Will the show be good? Our hopes and concerns

[Ralph]

4 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

This is a weird flex. Jordan wasn’t a screenwriter and I think he’d probably be the first to concede that changes from novel to screenplay are necessary and that Rafe [as a screenwriter] does in fact “know better” in some respects. 
 

 

 

I think those making this point mean specifically charges made to fit with modern "politics" or gender dynamics or other. In which they assume RJ would not have changed his vision, and that anyone who thinks otherwise "knows better." 

 

This seems contradicted by the undeniable fact that RJ adapted some of these points as he went through the years of writing the story. 

 

And I assume they were equally outraged by BS introducing a male gay character, bc RJ never had? 

[Ralph]

3 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

You know, actually, (and this is a little embarrassing) I haven't read LotR haha I have no idea how this goes down in the books. In the movie, it works well because it seamlessly introduces Arwen, its excellently filmed, and leads to one of the coolest sequences in the movie. That leads me to believe that enough of the decision making likely centered around adapting the story of the books to the film medium to justify it. It certainly didn't feel like a random "lolgurlpower" scene. Unlike the "I am no man" scene from RotK which I thought sucked waaaay before I learned that it wasn't in the books haha

 

Again, I think changes are a fine and natural part of adaptation. But the reasoning behind those changes matters. Many of Rafe's changes seem to stem less from "this would make great TV" than "This aspect of the original doesn't align with my own beliefs. I'm gonna change it" and then justifying it by claiming that it's what RJ would have done if only he were alive. 

 

So what's the difference in these changes? I think intent actually does matter because ideologically motivated writing tends to be lazy. Like, this is the reason that professors often ask their students to write papers from opposing viewpoints. Many professors will then tell you that the quality of writing in those papers goes up rather than down. Because writing things you disagree with forces you to think. You can't do that on autopilot. 

 

Ultimately, if you're making creative decisions based on what aligns with your own preexisting ideology, you're often just preaching to the choir. No one in the pews criticizes you, and if they do, you can just call them to repentance. Nothing is ever your fault, and you're absolved from any sort of accountability. You were doing god's work, after all. 

 

The Arwen at the Ford was simply changed from a male Elf to her

 

I am no man is in the books, just not that she says it herself. And that is a necessary change in a screen version, bc in the books it was just discussed afterwards. I don't see any reason to assume it was girl power motivated

[Agitel]

13 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

This is a weird flex. Jordan wasn’t a screenwriter and I think he’d probably be the first to concede that changes from novel to screenplay are necessary and that Rafe [as a screenwriter] does in fact “know better” in some respects. 
 

 

 

There is a difference between adapting/condensing the plot for a different medium and presenting a completely different perspective on a social issue that is pretty essential to the dynamics of the book and which we can't really know how Jordan would feel about today.

[Wraith235]

4 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

I think those making this point mean specifically charges made to fit with modern "politics" or gender dynamics or other. In which they assume RJ would not have changed his vision, and that anyone who thinks otherwise "knows better." 

 

This seems contradicted by the undeniable fact that RJ adapted some of these points as he went through the years of writing the story. 

 

And I assume they were equally outraged by BS introducing a male gay character, bc RJ never had? 

this is Very Very Close 
however, I wasn't a huge fan of Sandersons take on it - I didn't Hate it .... but it was DEFINATLY a different feel ... which was highlighted by the epilouge 

 

[swollymammoth]

Happy Thursday!

Edited November 11, 2021 by swollymammoth
Realized I was picking nits.

[Ralph]

6 minutes ago, Wraith235 said:

this is Very Very Close 
however, I wasn't a huge fan of Sandersons take on it - I didn't Hate it .... but it was DEFINATLY a different feel ... which was highlighted by the epilouge 

 

What do you mean it was highlighted by the epilogue? 

[Wraith235]

4 minutes ago, Ralph said:

What do you mean it was highlighted by the epilogue? 

the Epilouge was Jordan and not sanderson ..... you can Feel the difference  between the last page of the chapter and the epilouge .... I know this was discussed at the release event of AMoL in Provo that Jordan had had the Epilouge Written YEARS prior to his death
I am fairly sure its stated somewhere in an article on the internet Im just not sure where

Edited November 11, 2021 by Wraith235

[swollymammoth]

9 minutes ago, Wraith235 said:

This seems contradicted by the undeniable fact that RJ adapted some of these points as he went through the years of writing the story. 

I see where you're coming from, but I think there's merit to considering that neither approach is perfect. Since forecasting what he might have done today is impossible, the safest bet is just to leave it alone. Like, no one is out here making paintings and trying to buy themselves credibility by saying that it's what Picasso would have been doing were he alive in 2021 haha

 

Also, Brandon Sanderson can barely write straight characters, let along gay ones. This doesn't have anything to do with anything, but I had to take the opportunity to dig at the worst popular author fantasy has ever seen. Couldn't help myself. 

[Ralph]

1 minute ago, Wraith235 said:

the Epilouge was Jordan and not sanderson ..... you can Feel the difference  between the last page of the chapter and the epilouge .... I know this was discussed at the release event of AMoL in Provo and am fairly sure its stated somewhere in an article on the internet 

Yes this was said at the time. And that many other parts were also, but they didn't want to tell us which

 

What did you feel was so different though? Writing style, or "politics," which is what we are discussing? 

[Agitel]

Sigh...

 

To be more specific, the books were certainly written with a philosophy of gender essentialism. There is a lot of the world-building and motifs of the book contingent on that. I know in interviews prior to his death he was a bit flabbergasted with all the questions about whether the Dragon could be born as a women in other turnings (I think this was more of a sexism concern than a queer concern). But we don't know what Jordan's position on gender essentialism would be if he lived until 2021.

 

You could represent characters who have gender dysphoria/identify as the opposite sex/gender in a world with Jordan's gender essentialism. However, it seems like the showrunners are tossing out the book's philosophy on gender essentialism and replacing it with a different view of gender identity, which is more than only adding representation. If so, that is a major change to the worldbuilding and Jordan's motifs (and we don't know if this is something Jordan would agree with, but keep in mind Rafe is trying to promote a product to all sides), but will probably have minimal impact on character and plot arcs.

 

This is all getting speculative, though.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Agitel

[Wraith235]

1 minute ago, Ralph said:

Yes this was said at the time. And that many other parts were also, but they didn't want to tell us which

 

What did you feel was so different though? Writing style, or "politics," which is what we are discussing? 

Writing style as well as the story aspect .... I remember a report that even Sanderson was unsure of how to make the epilouge "Make sense" 

[Agitel]

46 minutes ago, Ralph said:

I am no man is in the books, just not that she says it herself.

 

She says it in the books, just in a more elevated way.

 

Quote

It seemed that Dernhelm laughed.... 'But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.'

 

Jackson tended to make things more rule of cool than the books, but I feel that Eowyn in this scene was more amazing in the books than in the movie. The whole section is pretty great at length, but no reason to quote it all.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Agitel

[Arthellion]

11 minutes ago, Agitel said:

but will probably have minimal impact on character and plot arcs.

 

This is all getting speculative, though.

Honestly this is my hope.

 

I'm hoping that the thing we've spent hours and forums pages on just turns out to be....irrelevant and it's never really mentioned in the show. We still get the great story beats and characterizations of our protagonists, but no sermonizing or deep dives into this metaphysical lore. 

[Wraith235]

17 minutes ago, Agitel said:

You could represent characters who have gender dysphoria/identify as the opposite sex/gender in a world with Jordan's gender essentialism. However, it seems like the showrunners are tossing out the book's philosophy on gender essentialism and replacing it with a different view of gender identity, which is more than only adding representation If so, that is a major change to the worldbuilding and Jordan's motifs (and we don't know if this is something Jordan would agree with,  but keep in mind Rafe is trying to promote a product to all sides), but will probably have minimal impact on character and plot arcs.

 

except that the Notes that were handed over to sanderson were "EXTENSIVE" and included full dossiers on even Minor characters 
I know Ive stated this with no corroborating evidence several times due to the fact that it was in a panel with him at a convention at the davis convention center in utah ....and no I don't know if there were characters who suffered (aside from maybe Ari'ngar for obvious reasons) that would be a question for Sanderson to go through the Boxes and boxes to see if it exists

Edited November 11, 2021 by Wraith235

[TheDreadReader]

Just now, Wraith235 said:

except that the Notes that were handed over to sanderson were "EXTENSIVE" and included full dossiers on even Mionor charachters 
I know Ive stated this with no cooroberating evidence due to the fact that it was in a pannel with him at a convention at the davis convention center in utah ....

 

And, both Brandon and Team Jordan are involved and have some input into the show's production.  It is entirely possible that Rafe has all those same notes or some version of them.

 

We do know that the show has extensive reference material given out to cast/crew about the various places in the show and they have a person who's entire job is focused on those things.

 

It's a absence of evidence/evidence of absence kind of thing.

 

[Elder_Haman]

27 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Brandon Sanderson can barely write straight characters, let along gay ones. This doesn't have anything to do with anything, but I had to take the opportunity to dig at the worst popular author fantasy has ever seen.

That’s just insulting. Many people here enjoy Sanderson and think he is the one of the best fantasy authors in the business. 

[MasterAblar]

4 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I guess it kinda comes down to what you mean by "faithful". I think the show will keep the same plot arcs for most of the main characters. So you'll see Rand defeat the forces of the shadow at Tarwin's Gap; be named Car'a'carn; Callandor and the fall of the Stone; Dumai's Wells; the Cleansing; Natrin's Barrow; etc. Other characters will hit their comparable story beats.

 

In between those beats, I think we are going to see quite a bit of "new" stuff. Different dialogue, different timing, perhaps differently motivated external characters. These different scenes will be set against backdrops we are familiar with and include important characters from the books. 

 

I think Rafe's goal is to tell a very character-focused story, like Jordan did. But without the ability for us to live in the character's heads the way we can on the page, he and the writers are going to build new scenes so that we can understand the characters' motivations in a way that feels real and organic. 

 

I'm sure he'll hit the principal beats of the story for the most part. That's fantastic. But at the end of the day if he's uncomfortable with male/female dichotomy of the world, I can hardly trust that he won't change anything else.

 

Virtually everything to do with the One Power is different between men and women. Where does he go with that? Can men form circles now? Are women and men stronger in different elements? Are their weaves still completely different? Are men still generally strong but women generally more accurate with their weaves? What about saidar and saidin that's a pretty clear split along binary lines right?

 

Sure for plenty of those it wasn't necessary to go into detail so it might not even appear in the show. But the same could be said for souls. It wasn't necessary. But they changed it anyway.

 

So yes the show might be great and most of the plot points will probably still be the same, and generally speaking the story will be very similar. But at the end of the day if they feel something was ok for the 90's but not ok for now (according to them), then that's up for potential change.

[Wraith235]

6 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

And, both Brandon and Team Jordan are involved and have some input into the show's production.  It is entirely possible that Rafe has all those same notes or some version of them.

 

We do know that the show has extensive reference material given out to cast/crew about the various places in the show and they have a person who's entire job is focused on those things.

 

It's a absence of evidence/evidence of absence kind of thing.

 

there is a quote somewhere that Rafe Threw out what sanderson said wouldnt work for the Story and said "Were doing it anyway" - Id have to find the quote but Ive read it in the las 10 hours

[DaddyFinn]

Just now, Wraith235 said:

there is a quote somewhere that Rafe Threw out what sanderson said wouldnt work for the Story and said "Were doing it anyway" - Id have to find the quote but Ive read it in the las 10 hours

Rafe is the showrunner. Sanderson is a consultant. Rafe does not have to change everything that Sanderson suggests. Otherwise Sanderson might as well take the showrunner mantle on his shoulders.

 

I really liked the last three books. They were a breeze of fresh air.

[Skipp]

4 minutes ago, Wraith235 said:

there is a quote somewhere that Rafe Threw out what sanderson said wouldnt work for the Story and said "Were doing it anyway" - Id have to find the quote but Ive read it in the las 10 hours

The actual quote is a "little" less hostile than you are making it out to be.

 

"Brandon is super honest, saying, ‘I don’t think this works, for this reason,’ and then I’m like ‘OK I have to pay serious attention to this.’ And then there have been times to where I’m like, ‘No, this is why we’re doing it. It’s a choice and I actually think it really works and it’s going to work for us long-term.’ And then we agree to disagree on it."

[Ralph]

6 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

I'm sure he'll hit the principal beats of the story for the most part. That's fantastic. But at the end of the day if he's uncomfortable with male/female dichotomy of the world, I can hardly trust that he won't change anything else.

 

Virtually everything to do with the One Power is different between men and women. Where does he go with that? Can men form circles now? Are women and men stronger in different elements? Are their weaves still completely different? Are men still generally strong but women generally more accurate with their weaves? What about saidar and saidin that's a pretty clear split along binary lines right?

 

Sure for plenty of those it wasn't necessary to go into detail so it might not even appear in the show. But the same could be said for souls. It wasn't necessary. But they changed it anyway.

 

So yes the show might be great and most of the plot points will probably still be the same, and generally speaking the story will be very similar. But at the end of the day if they feel something was ok for the 90's but not ok for now (according to them), then that's up for potential change.

But again we don't know whether "he's uncomfortable with male/female dichotomy of the World." We only know that he is uncomfortable with it being absolute

[Wraith235]

Just now, Skipp said:

The actual quote is a "little" less hostile than you are making it out to be.

 

"Brandon is super honest, saying, ‘I don’t think this works, for this reason,’ and then I’m like ‘OK I have to pay serious attention to this.’ And then there have been times to where I’m like, ‘No, this is why we’re doing it. It’s a choice and I actually think it really works and it’s going to work for us long-term.’ And then we agree to disagree on it."

wasnt intending to make it hostile just summerizing it because I didnt have the quote in hand 

however saying "‘No, this is why we’re doing it. It’s a choice and I actually think it really works and it’s going to work for us long-term.’ And then we agree to disagree on it." is basically throwing throwing it out

and I would be VERY Curious on what that was about .... 

[Wraith235]

1 minute ago, Ralph said:

But again we don't know whether "he's uncomfortable with male/female dichotomy of the World." We only know that he is uncomfortable with it being absolute

and the Absoluteness is the Core of the world

[Ralph]

Just now, Wraith235 said:

wasnt intending to make it hostile just summerizing it because I didnt have the quote in hand 

however saying "‘No, this is why we’re doing it. It’s a choice and I actually think it really works and it’s going to work for us long-term.’ And then we agree to disagree on it." is basically throwing throwing it out

and I would be VERY Curious on what that was about .... 

Yes, but he has also said he always takes it seriously, and usually takes it on

[TheDreadReader]

4 minutes ago, Wraith235 said:

there is a quote somewhere that Rafe Threw out what sanderson said wouldnt work for the Story and said "Were doing it anyway" - Id have to find the quote but Ive read it in the las 10 hours

 

Yes.  I commented on it yesterday too.

 

I suspect that BS could tell Rafe to pound sand if BS was in the process of writing new WOT material for publication and Rafe asked him to change something for "tv show" reasons.

 

In terms of relationship to RJ's creation they are basically at a equivalent level.  One was "hired" to complete the series in book form.  The other was "hired" to adapt the series in a tv show.   Neither one of them is RJ himself.  

 

The fact that BS and Team Jordan are involved in the show's production is a good thing.