What is the Dragon's name?

[lordofsoup]

This has been bothering me for 15+ years and I am finally asking it.  The Heroes of the Horn all are known by the name that their thread was bonded to the horn, Brigitte, Gaidal Cain, Artur Hawkwing, etc.   Then they have different names when they are spun out into the world.  However Hawkwing calls Rand Lews Therin.  Does this mean that Lews Therin is the original name of the Dragon?  I had kind of always just assumed that it was his birth name in his previous reincarnation.

[Arie]

I think the original name is Dragon. (looneytheory)

 

This may seem hilarity on the surface, but think about it. How often is it part of another name in some form......

[lordofsoup]

I'd believe it.  It's better than anything I have come up with. 

[Helz]

It stretches my mind a little bit but I feel like I remember words about the the dragon in previous ages. Lews Therin broke the world but I also wonder if the dragon pre-dates him. 

 

To the question Matts story is pertinent. After killing an evil greater than the dark one Artur Hawkwing had a conversation with Matt but I want to say he referred to him as the gambler or some such. Kinda makes me think that the referenced names are the lore people use to speak about the heroes of the horn while the thread itself is whats called. Rand and Lewis Therin could be seen as the current cycle of the threads of the dragon maybe?

 

Very interesting question imo..

[wotfan4472]

Artur Hawkwing called him Lews Therin, because that was the identity he lived as the last time Rand was born.

You saw Artur Hawkwing in that scene for precisely the same reason. Because, when a Hero is called by the Horn, that Hero will have the last physical form they were born with before the Horn was used.

Once Rand dies, he will be a Hero with that form, until he next shows up as the Dragon and is born back into the world.

[Sabio]

Artur mentioned how they have fought so many times and fought together so many times if he could only remember when he wore flesh.  So Artur remembered LTT from before. The heroes who aren't reborn (maybe all souls) remember everything.  It's when you get reborn you forget everything.  We saw that with Brigette, since she didn't get reborn but was torn back to the living, she remembered her past lives.  Could be LTT is now the name just everyone has attached to that soul for eternity.  

[Agitel]

The Heroes had their most recent names when they were called. Not their "original" names.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

12 hours ago, wotfan4472 said:

You saw Artur Hawkwing in that scene for precisely the same reason. Because, when a Hero is called by the Horn, that Hero will have the last physical form they were born with before the Horn was used.

 

7 hours ago, Agitel said:

The Heroes had their most recent names when they were called. Not their "original" names

Except that Birgitte and Gaidal had those names and forms (dating from age of legends) while Birgitte (who is the hero we know most about) had been spun out repeatedly since (for example she references to Elaine having been present for events during the Trolloc war - the story about an Aes'Sedai forced to bond a stubborn warder as punishment for bonding a different one while accepted and hating it which Elaine recognised as an epic love story).   

This suggests that the heroes appear as their most currently recognised archetype not as their most recent life.

[Helz]

Maybe its as simple as to say the threads are called by the horn and not the actual names?

 

The inconsistency's about names don't seem to add up to any coherent pattern.

 

Physical appearance might be consistent though. Bridget's love was said to have the appearance of a brute every time he was spun into the pattern which is something.

[Sabio]

Since the soul is tied to the horn, everyone must of had an original look and name at creation.  You would think you would go back to your original look, if you stay as your last look it would mean Hawkwing hasn't been spun out since his death.  Which would be a very long time (over a 1000 years of not being reborn once).  Or maybe it's as simple as you see what you want to see.

[Kalessin]

I've always been content with Drongo as the original name for Lews Therin Telamon aka Rand al'Thor, if only because he does act like one at least half the time.

[wotfan4472]

On 11/28/2021 at 4:47 PM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

 

Except that Birgitte and Gaidal had those names and forms (dating from age of legends) while Birgitte (who is the hero we know most about) had been spun out repeatedly since (for example she references to Elaine having been present for events during the Trolloc war - the story about an Aes'Sedai forced to bond a stubborn warder as punishment for bonding a different one while accepted and hating it which Elaine recognised as an epic love story).   

This suggests that the heroes appear as their most currently recognised archetype not as their most recent life.

Gaidal Cain and Brigette are exempt, because they have a purpose. As a result, they both have physical features that recur with each life, so they will be in the World Of Dreams how they showed up in the books between lives.

With all the other Heroes, my previous post in this thread is how they are between lives.

Gaidal and Brigette are both the exceptions that prove the rule, so to speak, when it comes to the Heroes Of The Horn.

Edited December 14, 2021 by wotfan4472

[Andra]

None of the Heroes of the Horn have just a single name.  Each has a new name when spun out into the living world, but each is recognized when they appear according to whatever name the witnesses associate with them.  As we see at Falme, other names are remembered when looking at some of them.

 

"But he heard a hundred names when he looked at each face, some so different he did not recognize them as names at all, though he knew they were.  Michael instead of Mikel.  Patrick instead of Paedrig.  Oscar instead of Otarin."

 

Any of those are just as much their names as any other.

 

For the Dragon, Lews Therin Telamon is one name.  Rand al'Thor is another.  We never hear of any others, but we know they exist(ed).

[Stedding Tofu]

On 12/14/2021 at 1:47 PM, wotfan4472 said:

Gaidal Cain and Brigette are exempt, because they have a purpose. As a result, they both have physical features that recur with each life

 

Why, though?  Surely the only soul with a defined purpose is that of the Champion of The Light, i.e. Rand al'Thor / Lews Therin Telamon / ad infinitum....

 

The most memorable life of the soul seems a plausible explanation for the physical characteristics in TAR and when the horn is sounded.  Birgitte appears as Birgitte Silverbow because that is more memorable than the other lives she tells Elayne about.  Artur Hawkwing appears as Artur Hawkwing because his achievements in that life outshone those in all his other incarnations when he rubbed shoulders with or fought "Lews Therin".

 

But that last is confusing to me in it's own right.  Why would the soul of Artur Hawkwing have all these memories of past lives where he fought against the champion of the light?  If The Wheel turns infinitely, all things are possible I guess and any scenario can be constructed including the champion of the light living lives in multiple ages without a conflict with The Dark One and just engaging in some good old human politicking and warfare.

 

Or simply RJ hadn't thought about it that much and wanted to give a feeling of a vast amount of time and a number of legends and stories bout heroes and picking Birgitte and Artur Hawkwing felt right.

 

On 11/27/2021 at 2:55 PM, wotfan4472 said:

Once Rand dies, he will be a Hero with that form, until he next shows up as the Dragon and is born back into the world.

 

Can the champion of the light be tied to the horn?  That feels like too much power. 

 

On 11/27/2021 at 4:34 AM, lordofsoup said:

However Hawkwing calls Rand Lews Therin.  Does this mean that Lews Therin is the original name of the Dragon?  I had kind of always just assumed that it was his birth name in his previous reincarnation.

 

I would agree with your assumption.  The soul of the champion of the light was born in this age as Rand al'Thor and in The Age of Legends as Lews Therin Telamon. In previous ages the champion would have had other names.

 

Hawkwing calling him LTT at a point in story when Rand is still refusing to accept who or what he is makes it clear to us and far harder for him to deny it.  He finally raises the Dragon Banner only after Falme and he still goes to Tear in TDR to test whether he really is "The One" but he's now heard it from a source other than Aes Sedai trying to manipulate him (as he sees it). 

[Nik]

On 4/29/2022 at 2:08 PM, Stedding Tofu said:

Can the champion of the light be tied to the horn?  That feels like too much power. 

 

Pretty sure this is canon. Both the dragon and the female alternative are heroes of the horn.

 

As for "original" names, that doesn't make sense with cyclical time. There is no beginning, so there is no original anything.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Nik

[Stedding Tofu]

17 hours ago, Nik said:

 

Pretty sure this is canon. Both the dragon and the female alternative are heroes of the horn.

 

Well if it's canon, then fair enough.  My problem with it is

 

1.  If The Champion must be born to oppose and re-imprison The Dark One then there's no way he will ever be called by the horn, at least not at any age's "Last Battle".  The purpose of the horn is to call heroes to fight in those Last Battles so there's no point in him being tied to it if he will always be a no show.  In other words he has a defined role that is incompatible with the purpose of the horn, so, e.g. (and to use the obvious to illustrate my point) Moiraine and Siuan initially intend for Rand to have and to blow the horn not to be summoned by it.

 

2.  The ability to channel is tied to the soul so unless the horn is always kept out of circulation until each Last Battle approaches whoever has it has unimaginable power. Imagine the Shaido or Sharans being able to summon not just the heroes of the horn but the Creator's Champion to demolish their opponents for them.  We get a taste of that at Falme and the heroes aren't picky about who they fight as long as someone has a banner.  The Creator's Champion could end up being the most destructive force in the world and free will has no bearing on it.  I know that's a problem with the horn in general but tying the Creator's Champion to it seems too much power.

 

17 hours ago, Nik said:

 

As for "original" names, that doesn't make sense with cyclical time. There is no beginning, so there is no original anything.

 

True but that's a paradox of the nature of non-linear time and the idea of reincarnation.  The heroes have to do something to become tied to the horn versus they have always been tied to it.  Does Noal / Jain Farstrider become tied to the horn because of his actions or was his soul always tied to the horn and Jain was merely an incarnation of that soul?

 

If the heroes have always been tied to the horn then the name they are known by could be better thought of as the current age's memory of their most significant recent past life (Birgitte) rather than the "original".  The two would be thought of as the same in universe.  I don't really like the idea of the heroes as an eternally closed group of superheroes that ordinary men and women can't be elevated to because of acts of great heroism.  So Noal/Jain or Artur Hawkwing didn't become tied to the horn because of their actions (and no one can) but did great things in life because they were already heroes.  I much prefer the idea of Jain being a man / soul who becomes tied to the horn because of what he did in this life he lived.

 

Souls are eternal, individual live and names are unique.  Lews Therin was named dragon and Rand was the one prophesied to be the dragon reborn.  Maybe in the next age they will remember Rand as the sheepherder before he or the dragon are completely forgotten and the next turning of the wheel brings new legends and names.  The heroes will have been forgotten so to avoid the souls of Hawkwing, Birgitte or Jain appearing as complete strangers they would have to appear as the most recently memorable incarnations of those souls.  That seems a bit of a cheat to me and new heroes arising because heroic lives were lived that linked new souls to the horn and "released" those from the previous turning of the wheel feels better in terms of free will and agency. 

 

Whether or no it works that way I don't know but each turning of he wheel is seven ages and we only get a window on the 2nd (AoL) and the 3rd with a bare hint of portal stones being a remnant from the 1st.

[Aan-Alone]

On 5/6/2022 at 8:44 AM, Stedding Tofu said:

the heroes aren't picky about who they fight

I seem to recall Hawkwing directly disputing this, in tGH or AMoL, where he specifically states, or otherwise implies that, Heroes don't fight for the shadow.

 

I believe the idea that agents of shadow blowing the horn and calling forth Heroes comes from ''unreliable sources'. Shadow agents can withhold the Horn from the Light's forces, preventing the Light from summoning Heroes.

[Bugglesley]

On 5/6/2022 at 7:44 AM, Stedding Tofu said:

 

Well if it's canon, then fair enough.  My problem with it is

 

1.  If The Champion must be born to oppose and re-imprison The Dark One then there's no way he will ever be called by the horn, at least not at any age's "Last Battle".  The purpose of the horn is to call heroes to fight in those Last Battles so there's no point in him being tied to it if he will always be a no show.  In other words he has a defined role that is incompatible with the purpose of the horn, so, e.g. (and to use the obvious to illustrate my point) Moiraine and Siuan initially intend for Rand to have and to blow the horn not to be summoned by it.

 

2.  The ability to channel is tied to the soul so unless the horn is always kept out of circulation until each Last Battle approaches whoever has it has unimaginable power. Imagine the Shaido or Sharans being able to summon not just the heroes of the horn but the Creator's Champion to demolish their opponents for them.  We get a taste of that at Falme and the heroes aren't picky about who they fight as long as someone has a banner.  The Creator's Champion could end up being the most destructive force in the world and free will has no bearing on it.  I know that's a problem with the horn in general but tying the Creator's Champion to it seems too much power.

 

 

True but that's a paradox of the nature of non-linear time and the idea of reincarnation.  The heroes have to do something to become tied to the horn versus they have always been tied to it.  Does Noal / Jain Farstrider become tied to the horn because of his actions or was his soul always tied to the horn and Jain was merely an incarnation of that soul?

 

If the heroes have always been tied to the horn then the name they are known by could be better thought of as the current age's memory of their most significant recent past life (Birgitte) rather than the "original".  The two would be thought of as the same in universe.  I don't really like the idea of the heroes as an eternally closed group of superheroes that ordinary men and women can't be elevated to because of acts of great heroism.  So Noal/Jain or Artur Hawkwing didn't become tied to the horn because of their actions (and no one can) but did great things in life because they were already heroes.  I much prefer the idea of Jain being a man / soul who becomes tied to the horn because of what he did in this life he lived.

 

Souls are eternal, individual live and names are unique.  Lews Therin was named dragon and Rand was the one prophesied to be the dragon reborn.  Maybe in the next age they will remember Rand as the sheepherder before he or the dragon are completely forgotten and the next turning of the wheel brings new legends and names.  The heroes will have been forgotten so to avoid the souls of Hawkwing, Birgitte or Jain appearing as complete strangers they would have to appear as the most recently memorable incarnations of those souls.  That seems a bit of a cheat to me and new heroes arising because heroic lives were lived that linked new souls to the horn and "released" those from the previous turning of the wheel feels better in terms of free will and agency. 

 

Whether or no it works that way I don't know but each turning of he wheel is seven ages and we only get a window on the 2nd (AoL) and the 3rd with a bare hint of portal stones being a remnant from the 1st.

 

I think 1. is probably spot-on, the quote from Hawking Aan-Alone mentioned is:

 "The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters. You are here. The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon."

 

I think 2. is largely also wiped out by that quote. The heroes pop out, go "hey where's the Dragon," and nothing happens. It's not an I win button for anyone except for the Chosen One when Ages are coming to an end.

 

When it comes to Jain/Noel--what's to say that this isn't the life that tied him to the Horn, (as he always has been)? When you think about it too hard, it also starts falling squarely into paradox territory as well. If you think way too hard you start to wonder if, over timeframes approaching infinity, "you can earn your way onto the Horn roster" results in every living soul being tied to the Horn. That's silly so let's not.

 

On a much broader level, I think the best way to think about it is that the mechanics of the Wheel and Pattern more generally are something that the Horn taps into, not that the Horn is driving this. RJ mentioned in a blog post "For Randshammer, you might say that mortals made the Horn of Valere. They certainly weren't gods." The Horn is some kind of extra-ultra magic from Legends of Ages of Legends ago, that manages to pull out important threads that aren't currently in the Pattern to fight. It doesn't create their reincarnation or name them heroes, really, it just grabs threads that are already come around over and over and that are super strong.

 

And with that, I buy the argument that the exact names can and will shift over time. Hawkwing calls Rand "the Dragon and "Lews Therin," but like.. he's a baby! Hawkwing's Empire happened 2,000 years after the Breaking, he's way closer to our heroes than LTT is in terms of lifetime. How can "Hawkwing" remember working with "Lews Therin," when LTT died 2,000 years before Hawkwing was born? Simple--they're using the last known name of the threads, but the threads are eternal types more than individuals. Hawkwing is the Leader, Mat is the Gambler, Rand/LTT is the Dragon, Brigitte is the Archer, etc etc. The Leader, under some other name, led the heroes of the horn when LTT called them, but his last famous incarnation was as Hawkwing so that's what he is called in this narrative. And RJ leans into this in lots of ways--one of the ones that really baked my potato was realizing that in another Turning, we would call Mat Odin.

 

By the by that's one of my favorite little RJ things, the difference between "ancient" and "ancient," like how we're closer now to Caesar conquering the land around the pyramids than he was to them being built in the first place. Mat's memories from the Trolloc Wars and the general post-breaking dark ages also predate Hawkwing's birth... by another 1,000 years! Or the moment Cadsuane realizes she actually has more actual life experience than Semirhage, because she's been in suspended animation for 3,000 years and was "only" a few hundred when she went in. The Horn smushes it all together into "ancient," but you still see those differences.

Edited March 9 by Bugglesley

[Aan-Alone]

On 4/29/2022 at 2:08 PM, Stedding Tofu said:

If The Wheel turns infinitely, all things are possible I guess and any scenario can be constructed including the champion of the light living lives in multiple ages without a conflict with The Dark One and just engaging in some good old human politicking and warfare.

The Wheel turns forever, but the Pattern doesn't have an infinite number of variations. At least one outcome has been removed from the infinite set of possibilities [the outcome(s) where the DO wins.

I would think editing the set of possible possibilities for the Pattern would have consequences...or meaning.

 

Wildly extrapolating, I feel that one consequence is that there is no rest for the Light's Champion. Whenever this particular Soul is spun out, they and the DO will be throwing down in some fashion. And sometimes the LC makes poor decisions which sometimes lead to the LC serving the Shadow. I believe this is how AH recalls fighting against LTT. Context of their conversation is why.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

I'd be hesitant to go with the Champion fighting for the DO. That seems too much like believing Ishamael's lies from tEotW. Or should we just believe him? 

 

The heroes can be spun out during End of Age malarkies, take Brigitte at the end of the second Age, and even Gaidal Cain being spun out so took no part in the end of the third Age, as a thread in the pattern or as a Hero. Hawkwing was under the thumb of the Shadow last life, so I would say it makes more sense that if spun out at the same time as the Champion that they often were in conflict. They are about restoring balance, not ensuring the complete victory of the Light. 

[Aan-Alone]

Some of the best lies are constructed around truths. However, I see your point. If the LC is also Ta'veren, then the Pattern might prevent them from joining the Shadow.

 

As for Hawkwing's statement on opposing LTT on the field of combat, I always read that as if Hawking were speaking as the Heroes' commander, not so much as a personal comment on Hawkwing' past lives. Again, context of the conversation was my reasoning. I could always be mistaken. My perspective seems more dramatic, and should probably be more suspect because of it.

 

And yes, I believed Ishmael. To me, he was the type of villian who made more use of truths than lies. I admit I could be way off-base in my assessment. Did he ever actually, flat-out, lie to Rand? I honestly don't remember.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

That is kind of difficult to say. 

 

Thinking, thinking. Well, as Ba'alzamon. he told all three Emond's Field boys that he knew who they were and the Eye would never serve them. Owing to the fact, he didn't actually know which was the Dragon Reborn, that would have to go down as a lie, though not to Rand, there he was actually correct 🙂

 

What about the Tower will try to use you? That could be seen as manipulating the truth, but he seemed to more than imply that the Tower would not be about winning the last battle only. Though, that could all be put down to insinuation. 

 

Certainly I don't think there is anything in Ishamael's character that we should trust - all his good qualities (if there were any left in Ba'alzamon) - were entirely secondary to his hopes of ending suffering by breaking the wheel. If he would sell his soul, cause so much suffering through thousands of years, he would not be above telling whatever he thought would be the most effective lie to gain the breaking of the wheel. What people will do for the greater good, huh?

[Bugglesley]

On 3/15/2024 at 5:25 PM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

That is kind of difficult to say. 

 

Thinking, thinking. Well, as Ba'alzamon. he told all three Emond's Field boys that he knew who they were and the Eye would never serve them. Owing to the fact, he didn't actually know which was the Dragon Reborn, that would have to go down as a lie, though not to Rand, there he was actually correct 🙂

 

What about the Tower will try to use you? That could be seen as manipulating the truth, but he seemed to more than imply that the Tower would not be about winning the last battle only. Though, that could all be put down to insinuation. 

 

Certainly I don't think there is anything in Ishamael's character that we should trust - all his good qualities (if there were any left in Ba'alzamon) - were entirely secondary to his hopes of ending suffering by breaking the wheel. If he would sell his soul, cause so much suffering through thousands of years, he would not be above telling whatever he thought would be the most effective lie to gain the breaking of the wheel. What people will do for the greater good, huh?

 

The simplest answer of all is that he wasn't lying, he was just wrong.

 

Yes, the wheel will keep turning. Yes, people will keep suffering. Yes, the world will be broken an infinite number of times, the Dragon/Champion of Light will have to go through this over and over and over again. And then some more. Forever.

 

According to RJ/BS, the correct answer is to say "yes, and that's life, and we will try our best to do better every time." The incorrect answer is to be a coward and say "if it can never be perfect, we should end it all forever."

 

Add to this:  it's not common to "remember" your past lives (after all, in the fiction of WoT, one of us on this very forum could carry the soul of any of our favorite characters). Ishy, personally, wasn't really tied to the wheel, just the Dark One. He personally had lived 3 lives over and above the other Forsaken (waking up to mess around in the Trolloc Wars and the Hawkwing days), and his mind was completely broken. He wanted to stop existing, and if the only way to do that is to make everything stop existing he was OK with this. He wasn't lying, he was just extremely selfish and in unbearable agony.

[wotfan4472]

On 4/30/2022 at 6:08 AM, Stedding Tofu said:

 

Why, though? 

The reason they are both exempt, is because they are both consistently spun out into the world.

In fact, Birgitte states that this was the longest she and Gaidal had spent in The World Of Dreams between lives together. 

 

As for all the other Heroes? Mat remembers dying with Artur Hawkwing looking down on him, from the memories the Finns gave him.

Mat knew it was Artur, because he saw him in Falme after he blew the Horn. In the exact same body form each time.

Edited April 3 by wotfan4472