How did the show hold up for you?

[Maximillion]

14 hours ago, VooDooNut said:

I disagree.

 

What was the best part of HOTD? Was it the

  Hide contents

useless 10 minute orgy scene?

Or maybe

  Hide contents

the mutilation and full-frame castration of peasants

?
Mayhaps the ridiculous

  Hide contents

birthing process and cesarean section

appealed to you?

I'd rather watch WOT going a little over the top with a feminist focus than watch, imo, the worst parts of Game of Thrones rehashed in a prequel. Yes, the set and costume design was well done for HOTD, but it feels like a bouquet of roses trying to cover up the stench of overdone sexual and violent themes.

 

 

You worry too much about 'offensive' content.

HOTD actually has many themes playing to  social agendas too, but the point is that they are not a problem. It's absolutely fine as long as the story is well written and moves along well and the set / effects / scale draws you into that story.  That is what HOTD has done very well.  Something Amazon should be paying attention to and learning from. 

 

HOTD has been out for a week and already has a much better audience rating -  and has in that 1 week got 50k reviews on IMDB.  WoT still only has 99k reviews.

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by Maximillion

[VooDooNut]

4 hours ago, Maximillion said:

 

 

You worry too much about 'offensive' content.

HOTD actually has many themes playing to  social agendas too, but the point is that they are not a problem. It's absolutely fine as long as the story is well written and moves along well and the set / effects / scale draws you into that story.  That is what HOTD has done very well.  Something Amazon should be paying attention to and learning from. 

 

HOTD has been out for a week and already has a much better audience rating -  and has in that 1 week got 50k reviews on IMDB.  WoT still only has 99k reviews.

 

Worried? No, I'm not worried. Disgusted? Absolutely. The only way I would find myself worried, per se, is if I had kids and those kids watched HOTD and thought it was the pinnacle of modern television. Like I said, I think it uses violence and sex as a crutch when it really doesn't need as much of either to tell a quality story. It already has a lot of good aspects beyond those two elements.

As to ratings, I really couldn't care less. I have my own feelings towards HOTD and WOT and online reviews and ratings are not going to influence my opinion. Since it's something you enjoy, I hope it's a successful project and you get to enjoy many more episodes/seasons to come. I'll look elsewhere for my story-telling entertainment. 

[Elder_Haman]

On 8/26/2022 at 10:54 AM, Maximillion said:

Watching House of the Dragon this week brought into sharp focus just how bad WoT was written and paced - as well as showing up the lack of scale in WoT.

 

HOTD has many modern day social elements included that some people complain about in TV shows (especially WoT), but it was excellent anyway.  The story is brought screen really well and the scale just seems so much bigger and better done.  Just shows what good writing, directing, editing and effects can do.  Hopefully they raid the team from top to bottom on HOTD and put them to work trying to salvage WoT!

 

Hard disagree. HotD has been a snoozefest so far. I feel like it has a nice look, but that's about it. There's nothing that catches my attention. I haven't read the source material, so I have no idea what to expect. But if it doesn't get interesting soon, I may not even finish the season.

[DojoToad]

3 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Hard disagree. HotD has been a snoozefest so far. I feel like it has a nice look, but that's about it. There's nothing that catches my attention. I haven't read the source material, so I have no idea what to expect. But if it doesn't get interesting soon, I may not even finish the season.

That is one thing I've gotten better at in my old age - quitting shows/movies that don't interest me.  I used to finish them just because I started.  There are too many things to occupy my time to waste it on mediocre or subpar entertainment.  Give it a chance then stay or move on.

[MasterAblar]

I can barely muster up interest to start watching shows so I'm certainly not one to hesitate walking away from one. Which is weird because I'm the total opposite when it comes to books. WoT is probably the first series in a very long time that I've actually planned to watch before it came out.

[DojoToad]

On 8/30/2022 at 8:43 PM, MasterAblar said:

I can barely muster up interest to start watching shows so I'm certainly not one to hesitate walking away from one. Which is weird because I'm the total opposite when it comes to books. WoT is probably the first series in a very long time that I've actually planned to watch before it came out.

Right.  In fact, WoT was probably the only show that I have ever looked forward to before the premiere.  I was never one to study up on the next offerings for the new TV season.  But I may be forgetting something...

 

In any case, it is definitely the only show I've ever promoted before the premiere.  Won't make that mistake again.  I had to do a lot of backtracking with folks I had been pumping up the show to.  Watch the show first before deciding to be a champion for it.

Edited September 13, 2022 by DojoToad

[Torgolpuff]

I think the casting was ok. I didn't like it when they changed the story line at all. IDK why poor Perrin had a wife let alone had to kill her by accident. Having that burden would massively change the development arc of a person and therefore the Leader he ultimately becomes in the book. Moiraine having a intimate relationship with the Amrylin? I mean really? did we actually need that? 

[Skipp]

1 hour ago, Torgolpuff said:

I think the casting was ok. I didn't like it when they changed the story line at all. IDK why poor Perrin had a wife let alone had to kill her by accident. Having that burden would massively change the development arc of a person and therefore the Leader he ultimately becomes in the book. Moiraine having a intimate relationship with the Amrylin? I mean really? did we actually need that? 

 

Considering Moiraine's relationship with Suian is actually canon, they had just broken it off earlier in the books. I actually quite like the fact that they brought it to the forefront for the characters.

 

While fridging is a problematic trope I think it was used well in Perrin's case.  Most of Perrin's development and conflict is almost entirely internal monologue and is very difficult it show on screen.  Having Perrin kill his significant other immediately allows the audience to know where his head is at.  It also gives a reference point for his journey his growth to detesting violence but finding it necessary.  I thought it it was a nice touch considering Perrin says he would have likely married Layla had he stayed in the Two Rivers.

 

But I completely understand why people would not like what they did with Perrin and Layla but I know the writers considered the repercussions of it.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Skipp

[DojoToad]

6 hours ago, Torgolpuff said:

I think the casting was ok. I didn't like it when they changed the story line at all. IDK why poor Perrin had a wife let alone had to kill her by accident. Having that burden would massively change the development arc of a person and therefore the Leader he ultimately becomes in the book. Moiraine having a intimate relationship with the Amrylin? I mean really? did we actually need that? 

Yes and no.  There is always a market for sexy time in TV, movies, and lit.

 

Jordan never 'showed' Egwene and Rand's relationship as being carnal.  But it is not that big a leap to assume it was happening.  Fast forwarding Nynaeve and Lan's relationship, I think, was a bit too quick for the romantic in me based on what I 'knew' of the book characters.  Siuan and Moiraine was unexpected as their current relationship was not portrayed as physical at all in the books - but was not out of left field either considering their relationship as novices.

 

I think all three of the relationships could have been handled better, but that is based on my own opinions/sensitivities.  Other folks probably think they should have gone further...

[Jake Sykwalker]

On 9/15/2022 at 1:57 AM, DojoToad said:

 

 

I think all three of the relationships could have been handled better, but that is based on my own opinions/sensitivities.  Other folks probably think they should have gone further...

 

I wasn't a fan of the changes either, but my guess is a lot of people would have had less issues with them if they were done well.  They simply were not written well and only thrown in for shock "Game of Thrones" value.  None of the relationships were earned, or led to anything rewarding.  Relationships have to be built and earned between characters if you want audiences to care about them.  

 

 

[Jake Sykwalker]

On 9/14/2022 at 8:24 PM, Skipp said:

 

Considering Moiraine's relationship with Suian is actually canon, they had just broken it off earlier in the books. I actually quite like the fact that they brought it to the forefront for the characters.

 

While fridging is a problematic trope I think it was used well in Perrin's case.  Most of Perrin's development and conflict is almost entirely internal monologue and is very difficult it show on screen.  Having Perrin kill his significant other immediately allows the audience to know where his head is at.  It also gives a reference point for his journey his growth to detesting violence but finding it necessary.  I thought it it was a nice touch considering Perrin says he would have likely married Layla had he stayed in the Two Rivers.

 

But I completely understand why people would not like what they did with Perrin and Layla but I know the writers considered the repercussions of it.

 

Don't care about Moiraine and Siuan's relationship in the show other than it a) wastes screen time on something not even remotely useful to the plot and b) contradicts them trying to avoid each other in the books to throw people off.  Their mission is their #1 priority because it is to save the world.  Unless they need some random together time that could wreck the whole thing.  

 

In Perin's case we have another poor choice in fridging compounded by the fact that they didn't do much useful with it.  Its not like he had much of an arc out of it.  Just sad face for a while and then moving on.  If Brandon (don't say anything bad about people) Sanderson is telling you it was bad then it was bad.  

 

If these writers are around for season 2 I wouldn't expect much out of it.

[WhiteVeils]

 

Suian and Moiraine /did/ avoid each other...even more than they did in the early Great Hunt.  

Perrin's story arc through S1 AND S2...his whole journey with Violence is going to hinge on that relationship with Laila and what happened (Note: NOT classic fridging, no matter what people say. Fridging is when the bad guy kills the woman to motivate the hero, not when the hero does it by accident).  Sanderson did not say it was bad...he said he felt it was a necessary change, but he would have had Perrin kill Master Luhan instead of Laila.  The reason they killed Laila was because they didn't have the time in the script to build up a whole relationship between Luhan and Perrin before Winternight, whereas the husband/wife dynamic could be established with a few very quick shots.
 

The writers were fine. There were one or two lines that seemed a little weak, but the over all plots and dynamics were good.  They brought forward some things from later books to give hints to viewers of what is to come, but EOTW was always among the least gripping books.  It gets better from here.

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

 

Suian and Moiraine /did/ avoid each other...even more than they did in the early Great Hunt.  

Perrin's story arc through S1 AND S2...his whole journey with Violence is going to hinge on that relationship with Laila and what happened (Note: NOT classic fridging, no matter what people say. Fridging is when the bad guy kills the woman to motivate the hero, not when the hero does it by accident).  Sanderson did not say it was bad...he said he felt it was a necessary change, but he would have had Perrin kill Master Luhan instead of Laila.  The reason they killed Laila was because they didn't have the time in the script to build up a whole relationship between Luhan and Perrin before Winternight, whereas the husband/wife dynamic could be established with a few very quick shots.
 

The writers were fine. There were one or two lines that seemed a little weak, but the over all plots and dynamics were good.  They brought forward some things from later books to give hints to viewers of what is to come, but EOTW was always among the least gripping books.  It gets better from here.

Husband/wife dynamic definitely easier to deal with.  But they introduced stuff they didn't need to at the same time.  Why was she distant, why was he trying to comfort her?

 

But I don't think Perrin/Haral would have been difficult.  Some off-hand comment when they were at the inn:

• Perrin - I don't think Master Luhhan has been happy with my work lately...
• Rand - Don't be an idiot, you're the son he never had.  He probably had a fight with Alsbet and is taking it out on you.

I'm sure it can be greatly improved, but I don't think it has to be hard or has to take a lot of screen time.  Mat did not have a lot of screen time with his sisters, but it was obvious he loved them.

[SilentRoamer]

I would have handled Perrins rage completely differently. For a start - I don't think him killing Layla gave any indication of his problems with anger/violence, he was literally fighting for his life against some monsters that he thought were a myth to scare children to bed. He accidentally lashed out and caught his wife, for me, that didn't show any underlying issues, it just showed a mistake in the heat of a messy battle against a near mythical monstrous foe. 

I would have played that whole thing out differently:

Perrin would have no wife, but he would have been reluctant to join the battle. 

Perrin: "I can't fight, I can't lose myself"
Mat: "Perrin you have to fight, let go, we need you!"

At which point Perrin starts fighting and maybe kills a Trolloc helping Mat save his sisters. Perrin proceeds to smash the dead Trolloc to pieces, Mat has to bring him round, where a blood soaked Perrin, in the heat of bloodlust, nearly kills Mat and/or his sisters, until he finally regains control, covered in blood and distraught at where his actions could have taken him.

As it stands, Perrin has just killed his wife and very quickly seems to forget about it... Pretty sure that sort of event would lead to some deep seated trauma, far above and beyond Perrins usual problems with violence. 

[WhiteVeils]

Folks can second guess all they want...I guess that's what fanfiction is for.  They made the show based on the choices they thought would work best for the medium they were in.  

I do think Perrin's storyarc re: Laila was shortchanged. I dont' think he got over it too quickly, because I don't think he got over it at all, or even started to. His response to that event is going to be driving his story all the way through to the end of the series.  However, I don't think that the show took quite enough time to show where he was at during the first 8 episodes.

 

I believe the goal with the first season for Perrin was show him in that place of numbness and shock.

 

I would not be surprised if we go through all the stages of grief through the seasons of the series, and the axe/hammer story will weave into that.

 

What would that look like?  (Using this resource as a guide)

S1: Denial  - Shock, numbness, not telling anyone what's going on, avoiding talking or thinking about it unless pressed.  We saw this in Perrin's expressions, how he doesn't tell anyone aobut what's going on, how he doesn't act until pushed.

 

S2: Anger - My guess. Frustration, impatience, aggression, arguing, feeling out of control.  This will be driving him to join the hunt for the horn. I wouldn't be surprised to see a temper from Perrin. Maybe fighting trollocs, maybe Whitecloaks.  He's starting to scare himself about the Wolves, and thinking that maybe it was being out of control that caused him to kill Laila.  I can see him being angry at Rand for not coming back.  This season he will start associating the Wolves with his rage, and he will have his 'killing Whitecloaks/Young Bull moment'.  

S3. Bargaining. He starts to associate the wolves with his rage, and this is when he is blaming himself with that lack of control. He has some magical thinking that he will not communicate with the wolves any more, that he will 'fix' things.  This will have him going back to the Two Rivers to 'accept responsibility', sacrifice himself to the Whitecloaks to 'fix' everything and make up for what he did. Faile and Loial and the whole shadowspawn situation end up stopping him, but he is still anxious and worried that he will fail again. His sacrifice won't bring Laila back.

S4-5. Depression - His time in the Two Rivers has let the whole extent of Laila's death and his family's loss sink in, and he is learning to deal with that grief.  At a guess, Faile gets kidnapped somewhere in here, and he feels like a failure, having lost his wife again (if they are married by this point).  He hyperfocuses on getting her back, not interested in eating or sleeping, feeling like he'll toss the world without her, feeling overwhelmed, etc.

S6-end of series. Acceptance - He's put Laila's death as far behind him as is possible to do so, dealing with the current reality, moving on to make a real life with Faile. There are moments where he visits Laila's death again, but he's accepted both the death and his wolfbrother powers, which he, in his mind, has linked.
 

We didn't get much in S1, not as much as I would want, but I would guess that they are going to deal with this a lot more, using Laila's death not as a single season of drama, but a whole way of explaining Perrin's relationship to violence, to the wolves, and everything which would be in his head otherwise.

[ForsakenPotato]

On 9/20/2022 at 10:48 AM, Jake Sykwalker said:

They simply were not written well and only thrown in for shock "Game of Thrones" value. 

I think Siuan and Moiraine kissing and presumably (offscreen) doing other stuff is a far cry from Game of Thrones sexuality, in which important character monologues are delivered while unnamed, unclothed, and completely irrelevant prostitutes go down on each other the entire time, multiple main characters are raped onscreen, siblings routinely hook up, and people's junk gets cut off in torture scenes.

 

Two adults having a consensual, healthy, romantic, and not particularly explicit relationship is practically unheard of in Game of Thrones! And, in my opinion, quite refreshing.

[Vartija]

For me the biggest issue with Perrin killing his wife was that it burdened Perrin with a dark storyline that effected the whole mood of his and the entire main cast's journey. It frankly made watching him difficult because he was so depressed over it (which of course he had to be). As a result I just didn't enjoy his scenes in season 1. It sucked the life out of him. The act was so shocking that they'll have to keep reminding the audience about it in future seasons as well, especially when/if Faile turns up. I'll struggle to enjoy those scenes as well probably.

 

For me it just doesn't pass the cost/benefit analysis when there was already a similar if not quite as dramatic arc available from the books (Perrin killing whitecloaks). That scene could have shown his rage issues far better than the accidental killing in episode 1. Have him go berserk on them and have Egwene witness it and be horrified by it for example. They could have tied that into the who's the Dragon mystery as well.  

[SilentRoamer]

On 9/22/2022 at 6:16 PM, WhiteVeils said:

Folks can second guess all they want...I guess that's what fanfiction is for.  They made the show

 

Perrin killing a wife that never existed in the books.

Mats father being a drunken wastrel and him now being a thief. 
Moraine believing the Dragon reborn could be a woman.

 

Aren't we already watching Fan Fiction? And I use the word Fan lightly based on his views. 

[SinisterDeath]

2 hours ago, SilentRoamer said:

 

Perrin killing a wife that never existed in the books.

Mats father being a drunken wastrel and him now being a thief. 
Moraine believing the Dragon reborn could be a woman.

 

Aren't we already watching Fan Fiction? And I use the word Fan lightly based on his views. 

No. It's adaptation. A Company (Amazon) and Studio (Sony) obtained the legal rights from the Bandersnatch Group & REE to create a TV show based on the written works of "Robert Jordan".

Fan Fiction is a story written by "fans" within the world or story another created, and is a violation of copyright law when published online, or printed & sold to others.

Thus there are two distinct legal differences between an "Adaptation" and "Fan Fiction" regardless of what your opinion on the matter is, or the common use of that word.

As for Rafe not being a fan, that's your opinion, a crappy one IMO, but it's your opinion.
I seem to recall Rafe talking about bringing characters back on track to where they should be in the books, which also implies bringing the entire story "back on track".

https://www.wotseries.com/2022/07/21/rafe-judkins-qa-post-comic-con-panel/

[DojoToad]

3 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

I seem to recall Rafe talking about bringing characters back on track to where they should be in the books, which also implies bringing the entire story "back on track".

https://www.wotseries.com/2022/07/21/rafe-judkins-qa-post-comic-con-panel/

Which confirms the characters were off track to begin with, and also implies that the entire story was off track.  And some folks wonder why we complain about the show.  Characters and story are most of the show.

 

Here's to hoping it all gets back on track! 👍

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

Which confirms the characters were off track to begin with, and also implies that the entire story was off track.  And some folks wonder why we complain about the show.  Characters and story are most of the show.

 

Here's to hoping it all gets back on track! 👍

From the same site I linked.

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

From the same site I linked.

Well I'm glad to see that Rafe didn't get the show he wanted either. 😁

 

S2 will tell.  Was it COVID?  Was it the writing?  Was it the show runner - no matter how awesome it is or isn't,  it all rests on Rafe's shoulders in the end.  Just as the books rested on RJ1's...

[SilentRoamer]

19 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

No. It's adaptation. A Company (Amazon) and Studio (Sony) obtained the legal rights from the Bandersnatch Group & REE to create a TV show based on the written works of "Robert Jordan".

Fan Fiction is a story written by "fans" within the world or story another created, and is a violation of copyright law when published online, or printed & sold to others.

Thus there are two distinct legal differences between an "Adaptation" and "Fan Fiction" regardless of what your opinion on the matter is, or the common use of that word.

As for Rafe not being a fan, that's your opinion, a crappy one IMO, but it's your opinion.
I seem to recall Rafe talking about bringing characters back on track to where they should be in the books, which also implies bringing the entire story "back on track".

https://www.wotseries.com/2022/07/21/rafe-judkins-qa-post-comic-con-panel/

 

Sorry I should have ended with /sarcasm mode OFF. I am aware of the differences between an adaption and Fan Fiction, it seems at least one other person got the joke/sarcasm.

There's an old saying in Yorkshire - "it might say Oxo on the side of Buses but they don't sell Oxo cubes". Legally this is an adaption but if they keep making unnecessary changes then eventually (in the eyes of book fan viewers) this becomes more like fan fiction, whatever the legalese wants to say on the matter. 

Of course it's my opinion - when people type on these sorts of forums they tend to give their own opinion. Lets hope they can get the show "back on track" to where it needs to be and stop adding ridiculous elements that do nothing to improve the story.

 

14 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

From the same site I linked.

 

At least Rafe acknowledges that absolutely absurd scene as his least liked change (every casual viewer I have spoken to thinks Nynaeve was brought back from the dead). Unfortunately I poked and prodded a number of friends to watch Season 1, friends who haven't read the books but are either SFF readers or Fantasy fans. I shan't be pestering them to watch S2 to be honest. 

My least liked scene was the ending of the Season, the ending of the Eye of the World is messy and confusing, but also exciting and exhilarating, the end of S1 was just a borefest. They literally just re-used a combination between the red-door terangreal alternative reality that the trainee Aes Sedia face, along with philosophical discussions in AMOL.

I'm still going to be watching the show, I just want them to be more careful in their decisions and hopefully without the disruption caused by Covid and a major player leaving the show then Season 2 will return the pieces back to the board in the places they should really be. 

[BookMattBetterThanShow]

2 hours ago, SilentRoamer said:

Unfortunately I poked and prodded a number of friends to watch Season 1, friends who haven't read the books but are either SFF readers or Fantasy fans. I shan't be pestering them to watch S2 to be honest.

Same for me, sad to say but I just can't recommend anymore. Hopefully it will get better, but the last episode was just bad. I know they had issues with COVID and having main actor leave, but in my opinion they would have been better off just stopping at episode 7. 

[Cauthonfan4]

21 hours ago, SilentRoamer said:

I'm still going to be watching the show

At this point I'm going to adopt a wait and see approach for season 2. If people I trust tell me its back on track and more in line with the books I may check out season 2. But I have little faith in that happening.

 

Really looking forward to reacher though.

You know that show that closely followed the books and was far better received then wheel of time across the board?