Plot Issue Definition Level Set - Maybe Book spoilers

[DigificWriter]

2 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Moiraine said something like "I was unaware she(Nyn) can/could channel". Is that the same if she had said "I didn't know she can/could channel"?

 

I would say " Yes", and I would also view either of those statements as a lie because the show demonstrates that she did know that Nynaeve was a Channeller.

 

2 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Can those mean different things?

 

Not really, at least to me.

 

The writers could try to parse Moiraine's words in the show so that she wasn't lying, but that's just getting into the weeds and trying to be too clever.

[DaddyFinn]

15 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

I would say " Yes", and I would also view either of those statements as a lie because the show demonstrates that she did know that Nynaeve was a Channeller.

 

 

Not really, at least to me.

 

The writers could try to parse Moiraine's words in the show so that she wasn't lying, but that's just getting into the weeds and trying to be too clever.

I agree that Moiraine knew Nynaeve could listen to the wind and therefore channel. I just feel that Moiraine could convince herself to not be lying when she says she was "unaware Nynaeve could channel" because women can only sense one another when they are embracing saidar. Moiraine was kind of unaware because she could not sense it at the moment even though she knew Nyn could channel. English is not my first language so I might not get every single nuance right but that's just my "gut feel" and how I can see it work. Sorry if that's confusing, I'm not sure I managed to make myself clear enough.

[TheDreadReader]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

 

I would say " Yes", and I would also view either of those statements as a lie because the show demonstrates that she did know that Nynaeve was a Channeller.

 

 

 

Definitionally, 'could' indicates possibility whereas 'can' has a few more ranges of meaning.   Using a pretty strict meaning of 'could' would make not make it a lie because there are a range of possible reasons for her being unable to channel at any given moment.  

 

A few examples...

"I was unaware she could channel (because she has a block)"

"I was unaware she could channel (because she is untrained)"

"I was unaware she could channel (because she was angry)"

"I was unaware she could channel (because I was unconscious)"

 

All those would be similar in construction to how she responds deceptively elsewhere in the same episode. 

 

With the word "can" you can do similar things to play off the different meanings of "can" to make it not a lie as she composes her response.  

 

For example...

"I was unaware she can channel (because she is untrained and therefore doesn't have the ability to channel)"

"I was unaware she can channel (because I never saw her have the opportunity to do so)"

 

Her knowledge of whether Nynaeve is a channeler or not is not the most important part of the equation really.  When she responds to questions about the location of Rand, she knows generally where he is, but she responds with a reference to her eyes and ears.   It is generally the same thing here.

 

 

 

[DigificWriter]

4 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

Definitionally, 'could' indicates possibility whereas 'can' has a few more ranges of meaning.   Using a pretty strict meaning of 'could' would make not make it a lie because there are a range of possible reasons for her being unable to channel at any given moment.  

 

A few examples...

"I was unaware she could channel (because she has a block)"

"I was unaware she could channel (because she is untrained)"

"I was unaware she could channel (because she was angry)"

"I was unaware she could channel (because I was unconscious)"

 

All those would be similar in construction to how she responds deceptively elsewhere in the same episode. 

 

With the word "can" you can do similar things to play off the different meanings of "can" to make it not a lie as she composes her response.  

 

For example...

"I was unaware she can channel (because she is untrained and therefore doesn't have the ability to channel)"

"I was unaware she can channel (because I never saw her have the opportunity to do so)"

 

Her knowledge of whether Nynaeve is a channeler or not is not the most important part of the equation really.  When she responds to questions about the location of Rand, she knows generally where he is, but she responds with a reference to her eyes and ears.   It is generally the same thing here.

 

 

 

 

All of this qualifies as 'getting into the weeds and trying to be too clever' for me.

 

This whole situation is a plothole that the show created for itself, and it surprises me that it's not really an issue for anyone other than me, especially given some of the other incredibly nitpicky things that some people have chosen to focus on.

 

 

[DaddyFinn]

5 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

All of this qualifies as 'getting into the weeds and trying to be too clever' for me.

 

This whole situation is a plothole that the show created for itself, and it surprises me that it's not really an issue for anyone other than me, especially given some of the other incredibly nitpicky things that some people have chosen to focus on.

 

 

I thought it was just good Aes Sedai talk and nothing more. ?‍♂️

[TheDreadReader]

2 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

I thought it was just good Aes Sedai talk and nothing more. ?‍♂️

 

Which the show gave several other examples of within that same episode. 

[TheDreadReader]

10 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

All of this qualifies as 'getting into the weeds and trying to be too clever' for me.

 

This whole situation is a plothole that the show created for itself, and it surprises me that it's not really an issue for anyone other than me, especially given some of the other incredibly nitpicky things that some people have chosen to focus on.

 

 

It really isn't that complicated.   It is similar to when I'd ask my English teacher "Can I go to the rest room?" and she'd respond "You can.  But, may you?  That is the question."   Sometimes, the specific meanings of words can be important especially when the show has already spent time establishing that you have to really listen to what and Aes Sedai says.

 

I don't see any flaw in the scenes plot causality or construction there.  

 

The oath rod scene?  There could be some problems there.

 

 

 

[KakitaOCU]

I just want to say how much I love something the showrunners are very clearly doing deliberately and I hope it doesn't bite them.

I remember debates back in the old days about how simple the First Oath was to deal with and how obvious this or that scenario was.

This show has a constant stream of certain people arguing plothole or deliberate lie while other certain people say "Is it, or did you just hear what you wanted to hear vs what was said?"

"We don't know if the Dragon is a boy or girl."  Does Moraine not specifically know?  Or do the Aes Sedai as a whole not know, or does she fully suspect but since she hasn't found the DR she technically doesn't factually know?  Or....

"One of you four is the Dragon Reborn."  Does she really think it might be any of the 4?  Or is she at this point relatively certain it's one of them and the statement is factually true.  (IE "Someone on this forum is KakitaOCU")..  Or...

And of course the current "I was unaware she could channel." that others have already pointed out the myriad ways that spins.

[DigificWriter]

Based on what the show visually communicated to us with regards to Moiraine's knowledge about Nynaeve, she should have had absolutely no ability to obscure her words because anything that she said other than 'Yes, I knew Nynaeve could channel' is an outright falsehood and would put her in violation of her Aes Sedai oaths.

[KakitaOCU]

17 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

Based on what the show visually communicated to us with regards to Moiraine's knowledge about Nynaeve, she should have had absolutely no ability to obscure her words because anything that she said other than 'Yes, I knew Nynaeve could channel' is an outright falsehood and would put her in violation of her Aes Sedai oaths.

Nonsense.  The First Oath allows exact wording so long as it's true.

Moraine doesn't feel like all Aes Sedai are her biological sisters, yet she can easily tell the WhiteCloaks she hopes to find her sister in the next town.

She already knows exactly where Rand and Mat are and can still tell Egwene "I have eyes and ears watching for them" in response to a question about have they been found.

People have already given 3-5 explanations of what her phrasing meant.  The statement "I was unaware she can channel"  Can mean she thought she was too old to learn, thought she was too blocked and unable to channel consciously...

RJ flat out said "The oaths: They are quite subjective; if an Aes Sedai believes she is not lying, then the Oath doesn't stop her."  So if Moraine feels Nynaeve was too old and unable to become a proper channeler, and in her mind being able to channel means being able to deliberately touch the power and weave it, tadah, problem solved.

To be clear, ALL the oaths have giant barn doors like this.

The oath against using the power as a weapon?  Then we have an Aes Sedai punish someone with a beating using the power.  RJ himself said the Aes Sedai could have considered the beatings a just punishment rather than the use of a weapon.

Edit: Because I thought of an example flat out in the first book.  Various people point blank ask Moraine "Who are you, what is your name" that sort of question and she responds with "You may call me Mistress Alys" or the like.   According to your logic because someone was asking point blank she should have had to state "My name is Moraine Damodred"  yet she doesn't.  Because she answered with a completely different statement than the question was requesting.

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by KakitaOCU

[EmreY]

5 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

I would say " Yes", and I would also view either of those statements as a lie because the show demonstrates that she did know that Nynaeve was a Channeller.

 

I believe the Oaths prevent lies, but don't force the truth?

 

If so, if at any point in the future I was asked: "Did you know DigificWriter posted on Dragonmount?" I could truthfully reply "I was unaware of it / did not know it".  Because I was, until today.  Some people take questions literally, and this lacks a timestamp.  A very narrow space to crawl through, but it can be done.  A bit like asking someone who also speaks German "Did you speak German" to which one can very easily reply no.  And here I think Blondjaw inadvertently helps out, because she frames the problem within the context of things that happened before the Nynaeve reveal, when Moraine might have suspected, but did not know.

 

Had the next question been "When were you aware she could channel?", then I don't know how Moraine could have replied without everything eventually coming out.

 

Still, I agree, a bit clunky, and I would have expected Moiraine to have difficulty saying what she did.

Edited December 13, 2021 by EmreY

[DigificWriter]

I don't believe that Aes Sedai double-speak can be applied to the question of whether or not Moiraine knew that Nynaeve was a Channeller because it is an indisputable fact that she does know Nynaeve can Channel.

 

I also don't see how Moiraine pretending like Mat and Rand weren't already in Tar Valon isn't a complete breaking of the rule that Aes Sedai can't speak any word that is untrue, but that's a separate issue.

[Spiritweaver1]

On 12/12/2021 at 12:33 PM, DigificWriter said:

@Ralph Thanks for answering my question. I personally don't think we as an audience are supposed to attribute the contradictions in Moiraine's behavior and statements with and to Egwene and her behavior and statements with and towards Lan, other Aes Sedai, and even Nynaeve herself as being anything other than contradictions, but you clearly aren't me.

 

With regards to whether or not we as an audience can use a lack of visible weaves to determine whether someone is Channelling in-universe, though, the show didn't visualize Liandrin's weaves when she caused a rockslide to cut off the escape of the male Channeler that she and her fellow Red Sisters were chasing at the beginning of Episode 1 even though we know that that's what she did, so we as an audience therefore can't definitively say that a lack of visual weaves means no Channeling from an out-of-universe perspective.

Excellent catch another plot hole.  The writers forgot to have the VFX team show her weaves.  Otherwise it is just foolishness.  I could maybe buy the idea that unconscious channeling like listening to the wind doesn't produce weaves but clearly all the conscious channeling so far male and female a like produces squiggly lines.  

 

I chalk this one up to lack of coordination due to Covid rather than sloppy work on somebodies part.

[Sabio]

We don't know when she found out Mat and Rand were in Tar Valon, since there was no explanation and mostly just her appearing by their inn.  But when we know for sure she knows they are in Tar Valon she never says she doesn't know

[Kudzu]

10 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Sarah Nakamura confirmed on twitter that in the show women can't sense the ability in other women unless the other women are actively embracing saidar. Maybe Moiraine twisted the truth around that since Nynaeve had never emraced saidar in a situation where Moiraine could have sensed it? 

 

Edit. Moiraine said something like "I was unaware she(Nyn) can/could channel". Is that the same if she had said "I didn't know she can/could channel"? Can those mean different things?

 

If this is the case, that they can't sense other woman if they aren't holding the power, then it's really easy to explain why Moiraine didn't speak a word that wasn't true.

 

1. There is no scene in the show where Moiraine is told Nynaeve can listen to the wind. Like I've said previously, it's reasonable to assume she was told, but we don't know that 100%.

2. Even if someone did tell her (whether it was Nynaeve herself or someone else), that doesn't mean Moiraine has to fully believed it. It's common for Wisdom's to claim they can (or possibly even think they can), whether or not it's true. If Moiraine didn't witness her doing it, then she doesn't know for a fact she can.

3. Moiraine says "I was unaware she could channel" and then "I was unaware that she could channel". If Moirane hasn't seen Nynaeve channel for herself or sensed the ability in her, those statements can be true. "I was aware she claimed to be able to listen to the wind" isn't the same as "I was aware she could channel"

 

Remember Moiraine only has to convince herself she isn't speaking an untrue word. Not anybody else.

[WhiteVeils]

 

How would you characterize the following scenario's?

 

1) If it turns out Matt isn't cured of the dagger and there they were in TV with all the resources required for the permanent separation.  

 

2) Perrin entering the TV waygate with no weapon.

 

3) Perrin being called Young Bull by wolves when he gets so he can talk to them if that ever materializes.

 

1 - Too Early to tell what it will be.  Moiraine could have cured him completely and he ends up having to touch the dagger again, willingly or unwillingly, getting recontaminated and falling into her "If he touches it again he may be completely lost" category.  Or Moiraine could just be wrong...thinking she cured him completely but not managing it.  Right now, I think that Mat was cured of the dagger, and did not stay because of the dagger, but because he has seen the evil inside himself due to his experience with the dagger and believes that if he were the Dragon, he would end up joining the Dark One and destroy the world. He stayed to prevent that, not to get the dagger at all.

2 - Too early to tell if it will be anything. Perrin has a weapon...Laila's knife (assuming they picked it up with Egwene's clothes when they fled the White Cloaks).  He needs another weapon, true, but maybe he forges one at Fal Dara.

3 -  Too early to tell. No wolves have spoken in order to call Perrin anything.  I don't think wolves are going to "speak" in this version.  Perrin, I believe, will meet Huron/Elias, and learn what the wolves are saying, and his name, from him. There's plenty of time for him to earn a name between now and then.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

5 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

The oath against using the power as a weapon?  Then we have an Aes Sedai punish someone with a beating using the power.  RJ himself said the Aes Sedai could have considered the beatings a just punishment rather than the use of a weapon.

Even more egregiously they feel free to bind people in air without any provocation - is tear gas / a tazer / pepper spray a weapon?  I have not been on the receiving end but I bet those who have would consider that they are.  More to the point is a trolloc catchpole not a weapon?

 

In relation to the first oath it is "to speak no word that is not true" which leaves a lot of wriggle room - in court the oath is to speak "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth" which would be rather stronger (unfortunately the lawyers then attempt to manipulate the rules of evidence to get only the bit of the truth which helps them and avoid the whole truth like the plague.

[chri5]

5 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

I don't believe that Aes Sedai double-speak can be applied to the question of whether or not Moiraine knew that Nynaeve was a Channeller because it is an indisputable fact that she does know Nynaeve can Channel.

 

I also don't see how Moiraine pretending like Mat and Rand weren't already in Tar Valon isn't a complete breaking of the rule that Aes Sedai can't speak any word that is untrue, but that's a separate issue.

She never saw Nynaeve channel. She never saw the results of Nynaeves channeling.

 

She had an idea that Nynaeve might be able to listen to the wind. But she has not confirmed it. 
 

If I knew what Moiraine knew, I wouldn’t be comfortable saying I knew she could channel. I would say I thought she might be able to, and that would truthfully allow me to say I didn’t not know she could channel. 
 

On the Rand question. What she said was true, assuming she didn’t tell every eye and ear to stop looking. I expect she wouldn’t as an attempt to stop others from learning that she had called off the watching, implying they had already arrived. 
 

The path doesn’t say you have to answer questions. She didn’t answer and just gave a different response that the other person took a certain way. 
 

Aes Sedai are masters at the political answer. 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

12 minutes ago, chri5 said:

Aes Sedai are masters at the political answer. 

You should watch Yes Minister and Yes Prime Minister - compared to the British civil service they are novices.

[flinn]

 Just more examples of lazy writing and confusing. Smart writing would be something like "prior to her saving my warder's life, I had never seen her channel"... that would be a truth that all the viewers could nod their heads to and know there was more that she wasnt saying. But this whole scene was just lazy writing.  "Where have I been the last two years?" "I have been searching for someone special to bring back to the tower, and ta-da, I brought two, Nynaeve and Egwene".

 

 But the writers just want you to swallow it and dont think about it or ask any questions... just take what we give you and be happy!

[Kudzu]

2 minutes ago, flinn said:

 Just more examples of lazy writing and confusing. Smart writing would be something like "prior to her saving my warder's life, I had never seen her channel"... that would be a truth that all the viewers could nod their heads to and know there was more that she wasnt saying. But this whole scene was just lazy writing.  "Where have I been the last two years?" "I have been searching for someone special to bring back to the tower, and ta-da, I brought two, Nynaeve and Egwene".

 

 But the writers just want you to swallow it and dont think about it or ask any questions... just take what we give you and be happy!

 

I agree that this scene wasn't the best. I said so in my thoughts on the episode. I think Suian and Moiraine should have been able to dance their way out of that pretty easily without needing to give Moiraine penance. But Moiraine didn't break the 1st oath and I don't believe wording things in a way that makes the viewer think she might have is lazy writing. I think it's clever and is very Wheel of Time.

[Ralph]

2 hours ago, flinn said:

 Just more examples of lazy writing and confusing. Smart writing would be something like "prior to her saving my warder's life, I had never seen her channel"... that would be a truth that all the viewers could nod their heads to and know there was more that she wasnt saying. But this whole scene was just lazy writing.  "Where have I been the last two years?" "I have been searching for someone special to bring back to the tower, and ta-da, I brought two, Nynaeve and Egwene".

 

 But the writers just want you to swallow it and dont think about it or ask any questions... just take what we give you and be happy!

Or they want you to think of answers, which may come up later in the show. Or, in other words, very like the books!! 

[KakitaOCU]

18 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

I don't believe that Aes Sedai double-speak can be applied to the question of whether or not Moiraine knew that Nynaeve was a Channeller because it is an indisputable fact that she does know Nynaeve can Channel.

 

I also don't see how Moiraine pretending like Mat and Rand weren't already in Tar Valon isn't a complete breaking of the rule that Aes Sedai can't speak any word that is untrue, but that's a separate issue.

What you believe is irrelevant other than for your own subjective feelings about the show.

We gave examples of what she could mean to not be lying, we gave quotes from RJ on how the oath actually works and gave examples in the book of that type of lie.

As for the second point, Moraine isn't pretending Mat and Rand weren't already in Tar Valon.  Egwene asks about them and she says she has eyes and ears looking for them.  She does, she has them keeping an eye to tell her if they leave the inn, if they're in danger, if anything bad happens.  She has people looking for them, just not for the reason she's letting Egwene believe.

Just like "I hope to find my sister in the next town" is taken by the WCs to mean a biological relative vs Moraine's meaning of an Aes Sedai.   Just like "You may call me Mistress Alys" is taken as an answer to what her name is versus her ignoring the question and tellin them the name she wants to go by.

I mean this with no offense, but how have you read the books and not already figured out the level of loophole and nonsense the first oath allows?

[DigificWriter]

I don't like the novels and didn't make it very far into them.

 

And not everything that the Ads Sedai do or say can or should be excused by double-speak.

[WOTReader2]

Plot Hole: Moiraine speaking a different oath to Siuan.

 

None of the Aes Sedai noticed. It threw up no questions. Siuan was even crying when she did it. I would think someone would probably call this out and use it. It was hardly a hidden thing. 

 

For, supposedly, great 'political minds' they have all been struck dumb in a matter of moments. I greatly doubt their abilities.

Edited December 14, 2021 by WOTReader2