How did the show hold up for you?

[EmreY]

15 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

No but at least call him always Phoenix: there seems to be no double-check of stuff in this show, everything feels so sloppy and not carefully crafted.

 

I get your point.  And I apologise because mine was a facetious comment.

 

But, on another point (which I should have made earlier instead of being flip) it is entirely possible that LTT is indeed the Dragon Reborn, except its meaning in the Second Age is different to the Third.  Presumably, there have been turnings of the wheel before, so presumably another version of the Second Age?

Edited January 3, 2022 by EmreY

[Ralph]

33 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

From the books it make sense that the name Dragon was the only thing left of the memory of LTT but still don't explain him called DR reborn in the ep8 and Dragon at the beginning.

 

Furthermore the phrases in the show  changes completely the background by adding the arrogant men part to what you posted. 

 

Sure. And I agree with both of these points. 

 

But your point that they changed the lore by implying the name was given after the Breaking is not correct, because that wording is exactly as in the books

[Elendir]

49 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

"And the Shadow fell upon the Land, and the World was riven stone from stone. The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up, and the nations were scattered to the eight corners of the World. The moon was as blood, and the sun was as ashes. The seas boiled, and the living envied the dead. All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World.

And him they named Dragon."
   — From Aleth nin Taerin alta Camora, The Breaking of the World. Author unknown, the Fourth Age

 

I just want to point out for you to the information about the author of the quote.

R. Jordan often played with the confusion of the message over time in these quotes.

The author of this quote was therefore based only on legends, not on direct testimonies or historical facts.

[EmreY]

Yes, the arrogance of men seems to be a little unfair, especially given equal responsibility for the Bore.

[Ralph]

4 minutes ago, Elendir said:

 

I just want to point out for you to the information about the author of the quote.

R. Jordan often played with the confusion of the message over time in these quotes.

The author of this quote was therefore based only on legends, not on direct testimonies or historical facts.

Sure. But is Moiraine's voice over supposed to be more reliable? 

[Elendir]

16 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Sure. But is Moiraine's voice over supposed to be more reliable? 

 

And it's the TV show writers who put it in Moiraine's mouth.

Book Moiraine would be more careful in literal interpretation of legends.

[Dew21]

I've been a fan of these books since Jordan began writing them, and have been anticipating this show for years.  I think that the only way that you could possibly like this show is if you DIDN'T read the books.  I've gone out of my way to talk to people that didn't read them and see what they thought of the show.  All of their responses have been it's ok.  Mediocre at best.  My cousin (who has read the first 4 books) texted me and just said "It's hard to watch".

Why bother to make something if you are going to change it so much?  These shows don't reflect the books.  There are so many bad Syfy and fantasy shows and movies out there that I have to believe that these writers could have come up with something other than the WoT series to ruin.  And they couldn't have thought that a true fan of the books would even be able to stomach what they've put together.  It's not the source material.  It's not the acting or the casting (although I was a little disappointed in the way they made up Loial.  The actor's voice is great....but are these smaller versions of the Ogier from Jamaica?).  It's not the special effects and definitely not the locations.....It's THE CREATORS AND WRITERS......and whatever agenda they are trying to promote. 

All they've done is piss off the real fans.  And I can't understand why you would want to do that to 90 million built in watchers.  Anyone heard of Peter Jackson?  Sure he changed a couple things, but he was so close to most of the source material that the most of the fans LOVED those movies.  

The only thing I can hope for out of this is that this series will be forgotten in 5 to 10 years, and sometime before I die, I will be able to watch a Wheel of Time series done well.  

[EmreY]

2 hours ago, Dew21 said:

I think that the only way that you could possibly like this show is if you DIDN'T read the books.

 

All you have to do is look across the forums to see that this is not the case.

 

2 hours ago, Dew21 said:

Why bother to make something if you are going to change it so much?

 

Changed for the worse, presumably? Your opinion, of course.

 

2 hours ago, Dew21 said:

are these smaller versions of the Ogier

 

No.  But you need to construct two sets (or parts of two sets), as well as very specific furniture, gantries, rails and cameras if you want to sell the size differences that exist in the books.  Or do everything CGI.

 

2 hours ago, Dew21 said:

It's not the special effects and definitely not the locations.....It's THE CREATORS AND WRITERS

 

Not always, as mentioned immediately above.

 

2 hours ago, Dew21 said:

whatever agenda they are trying to promote.

 

Do you mean maximising earnings from across as many different markets as possible?

 

2 hours ago, Dew21 said:

Anyone heard of Peter Jackson?

 

Yes.  Right now across at TORN they are still discussing whether he even read the books.  And even if that is rather silly, you do realise he costs a little more than Rafe and would require greater financial commitment?

 

2 hours ago, Dew21 said:

Sure he changed a couple things

 

We were in fact having just this discussion here:  You might find some people disagree with you.

 

2 hours ago, Dew21 said:

but he was so close to most of the source material that the most of the fans LOVED those movies

 

Actually, it varied.  But most LoTR fans decided to live and let live.

 

2 hours ago, Dew21 said:

The only thing I can hope for out of this is that this series will be forgotten in 5 to 10 years, and sometime before I die, I will be able to watch a Wheel of Time series done well

 

It will likely be produced in China or India, and adapted to their sensibilities. ? 

 

 

Edited January 3, 2022 by EmreY

[Mike Grier]

I'm definitely in the camp that thinks that it's an atrocity if the majority of writers are not intimately familiar with the source material. Otherwise, even calling it "based on" is a stretch.

 

That said, truly, what matters usually is the show's bible. I don't know how this process always works but at least in the Star Trek universe, there was a seasonal bible which would call out any new canon (since canon was important) and how to write to it. As was called out, writers do just have jobs and work for managers and theoretically at least follow the bibles/guidelines.

 

I'd really like to know what the showrunners' guidance was to the writers, because I think that's the missing piece of the puzzle.

 

I'd like to see this fixed for season 2. The casting was quite good. Maybe they could all step out of some kind of waterfall/shower and find that the previous season was a dream?

[Raal Gurniss]

58 minutes ago, Mike Grier said:

I'm definitely in the camp that thinks that it's an atrocity if the majority of writers are not intimately familiar with the source material. Otherwise, even calling it "based on" is a stretch.

 

That said, truly, what matters usually is the show's bible. I don't know how this process always works but at least in the Star Trek universe, there was a seasonal bible which would call out any new canon (since canon was important) and how to write to it. As was called out, writers do just have jobs and work for managers and theoretically at least follow the bibles/guidelines.

 

I'd really like to know what the showrunners' guidance was to the writers, because I think that's the missing piece of the puzzle.

 

I'd like to see this fixed for season 2. The casting was quite good. Maybe they could all step out of some kind of waterfall/shower and find that the previous season was a dream?

Well I wonder more about if anyone said anything during the script reading…I mean if several of them had read the books they MUST have been aware it would cause issues if they had, that not a single objection was raised hints at most if not all didn’t actually read even the majority of books.

[EasingTheBadger]

17 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 Critics also say that Rafe is ruining the entire project, but he knows and loves the books. Surely by this logic, someone as well versed in the books as Rafe should have written the best episodes? 

By this logic, since I know and love the books, I can therefore write episodes that exceed the drivel that has been so far produced?  Well, I did minor in English Literature....

 

In the quoted scenario, we are assuming Rafe is a talented screen writer.  Being generous, I think the jury is still out on that.

Edited January 4, 2022 by EasingTheBadger

[notpropaganda73]

4 hours ago, EasingTheBadger said:

By this logic, since I know and love the books, I can therefore write episodes that exceed the drivel that has been so far produced?  Well, I did minor in English Literature....

 

In the quoted scenario, we are assuming Rafe is a talented screen writer.  Being generous, I think the jury is still out on that.

 

I agree, but my point was that putting so much emphasis on the writers' having read the books is the wrong emphasis. The emphasis should absolutely be on them being talented screen writers, and book knowledge follows that. 

[fra85uk]

14 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

I agree, but my point was that putting so much emphasis on the writers' having read the books is the wrong emphasis. The emphasis should absolutely be on them being talented screen writers, and book knowledge follows that. 

 

Well, ideally one would aim to talent+knowledge of source material

Since talent is absent (but this is true to many recent Hollywood productions),  i would be ok with writers at least respectful of the source material.

[Gary Reborn]

I just rewatched it again and I thought they did a good job. One of my favorite things is the strength of casting and I liked what they did with the main characters but what they did with Ishamael, Valda, Fain, Logain were all great too. Valda and Ishamael in particular are perfect. I was a little iffy of Loial at first but I think the actor there is doing an amazing job there and the way he’s delivering his lines seem perfect. Siuan as well I thought was particularly great in that she basically played 3 different versions of the same character and none of them seemed out of place. Moiraine too I think she’s shown multiple sides of the character that have been interesting, calm confident and effective like episode 1, back against the wall against Liandrin, booty call Moiraine and then just bringing it to the streets and pulling a knife on Rand once Ishamael shields her was a nice touch. She’s just all about getting the mission done at all costs which is so Moiraine. Lan too I get that there is this whole thing about how awesome he should be at tracking but I like the actor and what he is doing with it, I liked the scene with the family etc. I get he’s moving faster than the books but everyone is going to need to. Loved his nice to see you too line to Rand and then I guess while we are at it loved Min’s lines and Rand’s joke about Loial in the ways if he is asking for patients we are all going to die.

 

I always knew that anyone was going to have to basically take a hacksaw to this story to get it to work on any other kind of medium someone mentioned the audio books are 400+ hours (10 work weeks) and they only have 64 hours to tell the story in this show so I’m not really upset about that aspect and I like the changes they made to Ishy and Fain, Mat I was disappointed with too but they didn’t really have a choice and I loved the actor (he did sick Mat perfectly), I think you did have to get more about Aes Sedai and men channeling in earlier so I liked those two episodes I thought Siuan and Logain were both great episodes and are both important enough to the larger story to deserve being introduced now. Stepin I get that it seemed superfluous but it did explain the bond really well, brought some background on the forsaken and fleshed out Lan more. I also think the actor just showed a good amount of range effectively of going from cheerful and happy to just trying to hold it together until he could kill himself.

 

I was bummed we didn’t get a cavalry charge but I liked how they set up the hopelessness of what the borderlanders were facing and relentless advance of the blight, how the borderlanders were just getting pushed to the brink and just darkly thought it was the end. That didn’t come out till some of the later books but I like how they tied it in. The end I thought was great Ishy was perfect and the book was I think originally written as this huge victory because it was supposed to be a one book series but then when RJ decided to do 3,6,9,12 books he retconned the first book as them all getting manipulated and freeing the forsaken and more of a sinister manipulation to set up the later stories rather than a decisive victory so I like that they took the later approach to that battle because they also are telling a bigger story.

 

Overall though I think the main thing I would do is just stop with the death fakeout scenes they get cheaper the more they do it and on rereading things there is a fair amount of this in the books already so there isn’t a lot of room to do more of this without it starting to get really old. I wish we got a cavalry charge but with the 6’ rule and having to change the ending I thought they did a good job with what they were able to show and I think they are setting up to have a nice battle at Falme we know the horn is coming, Seanchan and Ishamael is great so I’m excited to see where they go with it.

 

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Gary Reborn

[Rahns]

My biggest issues are the changes seemingly for the sake of changes, and a lot of movies and shows adapted from books suffer from this. 

 

Whenever they made a change the only thing I could think was "why", which was the main reason I couldn't actually enjoy the show.

 

Changing Perrin to a married blacksmith, who then is slotted into a tortured character arc.

 

The arbitrary decision to make everyone eligible dragons for the sake of ambiguity, when even 3 is ambiguous enough.

 

Mat's rushed broken home storyline, and pretty much everything with Mat. They really did him dirty.

 

The sheer amount of healing, including the casual raising of the dead by Egwene. 

 

The absence of multiple scenes that would've brought action/tension ie. Being hunted outside Shadar Logoth by horn tooting Trollocs and the fight that follows.

 

Not showing Lan to be the badass he is.

 

not having Rand's dad inadvertently teaching him how to channel. 

 

World building in general, it feels like the show assumes you know what they are talking about.

 

If they stick to it, Fain killing Loial, Uno, and Ingtar but not doing anything about Perrin, literally moments after stating they wanted to capture them.

 

The choice to make the seanchan have magic rings and ball gags instead of the collar and chain.

 

But probably the most important, the absence of many, MANY characters. 

 

All in all I feel the show is loosely inspired by the books, especially after that finale. I'm probably spoiled by how GoT turned out as it was pretty good until they ran out of books to work with. 

 

There is only one question I want answered though,

Why is it whenever a good book series is made into a TV show or a movie, someone in Hollywood believes they can improve upon it? Why did I watch Rafe Judkins Wheel of Time and not Robert Jordan's?

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Rahns
Repeated statement

[NetSlider]

Stopped watching after ep5 and I’m not coming back. This is not a WOT adaptation and I refuse to support this disgrace. I’m officially out, no matter how many excuses are presented.

[Raal Gurniss]

2 hours ago, Rahns said:

My biggest issues are the changes seemingly for the sake of changes, and a lot of movies and shows adapted from books suffer from this. 

 

Whenever they made a change the only thing I could think was "why", which was the main reason I couldn't actually enjoy the show.

 

Changing Perrin to a married blacksmith, who then is slotted into a tortured character arc.

 

The arbitrary decision to make everyone eligible dragons for the sake of ambiguity, when even 3 is ambiguous enough.

 

Mat's rushed broken home storyline, and pretty much everything with Mat. They really did him dirty.

 

The sheer amount of healing, including the casual raising of the dead by Egwene. 

 

The absence of multiple scenes that would've brought action/tension ie. Being hunted outside Shadar Logoth by horn tooting Trollocs and the fight that follows.

 

Not showing Lan to be the badass he is.

 

not having Rand's dad inadvertently teaching him how to channel. 

 

World building in general, it feels like the show assumes you know what they are talking about.

 

If they stick to it, Fain killing Loial, Uno, and Ingtar but not doing anything about Perrin, literally moments after stating they wanted to capture them.

 

The choice to make the seanchan have magic rings and ball gags instead of the collar and chain.The choice to make the seanchan have magic rings and ball gags instead of the collar and chain.

 

But probably the most important, the absence of many, MANY characters. 

 

All in all I feel the show is loosely inspired by the books, especially after that finale. I'm probably spoiled by how GoT turned out as it was pretty good until they ran out of books to work with. 

 

There is only one question I want answered though,

Why is it whenever a good book series is made into a TV show or a movie, someone in Hollywood believes they can improve upon it? Why did I watch Rafe Judkins Wheel of Time and not Robert Jordan's?

 

Ah, they didn’t attempt to improve it..They just tried to cater for a different type of audience than the book fans, not saying book fans were excluded or prevented from liking it, just that the previous fanbase weren’t targeted as the audience…What would be the point in that? They were essentially part of the intellectual rights purchase as x% were expected to watch it regardless.

[Raal Gurniss]

3 minutes ago, NetSlider said:

Stopped watching after ep5 and I’m not coming back. This is not a WOT adaptation and I refuse to support this disgrace. I’m officially out, no matter how many excuses are presented.

I hung in till the final episode and switched off after 3 minutes….

 

 

[Gothic Flame]

If I recall, Rafe & Co. (i.e. Amazon) had this slotted/scheduled in a spot with little competition. It had this timeframe to play "flavor of the month" to win over an audience...and keep them. Word of mouth is the best advertising because that pulls in new viewers in a competitive timeslot. (That's where the work gets the big payoff I believe. Imagine if it knocked the much touted "Mandalorian" down a couple of notches)

The upshot is that I don't believe it's been successful at all in any of the above except to show how fast it lost viewers.

[NetSlider]

2 hours ago, Rahns said:

 

There is only one question I want answered though,

Why is it whenever a good book series is made into a TV show or a movie, someone in Hollywood believes they can improve upon it? Why did I watch Rafe Judkins Wheel of Time and not Robert Jordan's?

 

I was literary thinking the same thing. RJ created something special and super successful, and here comes some “I can do it better” , without actually have done better on his/her own, and “improves” it. Maybe we will see animated series someday that is actually WOT adaptation…

[EduardoEnriqueGonzalez]

21 hours ago, EmreY said:

 

All you have to do is look across the forums to see that this is not the case.

 

. ?

Have you seen the poll results in this very thread? 

[ashi]

18 minutes ago, EduardoEnriqueGonzalez said:

21 hours ago, EmreY said:

23 hours ago, Dew21 said:

I think that the only way that you could possibly like this show is if you DIDN'T read the books.

 

All you have to do is look across the forums to see that this is not the case.

Have you seen the poll results in this very thread? 

 

Surely the poll results only serve to confirm EmreY's point? At the time of writing, 37% of the voters in this poll have stated that they either love or like the show, and presumably at least some of them are book readers. Consequently (unless bizarrely we are to suppose that the voters are untruthful), this poll shows that there are people who love/like the show, despite having read the books.

[EmreY]

1 hour ago, EduardoEnriqueGonzalez said:

Have you seen the poll results in this very thread? 

 

Verily, I have.  266 responses so far.  99 like or love; 131 dislike or loathe.  

 

This is supposed to mean something?

[EduardoEnriqueGonzalez]

23 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

Verily, I have.  266 responses so far.  99 like or love; 131 dislike or loathe.  

 

This is supposed to mean something?

I mean... Yes? Small sample but still rather telling. Also take into account that at the time this poll started, a lot of people (myself included) were still clinging on to hope and voted positively. 

 

Consider also the Rotten Tomatoes trend: the show had over 80% positive reviews (sample of 3k reviewers) by the public heading into December. It has sunk to 66% since (at 4.6k reviews). 

 

 

[Katherine]

I just kept hoping and hoping and hoping. WHen I took the poll it was "meh" ..... but Ep.8 ruined it for me. Not planning on watching season 2 :(.