How did the show hold up for you?

[notpropaganda73]

On 8/3/2022 at 9:54 AM, DojoToad said:

I think it depends how invested you are.

 

For example - I'm a huge fan of the MCU movies and find very little wrong with them.  But I have never read a comic book in my life.  If I had been a big Marvel fan for decades, I probably would have found lots of areas for tweaks.

 

But having read the WoT books repeatedly, I see all kinds of stuff to change that would have made a better show - from my perspective.

 

Is this still true for the latest movies out of interest? I think they've really dipped in quality since Endgame. Outside of Shang-Chi, Wandavision & Loki, I've been pretty disappointed so far.  Although I'm super excited for Black Panther 2. 

[notpropaganda73]

On 8/2/2022 at 7:13 PM, Elder_Haman said:

I think this is the heart of the problem for me too, though for slightly different reasons. They didn't do enough to set up what a big deal the Dragon is. The male/female thing could have worked if they'd really made it clear why the Dragon matters so much. But all we got was the Rosamund voiceover.

 

If they would have started where they should have - the Blood Snow scene cut together with Gitara's foretelling, followed by a similar voiceover saying she'd been sent out to find the child - the subsequent "mystery" would have had a far better punch.

 

The other thing would be to add in some dialogue among the Emond's Fielders to show genuine concern about Logain being the Dragon and how awful that would be for the world (a perfect place for Cenn Buie). Following that up with some questions of Moiraine about Logain's threat (which would have made for a better Nynaeve/Moraine confrontation), during which Moiraine reveals that Logain can't be the Dragon - he's too old - and suddenly you have stakes. 

 

So many little tweaks here and there could have made this show 100x better. 

 

Linked to this is the lack of dreams. I was like a broken record on here when the show aired. If they had given us more dreams it would have built the danger from the Dark One as well as the mystery, because Ba'alzamon didn't know who the Dragon was either. 

 

I think the show did a good job at worldbuilding overall but it did a bad job at probably the most important core thing from the Wheel of Time -the fear around the Dragon and what them being reborn means for the world. 

 

But there was enough good for me to still be optimistic and excited for S2. I said at the time that S1 was around a 7 out of 10 for me and that hasn't changed. The good bits from S1 were really really good. 

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

Is this still true for the latest movies out of interest? I think they've really dipped in quality since Endgame. Outside of Shang-Chi, Wandavision & Loki, I've been pretty disappointed so far.  Although I'm super excited for Black Panther 2. 

Shang-Chi is the only one I've seen since Endgame.  The first Black Panther is number one or two for me of the originals.  Killmonger was a very believable villain.

 

And I didn't like all the 'originals' either.  The Thor movies got progressively too silly for me.  Didn't care for Guardians of the Galaxy at all.  Ironman stand-alones went downhill after the first.  Liked a lot of the Spiderman and Captain America.  Didn't see any of the Hulk movies.  Guess I should have been more specific.  I think they did a great job with the compilation Avenger movies - with Infinity War probably being my favorite.

Edited August 5, 2022 by DojoToad

[nsmallw]

3 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

Linked to this is the lack of dreams. I was like a broken record on here when the show aired. If they had given us more dreams it would have built the danger from the Dark One as well as the mystery, because Ba'alzamon didn't know who the Dragon was either. 

I was going to make a post about the lack of dream sequences in season 1. If I recall there were only 3? and one for each of the boys. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this one. Don't recall one for either of the women which considering the whole "Who is the Dragon?" mystery was odd to me. 

Is there a fuller discussion of the lack of dreaming in the show ? Thanks. 

[DojoToad]

9 minutes ago, nsmallw said:

I was going to make a post about the lack of dream sequences in season 1. If I recall there were only 3? and one for each of the boys. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this one. Don't recall one for either of the women which considering the whole "Who is the Dragon?" mystery was odd to me. 

Is there a fuller discussion of the lack of dreaming in the show ? Thanks. 

They needed more room for Stepin's arc...

[notpropaganda73]

1 hour ago, nsmallw said:

I was going to make a post about the lack of dream sequences in season 1. If I recall there were only 3? and one for each of the boys. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this one. Don't recall one for either of the women which considering the whole "Who is the Dragon?" mystery was odd to me. 

Is there a fuller discussion of the lack of dreaming in the show ? Thanks. 

I don't remember a specific topic being made about it, I know I just mentioned it from time to time in different posts and then when we had the full season to review, it was so obvious to me that they missed an opportunity to develop the "mystery" as well as heighten the danger related to the DO. 

 

Like so many people had an issue with them making the identity of the Dragon a mystery in the first place, but then they went away from the fact the DO doesn't know who the Dragon is either which would've been a great device to use for that very purpose. Anyways, we got what we got 

[notpropaganda73]

5 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Shang-Chi is the only one I've seen since Endgame.  The first Black Panther is number one or two for me of the originals.  Killmonger was a very believable villain.

 

And I didn't like all the 'originals' either.  The Thor movies got progressively too silly for me.  Didn't care for Guardians of the Galaxy at all.  Ironman stand-alones went downhill after the first.  Liked a lot of the Spiderman and Captain America.  Didn't see any of the Hulk movies.  Guess I should have been more specific.  I think they did a great job with the compilation Avenger movies - with Infinity War probably being my favorite.

 

Ah I get you, yeah the Avengers films, especially the first one and then Infinity War & Endgame, did an incredible job of bringing so many characters together and having the audience fully invested. Agreed on Killmonger as well, though it frustrated me that he suffered the same MCU fate of other villains (one and done). 

[WhiteVeils]

On 8/5/2022 at 9:24 AM, nsmallw said:

I was going to make a post about the lack of dream sequences in season 1. If I recall there were only 3? and one for each of the boys. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this one. Don't recall one for either of the women which considering the whole "Who is the Dragon?" mystery was odd to me. 

Is there a fuller discussion of the lack of dreaming in the show ? Thanks. 

Mat didn't have a dream sequence, and Rand had his 2 + 3ish?

 

I think dreaming is very very tricky to include much of, especially early on. It would be very cheesy to a non-reader audience if there was too much of it.  It already had a fair start and we'll get more.  Those dream-related arcs just haven't started yet, and may not really move in earnest until S4 with just hints in S2 and more in S3.

[Nik]

10 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

Mat didn't have a dream sequence, and Rand had his 2 + 3ish?

 

I think dreaming is very very tricky to include much of, especially early on. It would be very cheesy to a non-reader audience if there was too much of it.  It already had a fair start and we'll get more.  Those dream-related arcs just haven't started yet, and may not really move in earnest until S4 with just hints in S2 and more in S3.

Rand had 2 + the one in the Blight, Perrin had 1. We didn't see anyone else's dreams. I agree it would have been hard to include more with the time and scope they had.

[Andra]

6 hours ago, Nik said:

Rand had 2 + the one in the Blight, Perrin had 1. We didn't see anyone else's dreams. I agree it would have been hard to include more with the time and scope they had.

Perrin had the one where the wolf was eating Laila's corpse.  Supposedly, all three shared the dream with the dead bats.  I don't remember what Rand dreamed himself prior to the Blight.

I think Mat's hallucination of vomiting up darkness might count, except that it would have been produced by the dagger rather than Ba'alzamon.

[Nik]

Yes it's implied they all had the bat dream (with slight variations) but we only see Rand's. Rand also has the dream at the farmhouse where he sees Perrin hammering a corpse, Mat with a bloody hand and Egwene being captured by Ishy. It's possible we're meant to assume it was a shared dream as well.

[DojoToad]

6 hours ago, Nik said:

Yes it's implied they all had the bat dream (with slight variations) but we only see Rand's. Rand also has the dream at the farmhouse where he sees Perrin hammering a corpse, Mat with a bloody hand and Egwene being captured by Ishy. It's possible we're meant to assume it was a shared dream as well.

Assuming is always a safe way to ensure the audience is on the same page...

 

Remember that the show was not made for the book readers, and that most of the viewers won't know how prevalent the dreams were in the source material.  Maybe the dreams will be more obvious in S2?

[Nik]

6 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Assuming is always a safe way to ensure the audience is on the same page...

 

Remember that the show was not made for the book readers, and that most of the viewers won't know how prevalent the dreams were in the source material.  Maybe the dreams will be more obvious in S2?

I mean I don't really see it as an issue. We had enough dreams go know they're a thing and "the Dark One" can enter them. We'll learn more when it's relevant to the plot. And it will probably make the show very rewatchable.

[DaddyFinn]

I was fine with how little we got Ishamael's evil monologues. It was always so childishly cliche in the books

[bluetear111]

Overall i think they did a decent job on the show, however id love to know the % of people who haven't read the books, who like the show as just casual viewers of tv? Compared to fans of the books then watching the show?

 

But for me personally the show piqued my interest for me to start reading the books, so it won me around.

 

I don't agree with everything the show did though, i would have liked more of a build up/payoff of when they visit shadar logoth in episode 2 is it i think? This felt far too rushed and thought it missed out on a lot of tension that they could have built, because i loved this chapter in eotw. And although i completely understand why they changed the end of eye of the world, they could have came up with something better than what we got? surely?

 

I was not sure how i felt with all of the channelers taking out the trolloc army, behind their own forces once they were all killed, and the horn also being buried under the throne? I know they need devices to speed the show along, but it just felt a bit jarring to me. Padan Fain is great though.

[DaddyFinn]

2 hours ago, bluetear111 said:

And although i completely understand why they changed the end of eye of the world, they could have came up with something better than what we got? surely?

 

I was not sure how i felt with all of the channelers taking out the trolloc army, behind their own forces once they were all killed, and the horn also being buried under the throne? I know they need devices to speed the show along, but it just felt a bit jarring to me

They had it planned and written differently but Covid and Barney's leaving changed a lot. Fain should have confronted Mat instead of Perrin. Shadowspawn had to be CGI and the battle spaced out per covid restrictions (2 meter distance between actors for example). Original battle was more open IIRC with the Shienaran cavalry actually fighting the horde. Nynaeve's resurrection was supposed to be more like CPR and other skills (they were obviously cut) Egwene learned from Nynaeve in earlier episodes. The changes affect S2 to some degree but hopefully not too much.

 

Burn you, Covid!

[bluetear111]

29 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

They had it planned and written differently but Covid and Barney's leaving changed a lot. Fain should have confronted Mat instead of Perrin. Shadowspawn had to be CGI and the battle spaced out per covid restrictions (2 meter distance between actors for example). Original battle was more open IIRC with the Shienaran cavalry actually fighting the horde. Nynaeve's resurrection was supposed to be more like CPR and other skills (they were obviously cut) Egwene learned from Nynaeve in earlier episodes. The changes affect S2 to some degree but hopefully not too much.

 

Burn you, Covid!

On that note do we know why Barney left yet? I thought it was a shame I thought he played mat quite well!

[DaddyFinn]

52 minutes ago, bluetear111 said:

On that note do we know why Barney left yet? I thought it was a shame I thought he played mat quite well!

No public statement has been made

[DojoToad]

I liked Barney as well. Too bad about him leaving for sure. 

[Pumbaa]

actor with brightest performance left the show and all the changes ruined it for me. some bright moments, but disappointment overall. great opportunity missed imo.

[Jake Sykwalker]

On 8/3/2022 at 3:54 AM, DojoToad said:

I think it depends how invested you are.

 

For example - I'm a huge fan of the MCU movies and find very little wrong with them.  But I have never read a comic book in my life.  If I had been a big Marvel fan for decades, I probably would have found lots of areas for tweaks.

 

But having read the WoT books repeatedly, I see all kinds of stuff to change that would have made a better show - from my perspective.

 

It is a bit different for comic books.  There isn't usually one author for an entire run of a character so they change quite a bit over their lifespan.  If they get the essence of the character right they are usually doing ok.  For Marvel they Captured the essence of Captain America and Iron Man very well.  That is one of the reasons they did so well with their earlier phases.

 

They captured the Hulk less well, but not so bad it was distracting.  IMHO I find Ruffalo's hulk to be the weakest adaption of any on screen.  He doesn't capture the essence of Dr. Banner at all.  Even Eric Bana who didn't fit Bruce Banner because he was too athletic did a better job.  IMHO Ed Norton nailed it and am disappointed they went a different direction for the  MCU.  Not only is he a much better actor than Ruffalo, he seemed to understand the Hulk character better.  Still waiting for Betty Banner to show up at some point.  

 

They nailed Thor in his solo movie, but have gotten worse on every solo movie after that.  Haven't seen the most recent one.  Guardians of the Galaxy were also much different than their comics, but captured the characters well enough and told a good enough story to be entertaining.  They did a bad job with Drax who is basically a revenant bent on getting revenge for his family.  They basically turned him into comic relief.  I blame that on choosing an actor who can't really act.  Nothing against Bautista, but he won't ever be doing Shakespeare.  

 

D.C. did a decent job of changing a character but retaining a good story with Aquaman.  He is quite different than his book counterpart, but still very interesting and carries on the same angst of displaced prince/king of Atlantis.  Granted my only reading of the Aquaman comics are a Peter David run in the 90s.  

 

When you are adapting characters you have a much easier job as you just want to make them act in character.  When you are adapting a specific story you have a much harder challenge.

 

A good example is the Age of Ultron.  Usually thought of as one of if not the weakest of the Avenger's movies.  There was an Age of Ultron crossover in the comics.  As bad as people thought the movie was (I thought it was ok) the comics were much worse.  The movie only really borrowed the name and the Villain from that story and I doubt many fans are complaining about it.  

 

The reason is the AoU comic event was not very good.  It was a mess and paled against other crossovers like The House of M.  That is what Wandavision was very loosely based on.  It also featured a much tighter and focused storyline and James Spader did an outstanding job on Ultron.  Loose adaptations if done right can be successful.

[Miika]

On 8/8/2022 at 5:52 AM, WhiteVeils said:

Those dream-related arcs just haven't started yet, and may not really move in earnest until S4 with just hints in S2 and more in S3.

Rand's journey to Falme and after that to Tear should be riddled with dreams. After all he does think he killed the Dark One in Falme because that's what dreams implied Ishamael was. Also I think the constant dreams and mistrust it causes nicely shapes him for the following events.

[Miika]

On 8/10/2022 at 11:27 PM, Pumbaa said:

actor with brightest performance left the show and all the changes ruined it for me. some bright moments, but disappointment overall. great opportunity missed imo.

I think he was perfectly cast. We'll see how they bring the new actor in to the fold with all the missing pieces of Mat.

[Maximillion]

Watching House of the Dragon this week brought into sharp focus just how bad WoT was written and paced - as well as showing up the lack of scale in WoT.

 

HOTD has many modern day social elements included that some people complain about in TV shows (especially WoT), but it was excellent anyway.  The story is brought screen really well and the scale just seems so much bigger and better done.  Just shows what good writing, directing, editing and effects can do.  Hopefully they raid the team from top to bottom on HOTD and put them to work trying to salvage WoT!

 

Edited August 26, 2022 by Maximillion

[VooDooNut]

44 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

Watching House of the Dragon this week brought into sharp focus just how bad WoT was written and paced - as well as showing up the lack of scale in WoT.

 

HOTD has many modern day social elements included that some people complain about in TV shows (especially WoT), but it was excellent anyway.  The story is brought screen really well and the scale just seems so much bigger and better done.  Just shows what good writing, directing, editing and effects can do.  Hopefully they raid the team from top to bottom on HOTD and put them to work trying to salvage WoT!

 

I disagree.

 

What was the best part of HOTD? Was it the

Spoiler

useless 10 minute orgy scene?

Or maybe

Spoiler

the mutilation and full-frame castration of peasants

?
Mayhaps the ridiculous

Spoiler

birthing process and cesarean section

appealed to you?

I'd rather watch WOT going a little over the top with a feminist focus than watch, imo, the worst parts of Game of Thrones rehashed in a prequel. Yes, the set and costume design was well done for HOTD, but it feels like a bouquet of roses trying to cover up the stench of overdone sexual and violent themes.