture scenes, Seanchan lightly dressed slaves, Forsaken lightly dressed pets etc.), just not in EOTW.  The level of sex/nudity in season one gives viewers a taste of how the series will handle the topic later on when it becomes unavoidable.     

Why?

 

These topics were introduced to us slowly in the books.  Why can't they be introduced as needed in the show as well?  Why does S1 have to set the tone for the entire series?  Can't a show evolve just as a book series?

 

Are they bringing in more of the sexy stuff earlier because of compressing the book content?  14 books down to however many seasons...

[WhiteVeils]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

Why?

 

These topics were introduced to us slowly in the books.  Why can't they be introduced as needed in the show as well?  Why does S1 have to set the tone for the entire series?  Can't a show evolve just as a book series?

 

Are they bringing in more of the sexy stuff earlier because of compressing the book content?  14 books down to however many seasons...

 

I think they do this for a very good reason, and not just because they're compressing book content.

 

A show is an investment of time, and the first season, indeed, the first episode of a show, is what people use to determine whether or not they are going to watch a series. One of those groups of people who make decisions based on the first episode is parents.
 

As a parent of teens, I have to judge whether or not a show is appropriate for my children to watch based on their different ages.  If I was halfway through S2 watching a show that I thought was fine to watch with my teens, and suddenly got smacked with a full nudity scene or something out of Game of Thrones, I'd be more than surprised...I'd be furious. The show had promised content that was OK for my teens, and it would /not/ be.  Disclaimers at the episode start are not sufficient...they're easy to miss, for one thing, and 'partial nudity' or 'nudity' can mean  a HUGE range of different things depending on how the scene is treated. I'm fine with my teens seeing E1 Lan butt, for example, but not a wide range of things in GOT that show less nudity.  

 

In E1, ideally I would want a show to at least present how nudity, sex, and violence will be treated in the series in general, so I know whether that show is safe for my kids to watch.

The show does just that.  With the 'Lan butt/bath' scene, we know that there will be nudity, but it will be handled in a tasteful fashion and not 'full frontal in your face'.  With the Rand/Egwene scene in S1, and later the Suian/Moiraine scene, we know that, most likely, sex will be handled in a way similar to the books...a lot of 'fade to black' or off screen inferred rather than blatantly showing people having at it on screen.  And with Laila's death and the Trolloc attack, we get a good picture of how much intense violence there may be and the kinds of violence we have.

For people not parents, these questions are still important....maybe some viewers will be bored if there is no nudity/sex/violence, and will turn away if it looks too childlike in the early episodes.  The early episodes help set them up for what to expect too.

People are acting like the Siuan/Moiraine scene showed anything.  It didn't. Many things in the books showed way more.  How does showing them in Book 1 or book 5 make any difference?

[DigificWriter]

5 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Jordan kept this mostly in the background and up to imagination

 

Based on the research I've done since entering the WoT fandom with the television series, it's my understanding that Jordan downplayed the true nature of "pillow friend" relationships and emphasized the hetero element of Moiraine's sexual orientation only because of the societal and cultural attitudes at the time he wrote the novella that became New Spring, so what the show has done is take the subtextual, make it textual, and expand upon it (presumedly with the blessing and input of both Jordan's wife and Brandon Sanderson).

 

Taking the subtextual nature of Moiraine and Siuan's relationship as "pillow friends", making it textual, and expanding upon it also serves as a straightforward way to establish and convey White Tower politics and the truths behind Moiraine's mission to find the Dragon Reborn by allowing Rafe and the show's other writers to present a 'false front' picture of the relationship between Moiraine and Siuan as Aes Sedai and Amralyn and then subvert audience expectations by presenting what's actually going on, as does using/introducing ter'angreal and making their meeting be physical rather than mystical/supernatural.

[DojoToad]

26 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

 

I think they do this for a very good reason, and not just because they're compressing book content.

 

A show is an investment of time, and the first season, indeed, the first episode of a show, is what people use to determine whether or not they are going to watch a series. One of those groups of people who make decisions based on the first episode is parents.
 

As a parent of teens, I have to judge whether or not a show is appropriate for my children to watch based on their different ages.  If I was halfway through S2 watching a show that I thought was fine to watch with my teens, and suddenly got smacked with a full nudity scene or something out of Game of Thrones, I'd be more than surprised...I'd be furious. The show had promised content that was OK for my teens, and it would /not/ be.  Disclaimers at the episode start are not sufficient...they're easy to miss, for one thing, and 'partial nudity' or 'nudity' can mean  a HUGE range of different things depending on how the scene is treated. I'm fine with my teens seeing E1 Lan butt, for example, but not a wide range of things in GOT that show less nudity.  

 

In E1, ideally I would want a show to at least present how nudity, sex, and violence will be treated in the series in general, so I know whether that show is safe for my kids to watch.

The show does just that.  With the 'Lan butt/bath' scene, we know that there will be nudity, but it will be handled in a tasteful fashion and not 'full frontal in your face'.  With the Rand/Egwene scene in S1, and later the Suian/Moiraine scene, we know that, most likely, sex will be handled in a way similar to the books...a lot of 'fade to black' or off screen inferred rather than blatantly showing people having at it on screen.  And with Laila's death and the Trolloc attack, we get a good picture of how much intense violence there may be and the kinds of violence we have.

For people not parents, these questions are still important....maybe some viewers will be bored if there is no nudity/sex/violence, and will turn away if it looks too childlike in the early episodes.  The early episodes help set them up for what to expect too.

People are acting like the Siuan/Moiraine scene showed anything.  It didn't. Many things in the books showed way more.  How does showing them in Book 1 or book 5 make any difference?

Well said.  I see the difference.  But couldn't the same be said of books?  Reading 'Eye of the World' gave me no idea what Rand and his lady friends would be doing later.

Edited December 7, 2022 by DojoToad

[SinisterDeath]

20 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Well said.  I see the difference.  But couldn't the same be said of books?  Reading 'Eye of the World' gave me no idea what Rand and his lady friends would be doing later.

 

The very nature of the books, and the reading level/comprehension capability of various age groups, means teenagers and older will find the books, compared to young children & pre-teens.

There's also a fundamental difference in explaining a tent full of sweaty naked people just being naked in a book, and visually seeing a tent full of sweaty naked people, just being naked on screen.

Ironically, episode 6 included full frontal, it was just in the background. Like the books, the nudity was like the sweat tents. It wasn't sexualized nudity. It was just people going about their business. 

[DojoToad]

4 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

The very nature of the books, and the reading level/comprehension capability of various age groups, means teenagers and older will find the books, compared to young children & pre-teens.

There's also a fundamental difference in explaining a tent full of sweaty naked people just being naked in a book, and visually seeing a tent full of sweaty naked people, just being naked on screen.

Ironically, episode 6 included full frontal, it was just in the background. Like the books, the nudity was like the sweat tents. It wasn't sexualized nudity. It was just people going about their business. 

More good points.  This is why I come here.  Different perspectives help - even if I don't always agree with them.  In this case though - spot on!

 

Thanks @WhiteVeils and @SinisterDeath

[Scarloc99]

20 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Why?

 

These topics were introduced to us slowly in the books.  Why can't they be introduced as needed in the show as well?  Why does S1 have to set the tone for the entire series?  Can't a show evolve just as a book series?

 

Are they bringing in more of the sexy stuff earlier because of compressing the book content?  14 books down to however many seasons...

Because if you start a TV series PG and then turn it to a 15/18 rating in season 3 parents have to suddenly explain to children why they can no longer watch that TV show they enjoyed. 

By showing in episode 1 Bam, there is going to be sex on screen, and nudity, you allow people to make an informed decision if this is a show they want to watch/want there children to watch. 


Edit And I need to read all the replies on a thread before replying to one because this same answer was given above in far more detail lol 

Edited December 8, 2022 by Sir_Charrid

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

16 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

By showing in episode 1 Bam, there is going to be sex on screen, and nudity, you allow people to make an informed decision if this is a show they want to watch/want there children to watch. 


Edit And I need to read all the replies on a thread before replying to one because this same answer was given above in far more detail lol 

Also while you are editing in the above it should be "their" not "there" (although the possessive applied to persons may not be PC anymore 😀- maybe structure it "minors for whom they are responsible").

[Gary Again]

I was watching the series again and reading here about the idea of having Siuan executed instead of stilled has some really interesting ramifications with this oath and makes me thing this may be the way they are going. Book readers will hear this oath and think it's a clever way to avoid Elaida being able to take advantage of the oath but Moraine's version of the oath may actually be more restrictive. If Siuan is executed that means nobody can call Moraine back and she has no way to ever return to the tower. The original oath would have actually given her some wiggle room because Egwene could always call her back but the fact that she changes it means if anything happens to Siuan there is nothing that can break this oath for Moraine. 

 

I feel like there may be a good chance that they do this in that Moraine being clever here may actually backfire on her and seem like a huge negative but actually put her on the right path. This seems to happen in life too where something that feels really negative at the time actually sets us up where we need to be retrospectively so it could be an interesting way to show the pattern weaving as it wills. I can't really remember Moraine doing anything particularly significant at the tower in the later part of the books (I could be wrong though it's been a while) so it seems like this would fit her overall journey anyway.

[Elder_Haman]

5 hours ago, Gary Again said:

I was watching the series again and reading here about the idea of having Siuan executed instead of stilled has some really interesting ramifications with this oath and makes me thing this may be the way they are going

This wouldn't be a bad idea. They will need to find someone to replace Siuan as Egwene's mentor during her rise to power and someone else for Nynaeve to heal. But otherwise, Siuan's arc is dispensable.

[KakitaOCU]

2 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

This wouldn't be a bad idea. They will need to find someone to replace Siuan as Egwene's mentor during her rise to power and someone else for Nynaeve to heal. But otherwise, Siuan's arc is dispensable.

Combine it.  Moraine disappears from the narrative in Book 5, postpone the RedStone Doorway, Moraine gets stilled fighting Lanfear in Cairhienin, goes with Egwene when Egwene is called.  Acts as her mentor, gets healed by Nynaeve, returns to Rand, Lanfear attacks again, Redstone.   

Or maybe Moraine's stilled now, we start Egwene's path sooner and then she gets healed to go face Lanfear.

It's clunky.  But I'm also not a paid writer taking time to think all the ramifications through, I'm just off the cuff improvising.

Edited December 20, 2022 by KakitaOCU

[ForsakenPotato]

Yeah, if I recall correctly I think it was stated that either some characters would die sooner or die when they didn't at all in the books. Siuan, Moiraine, and Cadsuane are different characters but they all fit into a similar role of older white tower Aes Sedai who help guide our young heroes (and are not to be trifled with, young man!). In my opinion that makes any of them (or maybe even more than one of them, especially Moiraine and Siuan with their tragic love story) prime candidates for a death in season 2 or 3. It ups the stakes for our main characters and it also means from a logistical perspective they can hire more well known actresses who may not be willing to stick around for 7 seasons.

[DigificWriter]

Because I'm coming at the WoT narrative purely from the perspective of how it's being presented onscreen, I seem to be a little more openly willing to view the presentation of Rosamund Pike's Moiraine as the central POV character as being a permanent, rather than transitive, adaptive choice than other people with more familiarity with and love of the novels, and so I personally think it's entirely possible that Moiraine's ultimate fate is altered in order to accommodate the shift towards telling the story from her point of view and that we end up seeing a character like Siuan also having their ultimate fate changed as well in order to intimately impact Moiraine.

[ForsakenPotato]

@DigificWriter that's an interesting perspective! How do you see that impacting things like the potential passing of her warder bond to Nyneave? I think the show is still setting up for that to happen based on season 1.

 

Unpopular opinion on this forum, but I think Moiraine is the most improved character from book to show, so I have no complaints about getting more scenes with her. I am less optimistic that means she'll stick around as a main character though...I think she's being portrayed as more likeable so that we can have our hearts ripped out when she dies.

[DigificWriter]

40 minutes ago, ForsakenPotato said:

@DigificWriter that's an interesting perspective! How do you see that impacting things like the potential passing of her warder bond to Nyneave? I think the show is still setting up for that to happen based on season 1.

 

Unpopular opinion on this forum, but I think Moiraine is the most improved character from book to show, so I have no complaints about getting more scenes with her. I am less optimistic that means she'll stick around as a main character though...I think she's being portrayed as more likeable so that we can have our hearts ripped out when she dies.

 

Rafe (and Rosamund, I belive) has described what happened to Moiraine at the Eye as a Stilling (although some within the fandom disagree with that assessment).

 

Taking that description at face value within the context of WoT lore as presented by the show, Moiraine and Lan's formal Bond would just be gone.

 

Also, it really isn't ambiguous that Rafe has positioned Moiraine as the central POV character of the TV show, as both he and Rosamund have openly and explicitly admitted that Moiraine is the show's lead character even though the story being told is actually about Rand and those closest to him.

 

What's been disputed by some is the degree, based on the novels, to which this fact may or may not change as the show goes on.

Edited December 21, 2022 by DigificWriter

[Dagon Thyne]

On 12/7/2022 at 5:09 AM, DojoToad said:

Sad for me.  Not the ter'angreal itself, but how much the sexuality has been pushed to the forefront.  Jordan kept this mostly in the background and up to imagination - with major exceptions (specifically Rand and his first time with each of his three partners).  Percentage of this stuff in the books was way lower than what was shown in S1.

 

But this is just a personal hang-up for me.  Modern audiences demand more titillating content than this prude is used to.  Perhaps it is just the medium though.  I never minded reading the sexy scenes in WoT or GoT (which was much more graphic), but seeing it on the screen introduces a level of discomfort for me.

 

Maybe a psychologist could unravel the contradiction, hypocrisy, or whatever it is...

Well the book has a lot of stuff that is mentioned but not spelled out.  But it's still happening.  

[ForsakenPotato]

Could be! I think part of what is confusing is that if the bond is severed already, Lan's "hey can you unmask the bond plz" at the end of season 1 seems to indicate that either the bond being severed wasn't noticeable to him or wasn't any worse than it being masked. But we know from the sequence with the other warder earlier in the season that it should be absolutely devastating.