Plot Issue Definition Level Set - Maybe Book spoilers

[Spiritweaver1]

Before we go much further it may be productive to define our terms around Plot and character issues.  If this has already been done in the book section perhaps somebody would kindly copy the pertinent material over.  The following is my attempt at a definition for some of the potential issues.  I will use examples, some of them made up, others real.  I will be exaggerating to make the point clear.

 

Plot Hole - This is a disconnect in the plot where you can't get from A to B without chemical help.  An example from the books is when Perrin is trying to rescue Matts mom and sisters in TSR and they are scouting the Whitecloak camp.  Perrin asks "Master al'Vere will you ..."  Master al'Vere is not with them.  It should have been Master al'Thor or somebody else.  Another example is in TSR where Perrin and Loial go back to EF to deal with more Trolloc problems.  If  they don't have a channeler or some explanation as to why they don't need one then that would be a Plot hole.

 

Plot foolishness - This is more subjective but it is where a character or the action does something that is completely illogical or foolish or out of character without a decent explanation of it.  This one can be tricky because many of us are carrying tons of lore and events in our head and when the show does something unexpected (like Matt not entering the way's)  we might call it foolishness, but we need to make sure we are removing book influences from our review. IMHO book Matt goes in for sure.  Show Matt maybe not but if not then he should stay dead once he pays the price.  

 

Character flaw - If a character does something completely out of the portrayed character in the show.  I will probably call character flaw if Liandrin turns out to have a normal boyfriend.  Another one that potentially could crop up is that it is not clear yet that Padain Fain actually visited SL  If he hasn't then he remains the DO hound he was in Edmonds Field and doesn't become the free agent evil that he is through most of the series.   This could also be categorized as a plot hole I suppose depending on how his character is portrayed going forward.

 

How would you characterize the following scenario's?

 

If it turns out Matt isn't cured of the dagger and there they were in TV with all the resources required for the permanent separation.  

 

Perrin entering the TV waygate with no weapon.

 

Perrin being called Young Bull by wolves when he gets so he can talk to them if that ever materializes.

 

Thanks for indulging me.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

1 hour ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Perrin asks "Master al'Vere will you ..."  Master al'Vere is not with them.  It should have been Master al'Thor or somebody else.

That is a mistake in editing rather than a plot hole.

[Spiritweaver1]

A mistake in editing or writing resulted in the same thing a plot hole.  The editing process is supposed to catch those mistakes along with spelling, punctuation etc.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ I think you might have a misconception about what a Plothole is.

 

Here's an example of an actual plothole from within the show:

Moiraine clearly identifying 'listening to the wind' - which she knows that both Nynaeve and Egwene can do - as being Channelling, yet outright stating that Nynaeve hadn't Channeled prior to her 'healing explosion'

 

These two things are not only incompatible with one another, they're incompatible with the Aes Sedai not being able to outright lie.

[Ralph]

1 minute ago, DigificWriter said:

^ I think you might have a misconception about what a Plothole is.

 

Here's an example of an actual plothole from within the show:

Moiraine clearly identifying 'listening to the wind' - which she knows that both Nynaeve and Egwene can do - as being Channelling, yet outright stating that Nynaeve hadn't Channeled prior to her 'healing explosion'

 

These two things are not only incompatible with one another, they're incompatible with the Aes Sedai not being able to outright lie.

As being dependent on the ability to channel. Which is in the books also

[DigificWriter]

^ I don't understand what distinction you're trying to make here.

 

As presented in the show, Moiraine clearly identifies to Egwene that 'listening to the wind' is Channelling. It might be untrained and subconscious Channelling, but it's still Channelling.

[TheDreadReader]

7 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

^ I think you might have a misconception about what a Plothole is.

 

Here's an example of an actual plothole from within the show:

Moiraine clearly identifying 'listening to the wind' - which she knows that both Nynaeve and Egwene can do - as being Channelling, yet outright stating that Nynaeve hadn't Channeled prior to her 'healing explosion'

 

These two things are not only incompatible with one another, they're incompatible with the Aes Sedai not being able to outright lie.

 

 

Yes and no.  You are correct (in my view) that it is a possible pot hole but it is also a resolvable one.

 

Given the nature of the three oaths, Moiraine's statement may be still be true if there is a set of conditions that exist in her head that she did not express verbally.   She never says Nynaeve that "had not channeled."  She said something like she didn't know.   But, what exactly did she not know?  

 

 

[Ralph]

7 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

^ I don't understand what distinction you're trying to make here.

 

As presented in the show, Moiraine clearly identifies to Egwene that 'listening to the wind' is Channelling. It might be untrained and subconscious Channelling, but it's still Channelling.

We don't see weaves when they listen on the bridge

 

I think it is an ability that uses the One Power, but not "Channeling" 

[DigificWriter]

Moiraine initiates her conversation with Egwene precisely because she (Moiraine) knows that she (Egwene) can Channel, and because she (Moiraine) has identified Egwene as a potential Dragon Reborn. She also explicitly identifies 'listening to the wind' as being Channeling to Egwene.

 

The plothole that emerges from that conversation is a result of Moiraine later stating - both in conversations with Lan and with other Aes Sedai - that she didn't know that Nynaeve could Channel, which is a lie based on the nature and purpose of her forest conversation with Egwene.

[Ralph]

I understand your point, but I am suggesting that "having the ability to learn to channel" and "being able to channel" are not the same thing. 

 

And Moiraine admits she suspected it

[chri5]

On 12/10/2021 at 3:50 PM, Spiritweaver1 said:

How would you characterize the following scenario's?

 

If it turns out Matt isn't cured of the dagger and there they were in TV with all the resources required for the permanent separation.  

 

Perrin entering the TV waygate with no weapon.

 

Perrin being called Young Bull by wolves when he gets so he can talk to them if that ever materializes.

1 - Lack of knowledge by Moiraine on how the taint at SL actually works. I can’t imagine too many have studied that particular problem. This doesn’t really seem like any of the error types you outlined. 

2 - He hasn’t had a weapon the whole time. Loial doesn’t have a weapon either. I don’t think this is in any of the categories you outlined unless he magically has a weapon when they exit. 
3 - Not sure since it hasn’t happened yet. 

[DigificWriter]

@Ralph I don't understand why you're trying to create a distinction between these things when the show itself did not, and would be genuinely interested in a more in-depth explanation.

[Spiritweaver1]

47 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

^ I think you might have a misconception about what a Plothole is.

 

Here's an example of an actual plothole from within the show:

Moiraine clearly identifying 'listening to the wind' - which she knows that both Nynaeve and Egwene can do - as being Channelling, yet outright stating that Nynaeve hadn't Channeled prior to her 'healing explosion'

 

These two things are not only incompatible with one another, they're incompatible with the Aes Sedai not being able to outright lie.

No argument from me that this is a plot hole.  My example was a nitpick designed to stimulate discussion.   

[Ralph]

18 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

@Ralph I don't understand why you're trying to create a distinction between these things when the show itself did not, and would be genuinely interested in a more in-depth explanation.

1) The question that Moiraine's statement contradicts the earlier scene is obvious.

 

2) I do not believe the team creating the show are stupid.

 

3) Therefore I do not believe they missed this obvious question. 

 

4) I can think of several possible answers. 

 

5) The best and simplest explanation in my opinion is that Moiraine mentioned "can Channel" and that this is different from "has the ability to Channel in the future". Normal Aes Sedai speak. 

 

6) Therefore I believe listening to the wind is a skill that is dependent on the ability to Channel, but is not Channeling. Or, "Channeling" means consciously focusing the One Power in weaves, and listening to the wind is not this. 

This is also consistent with the fact that we didn't see any wisps of the Power on the bridge. (though I admit I haven't found clear consistency in when it is visible and when not. Maybe after re watching I will.) 

 

7) Of course it has not been explained. Maybe it will be, maybe it won't. We will see. 

 

? But I would rather think of possible answers than WAFO, although it means I may be wrong. 

 

9) And I def prefer both to just stating it is a plot hole and unanswerable

Edited December 12, 2021 by Ralph

[Spiritweaver1]

So anybody care to foretell whether Moraine and Lan's horses magically show up on the journey into the blight?   I am sure readers recall the horses went into the Ways at Caemlyn.  Aldieb being white in the show should be easy to spot.  If so this will be very sloppy writing.  

[Ralph]

Just now, Spiritweaver1 said:

So anybody care to foretell whether Moraine and Lan's horses magically show up on the journey into the blight?   I am sure readers recall the horses went into the Ways at Caemlyn.  Aldieb being white in the show should be easy to spot.  If so this will be very sloppy writing.  

WAFO

[Spiritweaver1]

6 minutes ago, Ralph said:

1) The question that Moiraine's statement contradicts the earlier scene is obvious.

 

2) I do not believe the team creating the show are stupid.

 

3) Therefore I do not believe they missed this obvious question. 

 

4) I can think of several possible answers. 

 

5) The best and simplest explanation in my opinion is that Moiraine mentioned "can Channel" and that this is different from "has the ability to Channel in the future". Normal Aes Sedai speak. 

 

6) Therefore I believe listening to the wind is a skill that is dependent on the ability to Channel, but is not Channeling. Or, "Channeling" means consciously focusing the One Power in weaves, and listening to the wind is not this. 

 

7) Of course it had not been explained. Maybe it will be, maybe it won't. We will see. 

 

? But I would rather think of possible answers than WAFO, although it means I may be wrong. 

 

9) And I def prefer both to just stating it is a plot hole and unanswerable

  Even though I view myself as a big picture person I am cursed with an analytic streak.  It is always possible for fans to explain things in books or shows to mend the hole.   in my world if the mending isn't done in the book or show then it is still a hole.  Just my opinion of course.

[Ralph]

5 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

  Even though I view myself as a big picture person I am cursed with an analytic streak.  It is always possible for fans to explain things in books or shows to mend the hole.   in my world if the mending isn't done in the book or show then it is still a hole.  Just my opinion of course.

Ok

[DigificWriter]

@Ralph Thanks for answering my question. I personally don't think we as an audience are supposed to attribute the contradictions in Moiraine's behavior and statements with and to Egwene and her behavior and statements with and towards Lan, other Aes Sedai, and even Nynaeve herself as being anything other than contradictions, but you clearly aren't me.

 

With regards to whether or not we as an audience can use a lack of visible weaves to determine whether someone is Channelling in-universe, though, the show didn't visualize Liandrin's weaves when she caused a rockslide to cut off the escape of the male Channeler that she and her fellow Red Sisters were chasing at the beginning of Episode 1 even though we know that that's what she did, so we as an audience therefore can't definitively say that a lack of visual weaves means no Channeling from an out-of-universe perspective.

[Kudzu]

2 hours ago, Ralph said:

6) Therefore I believe listening to the wind is a skill that is dependent on the ability to Channel, but is not Channeling. Or, "Channeling" means consciously focusing the One Power in weaves, and listening to the wind is not this. 

This is also consistent with the fact that we didn't see any wisps of the Power on the bridge. (though I admit I haven't found clear consistency in when it is visible and when not. Maybe after re watching I will.) 

 

Right, Listening to the Wind is a Talent, like Foretelling, in fact you could even argue Listening to the Wind is a type of Foretelling. These Talent's only seem to manifest in Channelers, so it can be theorised they are of the One Power. But a person doesn't need to actively channel to use the talent. Nynaeve often has the sense a storm is coming while not actively Channeling is the books.

 

Also, we don't actually know Moiraine is aware Nynaeve can listen to the wind. It's reasonable to assume she does, but all we actually know is that Nynaeve tells Moiraine the previous Wisdom could, but doesn't say whether she can or not.

 

 

[Sabio]

In the book Moiriane says listening to the Wind is just Air and Water. 

 

 

[DigificWriter]

4 hours ago, Kudzu said:

Also, we don't actually know Moiraine is aware Nynaeve can listen to the wind. It's reasonable to assume she does, but all we actually know is that Nynaeve tells Moiraine the previous Wisdom could, but doesn't say whether she can or not.

 

Moiraine's conversation with Egwene makes no sense unless she (Moiraine) is aware that Egwene has been apprenticed by Nynaeve and is therefore learning how to 'listen to the wind', which means that she must likewise know that Nynaeve can 'listen to the wind' also, particularly since it is from Nynaeve that she learns that 'listening to the wind' is in fact Channelling in the first place.

[Kudzu]

5 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Moiraine's conversation with Egwene makes no sense unless she (Moiraine) is aware that Egwene has been apprenticed by Nynaeve and is therefore learning how to 'listen to the wind', which means that she must likewise know that Nynaeve can 'listen to the wind' also, particularly since it is from Nynaeve that she learns that 'listening to the wind' is in fact Channelling in the first place.

 

This is why I said it's reasonable to assume she does know. But I think the conversation makes sense self contained. Moiraine asked Egwene what they call it when woman can predict the weather. Egwene responds with "they listen to the wind". Moiraine then goes on the tell Egwene that it's actually the One Power. After they establish Egwene can channel Moiraine tells her she doesn't listen to the wind, the wind listen's to her. It can be in reference to their earlier conversation. She doesn't need to know Egwene is learning from Nynaeve.

[DigificWriter]

Without the pool cave confrontation with Nynaeve, Moiraine would not have possessed the knowledge about 'listening to the wind' being Channeling that she reveals to Egwene.

 

Therefore, Moiraine claiming ignorance of Nynaeve's ability to Channel upon her return to Tar Valon is directly contradictory to the information she gleaned from Nynaeve and later revealed to Egwene and flies directly in the face of Aes Sedai not being able to lie.

Edited December 13, 2021 by DigificWriter

[DaddyFinn]

16 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

Moiraine initiates her conversation with Egwene precisely because she (Moiraine) knows that she (Egwene) can Channel, and because she (Moiraine) has identified Egwene as a potential Dragon Reborn. She also explicitly identifies 'listening to the wind' as being Channeling to Egwene.

 

The plothole that emerges from that conversation is a result of Moiraine later stating - both in conversations with Lan and with other Aes Sedai - that she didn't know that Nynaeve could Channel, which is a lie based on the nature and purpose of her forest conversation with Egwene.

Sarah Nakamura confirmed on twitter that in the show women can't sense the ability in other women unless the other women are actively embracing saidar. Maybe Moiraine twisted the truth around that since Nynaeve had never emraced saidar in a situation where Moiraine could have sensed it? 

 

Edit. Moiraine said something like "I was unaware she(Nyn) can/could channel". Is that the same if she had said "I didn't know she can/could channel"? Can those mean different things?

Edited December 13, 2021 by DaddyFinn